778 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

All important things to discuss, but also to realize that there are absolutely easy solutions (such as pugs having their own sets of worlds to fight over, and those paths not crossing.) These are solvable problems.

It's ridiculous to get too worked up about a design that was mentioned only in what, half a dozen <140char tweets? Obviously we don't have all the details, and it's going to be talked about in the Town Hall. So, posts like these, discussions like these are good to have, so we can present those possibilities there - or maybe not have to at all, because many of them are likely already accounted for.

I'm not saying you're doing this, but there's so much OMG THE SKY IS FALLING here, and it's ridiculous. It's not like we have a full design doc to tear apart; we've got a couple bloody tweets. I get PGI's track record with these things, but we can't get too worked up about it until we know details. Assuming that those details don't exist at all when all we have to go on is a couple late night tweets is silly.

The big problem is there is no basis for faith in PGI actually making smart decisions. Historical data all points to PGI releasing the terrible idea, it being broke as ****, working terrible and being ignored for 18 months. People get crazy over this because there is no reason at all in any way to believe that PGI will actually fix it before 2018 or so, maybe never. It'll just be 'the new way of things' and it'll be more broken than it was before.

I've put forward a lot of solutions. You remove direct competition from solo queue and unit queue and you create a solid method for new players and inexperienced players to get introduced to CW. You provide the right motivations and in unit queue units themselves will chase and fight each other for the best rewards and you make sure that smaller units get a chance to bite off an equivalent sized piece of 'the pie' and you allow for more smaller units.

If, however, rewards for taking worlds are 'all or nothing' you eliminate any point of smaller units who will either quit or just sync together in pug queue. The idea that people will just break up big units and, what, play against each other or all the small units will just dissolve to go join big units so they can actually get tags is so obliviously stupid it reminds me of the 1800s view of pregnancy. A bunch of guys who quite possibly had never seen a woman naked and certainly never seen a naked pregnant woman declared that when a woman is pregnant the baby travels through her body in the circulatory system. Why? Because they were just making assumptions about something they actually knew nothing, at all, about. It is so stupid you want to just face palm.

That's the fear. That PGI is going to pull a huge nutty here and just do it because they are so utterly and completely oblivious to how and why people play. It would not be the first time. They'll do it, then ignore it (maybe a couple largely irrelevant cosmetic changes) for a year or two.

[TLBFestus]

Mystere, on 15 January 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

PGI is potentially sabotaging their own original goals by creating a solo queue.

You could have said this 3 years, 2 years, 18 months ago and it would still be relevant.

They've proven repeatedly in the past that goals are just that, goals. They have no problem moving the goalposts which, if you take time to think about it are really just "pillars".

[MischiefSC]

TB Xiomburg, on 15 January 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

I for one, am happy to throw the -MS-, 228, AWOL seal-hunt...I mean...overlords to fight amongst themselves finally.

You mean fight against pugs with unit tags from the 30 or 40 other smaller units? Which is what you're talking about. Yeah, those bunch of total ********, getting good at the game and playing to win. TOTALLY RUINS IT FOR EVERYONE ELSE.

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

Remember, Sandpit, your experience is not normal for MWO, and doesn't exist for most factions.

There are other changes coming along with phase three, that adjust the number of attack paths, specifically to fix wait time issues. Currently, there are way too many buckets open resulting in huge wait times. Russ talked (briefly) about those changes a while ago. Players don't understand how to read the map - and there's nothing to teach them. Having all those open attack vectors that rely on random people just guessing the right way to go doesn't work well. Populations are way too small.

So, wait times are already an issue being addressed. Lets see how that helps.

Unit wait time may go down, because of the new attack path limitations, even though there will be fewer players in the unit queue simply by nature of splitting the existing pool, but splitting in half then focusing into just a couple vectors will probably make a better experience for everyone.

I know this
I also know I personally collaborate with several other unit and faction members. I know what their experiences are. I know how what their TS servers look like.

Marik is one of the smallest out there to be honest. The others will ahve even less difficulty doing what I said we do.

[Sandpit]

TB Xiomburg, on 15 January 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

It is easy to find groups if your into the game, and I mean more than the casual player who puts in under 10 hours a week, maybe even 20 hours.

The issue is that the majority of the new players will only put so much time in before giving up.

As for queue times, you will see a large increase in time between matches for certain factions until larger teams decide to split up. The main problem there is that large groups do not want competition and would rather fight scrubs/lesser units to farm points and obtain planets.

Until the limits are placed on unit size or the maximum number of players that can be associated with a house/clan, this will continue.

it's called faction chat
plain and simple

I'm casual
ALmost every single member of Marik is casual. I go days without being able to drop sometimes. The "casual" excuse is nothing more than that, an excuse.

If I can jump on to faction chat in one of, if not THE smallest factions in teh entire game (note I said faction, not group or unit) and put together as 12man team to drop in CW in under 10 minutes then anyone can.

Sorry, the casual, PUG, solo, etc. excuses don't wash with me because I play in the exact same way, as do several others in this very thread.

Again, the misconceptions, misinformation, negative propaganda, etc. that surrounds units, groups, etc. are astounding. The is the ONLY game community I have EVER seen that actively tries to prevent organized groups from being more involved in the community as a whole and purposefully goes out of its way to paint such a negative picture of groups of friends just trying to play a game.

EDIT

Sandpit, on 15 January 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

Even if I agreed with that, which I don't, this change would do nothing to prevent that.
How hard is it for a group like MS to come up with smaller sub factions?
Or any other large group?
RMA
RMA1
RMA2
RMA3
RMA4

I can easily create an alt for each of those units and create those units. Doesn't matter that the player account attached to them is broke. You ahve unit coffers.

So now, the same owner still owns every one of those units
The same owner controls every one of thsoe units

Now they simply promote another player to general and bam, they've got their sub-unit commander/leader/president/whatever
all under the same original leadership and control

It solves none of the issues it's claiming to solve.
None

That's the major issue I have with it right off the bat.

tell me again how this fix solves any kind og negative issues in regards to large units again?

Edited by Sandpit, 15 January 2016 - 03:38 PM.

[Wintersdark]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 03:31 PM, said:

The big problem is there is no basis for faith in PGI actually making smart decisions. Historical data all points to PGI releasing the terrible idea, it being broke as ****, working terrible and being ignored for 18 months. People get crazy over this because there is no reason at all in any way to believe that PGI will actually fix it before 2018 or so, maybe never. It'll just be 'the new way of things' and it'll be more broken than it was before.

I've put forward a lot of solutions. You remove direct competition from solo queue and unit queue and you create a solid method for new players and inexperienced players to get introduced to CW. You provide the right motivations and in unit queue units themselves will chase and fight each other for the best rewards and you make sure that smaller units get a chance to bite off an equivalent sized piece of 'the pie' and you allow for more smaller units.

If, however, rewards for taking worlds are 'all or nothing' you eliminate any point of smaller units who will either quit or just sync together in pug queue. The idea that people will just break up big units and, what, play against each other or all the small units will just dissolve to go join big units so they can actually get tags is so obliviously stupid it reminds me of the 1800s view of pregnancy. A bunch of guys who quite possibly had never seen a woman naked and certainly never seen a naked pregnant woman declared that when a woman is pregnant the baby travels through her body in the circulatory system. Why? Because they were just making assumptions about something they actually knew nothing, at all, about. It is so stupid you want to just face palm.

That's the fear. That PGI is going to pull a huge nutty here and just do it because they are so utterly and completely oblivious to how and why people play. It would not be the first time. They'll do it, then ignore it (maybe a couple largely irrelevant cosmetic changes) for a year or two.

Probably.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

Probably.

No. It's more than likely.

Track record doesn't lie.

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 15 January 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

No. It's more than likely.

Track record doesn't lie.

Which is why I refuse to take the "sit quietly and wait" format again. I did that for
CB
OB
"Launch"
Solo queue
Group restrictions
CW
CW Phase 1
CW Phase 2

Every single time it's turned out even worse than originally thought.
every time
Good will and hopeful?
sure all the way

Faith in their ability to understand their community and how to build those things?
None
sorry, not until they've got actual proof showing otherwise. Faith requires belief, and my belief is that PGI is making a huge mistake with this train of thought

[Xiomburg]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 03:31 PM, said:

The big problem is there is no basis for faith in PGI actually making smart decisions. Historical data all points to PGI releasing the terrible idea, it being broke as ****, working terrible and being ignored for 18 months. People get crazy over this because there is no reason at all in any way to believe that PGI will actually fix it before 2018 or so, maybe never. It'll just be 'the new way of things' and it'll be more broken than it was before.

Your lack of faith is disturbing and shows that your not following the game really well. As a few examples:

1. PGI changed the way matchmaker worked so noobs won't ever face off against expert players. This creates a much better learning experience.
2. PGI added quirks to the game to balance out Inner Sphere and Clan 'Mechs (even giving some quirks to Clanner 'mechs to bring them up to par as well.
3. PGI tested Laser changes, and saw the effect of them...and did not implement them.
4. Changed the GUI in their game for the better, multiple times, to the awesome one that we have now (and is still an ongoing improvement).
5. PGI was told that they don't listen the community enough. They created alternate paths that customers can reach out to them (twitter, Facebook, NGNG, and so on) and started streaming dev games on twich.

Your perception and prejudices of PGI is jaded from issues way back when. If you look at all the improvements and reaching out that PGI has done over the last year it is far more than what has occcured the first 18 months of the game.

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 03:31 PM, said:

I've put forward a lot of solutions. You remove direct competition from solo queue and unit queue and you create a solid method for new players and inexperienced players to get introduced to CW. You provide the right motivations and in unit queue units themselves will chase and fight each other for the best rewards and you make sure that smaller units get a chance to bite off an equivalent sized piece of 'the pie' and you allow for more smaller units.

Your ideas might still be implemented, sorry to hear that you feel rejected.

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 03:31 PM, said:

If, however, rewards for taking worlds are 'all or nothing' you eliminate any point of smaller units who will either quit or just sync together in pug queue. The idea that people will just break up big units and, what, play against each other or all the small units will just dissolve to go join big units so they can actually get tags is so obliviously stupid it reminds me of the 1800s view of pregnancy. A bunch of guys who quite possibly had never seen a woman naked and certainly never seen a naked pregnant woman declared that when a woman is pregnant the baby travels through her body in the circulatory system. Why? Because they were just making assumptions about something they actually knew nothing, at all, about. It is so stupid you want to just face palm.

I am in agreement with PGI on this. If your a small group going up against large groups like 228, -MS- and the like, your nothing more than a slightly stronger PUG. You will be face rolled faster then Phillip J Fry trying to get a date with Leela Turanga. Then of course, you will be here on the forums and twitter complaining about that.

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 03:31 PM, said:

That's the fear. That PGI is going to pull a huge nutty here and just do it because they are so utterly and completely oblivious to how and why people play. It would not be the first time. They'll do it, then ignore it (maybe a couple largely irrelevant cosmetic changes) for a year or two.

Maybe...you should take off the blinders and understand that they have the data that might support their decision to make this change?

[MischiefSC]

Clan mechs/Clan tech

How long as CW been out and had no purpose?

When we CW supposed to be released?

ECM/missiles/et al?

Have you ever played MW:O?

[Xiomburg]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

You mean fight against pugs with unit tags from the 30 or 40 other smaller units? Which is what you're talking about. Yeah, those bunch of total ********, getting good at the game and playing to win. TOTALLY RUINS IT FOR EVERYONE ELSE.

Your partially correct here. Though your post reflects your lack of understanding. They understand that the casual player wants to play Community Warfare and not be seal slapped by larger units. If the casual player wants to join a unit and go into the group queue, then all the power to them.

This is a way for lone wolves, small units and the like to enjoy what community warfare has to offer. Instead of feeding the empty souls of seal stompers.

[Sandpit]

TB Xiomburg, on 15 January 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

Maybe...you should take off the blinders and understand that they have the data that might support their decision to make this change?

some of you need to take off the blinders and stop acting like the numerous exploits, loopholes, issues, roflstomps, etc. that we've pointed out can't, don't, or won't exist.

[Xiomburg]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

Clan mechs/Clan tech

How long as CW been out and had no purpose?

When we CW supposed to be released?

ECM/missiles/et al?

Have you ever played MW:O?

ECM is undergoing changes.

Missiles will change when the ECM is changed.

Clan Tech is lore based and IS quirks were added to balance.

CW is a based on getting planets for your faction, getting free stuff (with ranks) and playing on large maps based on objectives that need to be met to win.

I started playing MW:O when it was first released in Beta.

I am just stating your being jaded and not looking at all the improvements that have been done. Your only focusing on the negative things that YOU don't like.

Just because you don't like some of the changes, doesn't mean that they are not improvements and others don't like them.

[wanderer]

Quote

If the casual player wants to join a unit and go into the group queue, then all the power to them.

It isn't "solo" and "group" queues in CW. It'll be "Has no unit tag" or "Has unit tag".

For example, I have no unit tag (on purpose, because I end up playing with as many Liao units as possible and hate politics). I can cheerfully get into a 12-man group of fellow tagless accounts on our House TS and club seals all day every day.

Likewise, someone with a unit tag will end up shunted into that queue, regardless of them being solo or 12-sized group or anything between.

[MischiefSC]

TB Xiomburg, on 15 January 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

Your partially correct here. Though your post reflects your lack of understanding. They understand that the casual player wants to play Community Warfare and not be seal slapped by larger units. If the casual player wants to join a unit and go into the group queue, then all the power to them.

This is a way for lone wolves, small units and the like to enjoy what community warfare has to offer. Instead of feeding the empty souls of seal stompers.

I like how you pretend that anyone who is good at the game is a 'seal stomper'.

I get that you don't really understand how people work, how the game works or the history of it and compensate by leading with 'you don't understand the game'. It's called projection and it is probably how you deal with most the stuff you don't understand in life. That's cool, nobody is going to be able to fix you on a gaming forum.

If you'd actually read the thread and posts you'd know most of us are solid with a pug queue that lets people migrate, if they wish, into the unit queue. You just need to make sure the results of those queues don't compete. If you'd ever played CW you'd know that the 'baby seals' being clubbed are largely tagged unit members dropping solo and that pug teams beat premade teams often enough. The fact that the best teams beat everyone who isn't another team of their caliber isn't some game flaw, it's a result of having a real sandbox game environment.

[Sandpit]

wanderer, on 15 January 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

It isn't "solo" and "group" queues in CW. It'll be "Has no unit tag" or "Has unit tag".

For example, I have no unit tag (on purpose, because I end up playing with as many Liao units as possible and hate politics). I can cheerfully get into a 12-man group of fellow tagless accounts on our House TS and club seals all day every day.

Likewise, someone with a unit tag will end up shunted into that queue, regardless of them being solo or 12-sized group or anything between.

That's exactly what it is
It isn't group vs. solo queues
it tag or no tag queues

Absolutely nothing to stop 12mans without tags rolling through jsut like they do now. Just makes it easier for them to find "victims" now

[Xiomburg]

wanderer, on 15 January 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

It isn't &quot;solo&quot; and &quot;group&quot; queues in CW. It'll be &quot;Has no unit tag&quot; or &quot;Has unit tag&quot;.

For example, I have no unit tag (on purpose, because I end up playing with as many Liao units as possible and hate politics). I can cheerfully get into a 12-man group of fellow tagless accounts on our House TS and club seals all day every day.

Likewise, someone with a unit tag will end up shunted into that queue, regardless of them being solo or 12-sized group or anything between.

I thought it was group queue and solo queue. If it tag queue and no tag queue, that is horrible.

[Mystere]

TLBFestus, on 15 January 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

You could have said this 3 years, 2 years, 18 months ago and it would still be relevant.

They've proven repeatedly in the past that goals are just that, goals. They have no problem moving the goalposts which, if you take time to think about it are really just "pillars".

Please don't try to depress me. It's a weekend.

[wanderer]

Eeyup. It does nothing for the problem and actually makes the solution (at least the one we use in Liao, leavening our unit queues with PUGs to reduce potential seal clubbing grounds) impossible- tagless players will never see units unless people literally go in with an untagged account and recruit them.

And of course, the obvious result will be players hungry for games that want the largest queue...and hence will conquer planets with detagged accounts, following up with a token unit attack to "sign" a planet as the "largest contributor".

You'd think they could even possibly do something with CW rank, but noooooo...

[Mystere]

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

... There IS such an option. Make a unit. Just for yourself.

Now you're in the unit CW queue.

You do not understand, I want to swim in both.

AdamBaines, on 15 January 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Good lord...21 pages already......rage from all sides......

Rage? Hardly. At the very least I am not seeing anything remotely close to the forum meltdowns created by ECM, LRMs, and 3PV.