778 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:

The reality is that a massive number don't, and won't. You can just say screw them, but you need them. You need them to enjoy playing solo, but to see that there are increased rewards in a unit - THAT is how you incentivize their joining units. But you still need them able to have a fun solo experience, or nobody will stick around to find out.
.

PUB queues

That's what it's there for
Faction chat
Marik new players are welcomed, joined, and assisted by units in Marik. We don't seem to be having those issues with new players that everyone else is talking about.

Think it might have to do with the environment WE as players in the faction chat help foster as opposed to anything PGI is ever going to be able to do to offer "incentives"? Know what the new players that come drop with us have for incentives?
Fun
less stomps
more information
FRIENDLY advice and environment

The ones that don't want that? No biggy, keep dropping and thinking you're going to solo your way to victory against 12 other "robots" and/or drop in the PUB queue.

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 15 January 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

https://twitter.com/...749292447023105

That's the plan for that.
What's to stop them from creating alts?

I'm going to pick the 12man (insert just about any unit you want here) in trial mechs to win over
Random group of pugs and new players in various mechs

Every single time. So this protects, enhances, and improves CW for new and solop layers how exactly?

That's the part I keep missing somehow. I fail to see where this idea improves or fixes any of that.

Because why? If you log in as solo players, cannot flip the planet your unit is fighting on, cannot help your unit get that planet flagged to gain the extra rewards. So you can flip a planet for your faction, and your alts can make some money. You can't transfer that money to your main. Your alts don't actually accomplish anything that matters that you couldn't have done on your main. What do you accomplish? Why did alts actually help, when simply winning more matches on your mains would make you more money overall?

[Wintersdark]

Mystere, on 15 January 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

You are correct that there is no mention of a PSR-based matchmaker ... yet! But, I do predict that a number of people will start loudly demanding one once they've been chomped on often enough like fresh bloody meat by the piranhas playing amongst them.

We don't have one first and foremost because it's impossible, not because they don't want one - despite what's said often.

We can never have PSR based matchmaking in CW, there just aren't enough people. There's only barely enough players for PSR in the solo quick play queue; the group queue IS too small for PSR to work reliably.

Quote

Yes, if there will be a separate solo queue in CW, I want solos to be given the option of dropping on the group queue if they so desire. Otherwise, what's the point of the "Lone Wolf" category.

... There IS such an option. Make a unit. Just for yourself.

Now you're in the unit CW queue.

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

Because why? If you log in as solo players, cannot flip the planet

Because, according to PGI specifically, this change is coming about to stop big units from rolling up solo and new players not in units.
Specifically

That's what this entire queue sep is based around fixing. That much we can accept correct? WIthout knowing anything else about this, we know that factually this is why it's being implemented because this is what PGI has stated.

Working on that premise, do you really think the griefers and large units whos individual players have millions upon millions of cbills, not counting the hundreds of millions in unit coffers care?
Do you really think the players that play to grief new and solo players care about flipping planets? Their sole enjoyment comes from rolling up those players, not from flipping planets and actually participating in CW.
Those players are going to care less about having to create an alt and not being able to flip planets.

So again, what exactly does it fix?

EDIT:
On top of all of that, what, exactly, is there to stop a unit member from creating an alt, being able to pull out 2 million cbills, set up a good CW drop deck, then drop out of the unit and start dropping in the tagless queue?

Don't use the "well unit leaders won't let it happen" excuse, because the units and players this "fix" is designed to prevent doing this are going to do just that.

So again, what does this actually fix?

Edited by Sandpit, 15 January 2016 - 02:56 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 15 January 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

PUB queues

That's what it's there for
Faction chat
Marik new players are welcomed, joined, and assisted by units in Marik. We don't seem to be having those issues with new players that everyone else is talking about.

Because that's not the norm, and clearly relying on the players in each of the factions to do it isn't going to cut it.

Please, try to understand what I'm saying. I get that pub queues are there for those people. That doesn't matter. Faction play IS there, they have access to it right from Day One, and it's basically viewed as "The Real Game".

Making minigames for other people (how it's viewed) doesn't cut it. You'd need to fully lock them out of Faction Warfare until they met certain criteria for this to hold up. Hell, simply don't allow players not in units to play. Because without that, it's just another game mode and will be viewed as the main game mode because it's persistent and more complex.

Quote

Think it might have to do with the environment WE as players in the faction chat help foster as opposed to anything PGI is ever going to be able to do to offer "incentives"? Know what the new players that come drop with us have for incentives?
Fun
less stomps
more information
FRIENDLY advice and environment

The ones that don't want that? No biggy, keep dropping and thinking you're going to solo your way to victory against 12 other "robots" and/or drop in the PUB queue.

Nice, but showing a total lack of understanding of how players will act. PGI is a business, and in order to have a sustainable environment, must design the game by how people will act, not how you want them to act. That, my friend, is necessary.

Otherwise, we wouldn't have to have server side authentication and all the HSR requirements and lag shields and whatnot, we could just have client side authentication and have perfect hit registration all the time. Except people are stupid, and there are lots of people who just want to break things. So, we have to accept compromises to make it work.

Not that these solo puggies are trying to break anything, but... PGI needs to give solo players a good experience in CW, as long as they're able to play in CW. You don't make a successful game from having half of it just suck for more than half the players.

[MischiefSC]

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

Because why? If you log in as solo players, cannot flip the planet your unit is fighting on, cannot help your unit get that planet flagged to gain the extra rewards. So you can flip a planet for your faction, and your alts can make some money. You can't transfer that money to your main. Your alts don't actually accomplish anything that matters that you couldn't have done on your main. What do you accomplish? Why did alts actually help, when simply winning more matches on your mains would make you more money overall?

Million ways to exploit it if tags give MC. For one thing if you just want to expand your factions border or DENY tags to another unit/faction you don't drop in the unit queue so they have to eat ghost drops for 4 hours while you farm wins in the pug queue.

So if I take a world with my unit and put my tag on it and the world gets taken by the pug queue, is the tag removed completely or does my tag stay on it?

Just start thinking down that route and you'll see the problem. What you do in that instance is create numerous reasons for people to have alts and farm wins in the pug queue to flip worlds or help flip worlds. Does pug/group queue all play on the same world? In that case if 228 is attacking, all units switch to pug alts so 228 eats ghost drops and you sync drop (impossible not to do for IS vs IS especially) in pug queue to beat the other side without ever having to face 228 - who can either give it up as lost or switch to pug alts if they have them, in which case you've got a world flipped in pug queue only with pugs getting demolished by sync dropping units. Or I sync with alts to strip another units tags so they don't get rewards after they switch factions, etc. etc. etc.

You create countless exploits that especially for the big units with a lot of members will make gaming the MC reward for tags a game in and of itself that only the big comp teams can win and will absolutely **** the pug queue, and in passing the unit queue for anyone who isn't in a big comp unit.

The whole concept as we've heard (which is however limited and hopefully incomplete) sounds a lot like feeding a dozen 8 year olds nothing but sugary soda and cookies for an afternoon, then leaving them locked in a room with a bag of rusty razor blades and loaded tasers. You're pretty much paying units to absolutely **** the game at that point.

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

Because that's not the norm, and clearly relying on the players in each of the factions to do it isn't going to cut it.

Please, try to understand what I'm saying. I get that pub queues are there for those people. That doesn't matter. Faction play IS there, they have access to it right from Day One, and it's basically viewed as "The Real Game".

Making minigames for other people (how it's viewed) doesn't cut it. You'd need to fully lock them out of Faction Warfare until they met certain criteria for this to hold up. Hell, simply don't allow players not in units to play. Because without that, it's just another game mode and will be viewed as the main game mode because it's persistent and more complex.



Nice, but showing a total lack of understanding of how players will act. PGI is a business, and in order to have a sustainable environment, must design the game by how people will act, not how you want them to act. That, my friend, is necessary.

Otherwise, we wouldn't have to have server side authentication and all the HSR requirements and lag shields and whatnot, we could just have client side authentication and have perfect hit registration all the time. Except people are stupid, and there are lots of people who just want to break things. So, we have to accept compromises to make it work.

Not that these solo puggies are trying to break anything, but... PGI needs to give solo players a good experience in CW, as long as they're able to play in CW. You don't make a successful game from having half of it just suck for more than half the players.

interesting
it still didn't answer the question

How exactly does this "fix" actually fix any of the things PGI is claiming it will.

That's the one and simple question I'm waiting to hear and answer about.

Based on what we know and have seen it quite simply does NOT fix those issues.
In any way
It doesn't even mitigate or curb them. It actually enhances the ease of being able to do it.

So again, until someone answers it, what exactly does this fix?

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 15 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Because, according to PGI specifically, this change is coming about to stop big units from rolling up solo and new players not in units.
Specifically

That's what this entire queue sep is based around fixing. That much we can accept correct? WIthout knowing anything else about this, we know that factually this is why it's being implemented because this is what PGI has stated.

Working on that premise, do you really think the griefers and large units whos individual players have millions upon millions of cbills, not counting the hundreds of millions in unit coffers care?
Do you really think the players that play to grief new and solo players care about flipping planets? Their sole enjoyment comes from rolling up those players, not from flipping planets and actually participating in CW.
Those players are going to care less about having to create an alt and not being able to flip planets.

So again, what exactly does it fix?

EDIT:
On top of all of that, what, exactly, is there to stop a unit member from creating an alt, being able to pull out 2 million cbills, set up a good CW drop deck, then drop out of the unit and start dropping in the tagless queue?

Don't use the "well unit leaders won't let it happen" excuse, because the units and players this "fix" is designed to prevent doing this are going to do just that.

So again, what does this actually fix?

Because this is to stop pug stomping, but most pug stomping is unintended. Not all - we all know there are ******* in the world, but most is indeed unintended. You cannot choose to NOT stomp pugs in CW. Get in there with your unit, and you ARE going to crush puggies whether that's your intent or not.

These changes ensure that you have to go way out of your way to stomp puggies - alt accounts, dropping unit/rejoining unit (at a loss, mind you, or at least earning less profit than normal play). These things will reduce pugstomping.

They will, because *most* players aren't going to go way out of their way and gain less to screw with poor newbies. Some will - some always will. But way, way fewer are going to do it when they have an alternative that's more profitable.


For example, if I drop solo right now, I'm a hell of a shark in the queue when matched against these newbie pugs. I make a tremendous amount of money, and typically pull upwards of half the teams kills on my own. I can't choose not to do this.

After this change, because I have unit tags, I'll be in the unit queue. I'll gain more because of the extra unit bonuses, so I'll be reluctant to leave just to spend more time as a shark in the minnow pool, because that gameplay isn't that nice (I'd really rather NOT drop into teams with 6 trial mechs, after all).

After this, you'll have to go way out of your way, not pugstomp as the default and unavoidable option.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 03:02 PM, said:

Million ways to exploit it if tags give MC. For one thing if you just want to expand your factions border or DENY tags to another unit/faction you don't drop in the unit queue so they have to eat ghost drops for 4 hours while you farm wins in the pug queue.

So if I take a world with my unit and put my tag on it and the world gets taken by the pug queue, is the tag removed completely or does my tag stay on it?

Just start thinking down that route and you'll see the problem. What you do in that instance is create numerous reasons for people to have alts and farm wins in the pug queue to flip worlds or help flip worlds. Does pug/group queue all play on the same world? In that case if 228 is attacking, all units switch to pug alts so 228 eats ghost drops and you sync drop (impossible not to do for IS vs IS especially) in pug queue to beat the other side without ever having to face 228 - who can either give it up as lost or switch to pug alts if they have them, in which case you've got a world flipped in pug queue only with pugs getting demolished by sync dropping units. Or I sync with alts to strip another units tags so they don't get rewards after they switch factions, etc. etc. etc.

You create countless exploits that especially for the big units with a lot of members will make gaming the MC reward for tags a game in and of itself that only the big comp teams can win and will absolutely **** the pug queue, and in passing the unit queue for anyone who isn't in a big comp unit.

The whole concept as we've heard (which is however limited and hopefully incomplete) sounds a lot like feeding a dozen 8 year olds nothing but sugary soda and cookies for an afternoon, then leaving them locked in a room with a bag of rusty razor blades and loaded tasers. You're pretty much paying units to absolutely **** the game at that point.

What's really sad?
In less than 24 hours 4-5 players have given dozens of examples of how this can and will be exploited.
24 hours

PGI has been developing this for months, if not years.

I understand no system will ever completely solve issues like these, but if a few players just thinking outside the box and casually conversing about it can come up with that many exploits and loopholes to the "fix", dont' you think those groups everyone is complaining about and causing the grief in the first place aren't dedicating even more time and thought on how to exploit the system?
How does that happen?

Creating major game changes in a vacuum.

[Wintersdark]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 03:02 PM, said:

Million ways to exploit it if tags give MC. For one thing if you just want to expand your factions border or DENY tags to another unit/faction you don't drop in the unit queue so they have to eat ghost drops for 4 hours while you farm wins in the pug queue.

So if I take a world with my unit and put my tag on it and the world gets taken by the pug queue, is the tag removed completely or does my tag stay on it?

Just start thinking down that route and you'll see the problem. What you do in that instance is create numerous reasons for people to have alts and farm wins in the pug queue to flip worlds or help flip worlds. Does pug/group queue all play on the same world? In that case if 228 is attacking, all units switch to pug alts so 228 eats ghost drops and you sync drop (impossible not to do for IS vs IS especially) in pug queue to beat the other side without ever having to face 228 - who can either give it up as lost or switch to pug alts if they have them, in which case you've got a world flipped in pug queue only with pugs getting demolished by sync dropping units. Or I sync with alts to strip another units tags so they don't get rewards after they switch factions, etc. etc. etc.

All important things to discuss, but also to realize that there are absolutely easy solutions (such as pugs having their own sets of worlds to fight over, and those paths not crossing.) These are solvable problems.

It's ridiculous to get too worked up about a design that was mentioned only in what, half a dozen <140char tweets? Obviously we don't have all the details, and it's going to be talked about in the Town Hall. So, posts like these, discussions like these are good to have, so we can present those possibilities there - or maybe not have to at all, because many of them are likely already accounted for.

I'm not saying you're doing this, but there's so much OMG THE SKY IS FALLING here, and it's ridiculous. It's not like we have a full design doc to tear apart; we've got a couple bloody tweets. I get PGI's track record with these things, but we can't get too worked up about it until we know details. Assuming that those details don't exist at all when all we have to go on is a couple late night tweets is silly.

[Xiomburg]

I love it.

There are complaints both ways about this, but the main talking point should be this:

Make the game easy to access for new players, don't make it so hard that they will just uninstall the game. This is the main issue that people have been having when going into CW.

I understand that people are upset that this will increase their wait times, and with the limit on clan sizes being implemented soon, this should help resolve that. Unless these clans being reduced in size just keep choosing the same faction.

As for the change, it is about time and should have been this way from the beginning.

[smokefield]

Quote

Do you guys realize that both of these posts are perfectly correct and valid? It's not one side against the other, as much as it can seem that way from either end.

that was exactly my point..thanks for restating that

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

Because this is to stop pug stomping, but most pug stomping is unintended.

It won't stop ANY pug stomping as has been pointed out in several posts in this thread. It actually makes them easier and more common.

So again, what does this fix?

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

These changes ensure that you have to go way out of your way to stomp puggies - alt accounts, dropping unit/rejoining unit (at a loss, mind you, or at least earning less profit than normal play). These things will reduce pugstomping.

Taking 5 minutes to create a new hotmail account and sign up for MWO is hardly what I would call "out of the way"
You literally have HUNDREDS of players who do NOTHING but sit around and play the game and STREAM and RECORD and POST videos of how they exploit the systems PGI puts in place.
You think 5 minutes of their time to create a new account is a deterrent?
That's just naive to me.

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

For example, if I drop solo right now, I'm a hell of a shark in the queue when matched against these newbie pugs. I make a tremendous amount of money, and typically pull upwards of half the teams kills on my own. I can't choose not to do this.

After this change, because I have unit tags, I'll be in the unit queue. I'll gain more because of the extra unit bonuses, so I'll be reluctant to leave just to spend more time as a shark in the minnow pool, because that gameplay isn't that nice (I'd really rather NOT drop into teams with 6 trial mechs, after all).

You will gain more? Can you show me where that's been shown or stated? I ahven't seen anything on it.
YOU will be reluctant to leave.
I will be reluctant to leave.

The players who aren't doing the griefing in the first place won't leave. It changes absolutely positively nothing for those that already participate in this. You're trying to justify it from your sole point of view.

Those of us explaining how it's going to be exploited are trying to explain to you that, above having a LOT more faith in the "good nature" of these scummy type players than I do, they will not CARE about tags, units, cbills fees, etc. because they already don't care.

This isn't going to magically make them care about it now. They only care about rining the game for others and "proving their point" to PGI.
If you operate under ANY kind of notion other than that when it comes to the specific type of player this is designed to deter, then I'm afraid you really don't understand the types of players doing this in the first place.

So again, I ask, what exactly does this fix?

I've pointed out that it doesn't deter, nor matter to the players it's actually trying to deter, the incentives don't matter because they don't care about them in the first place regardless of what they are. I've pointed out that by removing units the only thing they're doing is leaving nothing behind BUT this type of player and new players and the "unwashed masses" of solo players.

What it actually does is give those players a direct, easy to find, exploitable avenue of attack to cause even MORE grief.

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 15 January 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

What's really sad?
In less than 24 hours 4-5 players have given dozens of examples of how this can and will be exploited.
24 hours

PGI has been developing this for months, if not years.

Well, no, this is a reactive change adapting to the situation. It's not like this is the fruit of years of development - software development in a live environment is very unpredictable and needs to be organic and react to what's actually happening. This is a change because more than half the players in Faction Warfare aren't having a good time. That is something that HAS to be addressed. PGI tried to go more heavily unit focused, but it's not working.

These exploits, they're very obvious. As I said above, I get PGI's track record, but I'm going to say most have probably already been thought of. You're acting like the content of the tweet is the full design doc.

[Sandpit]

TB Xiomburg, on 15 January 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

I love it.

There are complaints both ways about this, but the main talking point should be this:

Make the game easy to access for new players, don't make it so hard that they will just uninstall the game. This is the main issue that people have been having when going into CW.

I understand that people are upset that this will increase their wait times, and with the limit on clan sizes being implemented soon, this should help resolve that. Unless these clans being reduced in size just keep choosing the same faction.

As for the change, it is about time and should have been this way from the beginning.

The unit wait times aren't going to go up much if at all. This is what PGI just fails to grasp. Yea, I'm in Marik, yea I'm in RMA, I'm also on a centralized TS server we put up for the public that gives me access to every other unit we have on their and their players as well.

Guess what we do?
We join one of our dedicated CW channels, invite our friends, and drop. It's not hard to put up a 12man for just about any unit out there.
Guess who we see complaining about wait times and such the most?
It's not the units. It's the new players who have no clue how to read the map, queues, etc. and wind up sitting on an empty planet for 30 minutes before quitting.

This won't hurt any wait time except for those now dropping in the "solo" or whatever the hell they want to call it queue.

[Wintersdark]

TB Xiomburg, on 15 January 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

Make the game easy to access for new players, don't make it so hard that they will just uninstall the game. This is the main issue that people have been having when going into CW.

Yup. Telling them "Oh, that's not for you, you can go play in the kiddie pool Quick Play area, Faction Warfare is for us grown ups" isn't a viable business strategy, even if it's a legit answer. It's just not sustainable to push players away.

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

Well, no, this is a reactive change adapting to the situation. It's not like this is the fruit of years of development -

Uhm
that's exactly what it is.
3 years CW has been in development. 2 years it's been in "real" development. 1 year it's been in "beta"
This is exactly the fruit of years of development.

Wintersdark, on 15 January 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

Yup. Telling them "Oh, that's not for you, you can go play in the kiddie pool Quick Play area, Faction Warfare is for us grown ups" isn't a viable business strategy, even if it's a legit answer. It's just not sustainable to push players away.

which is exactly why some of us have come up with viable ways to solve that

[Xiomburg]

I for one, am happy to throw the -MS-, 228, AWOL seal-hunt...I mean...overlords to fight amongst themselves finally.

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 15 January 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

The unit wait times aren't going to go up much if at all. This is what PGI just fails to grasp. Yea, I'm in Marik, yea I'm in RMA, I'm also on a centralized TS server we put up for the public that gives me access to every other unit we have on their and their players as well.

Guess what we do?
We join one of our dedicated CW channels, invite our friends, and drop. It's not hard to put up a 12man for just about any unit out there.
Guess who we see complaining about wait times and such the most?
It's not the units. It's the new players who have no clue how to read the map, queues, etc. and wind up sitting on an empty planet for 30 minutes before quitting.

This won't hurt any wait time except for those now dropping in the "solo" or whatever the hell they want to call it queue.

Remember, Sandpit, your experience is not normal for MWO, and doesn't exist for most factions.

There are other changes coming along with phase three, that adjust the number of attack paths, specifically to fix wait time issues. Currently, there are way too many buckets open resulting in huge wait times. Russ talked (briefly) about those changes a while ago. Players don't understand how to read the map - and there's nothing to teach them. Having all those open attack vectors that rely on random people just guessing the right way to go doesn't work well. Populations are way too small.

So, wait times are already an issue being addressed. Lets see how that helps.

Unit wait time may go down, because of the new attack path limitations, even though there will be fewer players in the unit queue simply by nature of splitting the existing pool, but splitting in half then focusing into just a couple vectors will probably make a better experience for everyone.

[Xiomburg]

Sandpit, on 15 January 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

The unit wait times aren't going to go up much if at all. This is what PGI just fails to grasp. Yea, I'm in Marik, yea I'm in RMA, I'm also on a centralized TS server we put up for the public that gives me access to every other unit we have on their and their players as well.

Guess what we do?
We join one of our dedicated CW channels, invite our friends, and drop. It's not hard to put up a 12man for just about any unit out there.
Guess who we see complaining about wait times and such the most?
It's not the units. It's the new players who have no clue how to read the map, queues, etc. and wind up sitting on an empty planet for 30 minutes before quitting.

This won't hurt any wait time except for those now dropping in the &quot;solo&quot; or whatever the hell they want to call it queue.

It is easy to find groups if your into the game, and I mean more than the casual player who puts in under 10 hours a week, maybe even 20 hours.

The issue is that the majority of the new players will only put so much time in before giving up.

As for queue times, you will see a large increase in time between matches for certain factions until larger teams decide to split up. The main problem there is that large groups do not want competition and would rather fight scrubs/lesser units to farm points and obtain planets.

Until the limits are placed on unit size or the maximum number of players that can be associated with a house/clan, this will continue.