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Let's Talk Light Mechs


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#21 Random Carnage

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 10:56 PM

View PostSQW, on 23 January 2016 - 10:44 PM, said:

It's the assaults' responsibility to be in the center of the push so you don't have to worry about your back CT and it's the rest of the team's responsibility to cover your biggest guns so they can do their job.

This right here tells me you don't understand the role of the assault in MWO. How many Dires have you piloted, ever?

A Dire has no chance to maintain position in the group if (when) that group decide to be someplace else.

Assaults are not designed to lead the push either. They don't have the agility for that ****. Assaults, especially the Dires are fire support. The only Assault with any chance of surviving a push is the recently strengthened Atlas. Mediums should support the heavies in any push, and the assaults (with the exception of the Atlas) should provide fire support.

#22 SQW

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 11:20 PM

View PostRandom Carnage, on 23 January 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

This right here tells me you don't understand the role of the assault in MWO. How many Dires have you piloted, ever?

A Dire has no chance to maintain position in the group if (when) that group decide to be someplace else.

Assaults are not designed to lead the push either. They don't have the agility for that ****. Assaults, especially the Dires are fire support. The only Assault with any chance of surviving a push is the recently strengthened Atlas. Mediums should support the heavies in any push, and the assaults (with the exception of the Atlas) should provide fire support.


Hey, you choose to build a slow, back-of-the-line sniper DWF so it's up to you to stay closer to the group when they shift - even if it means moving from your ideal sniping position. You described your favourite play style and while that might get your a lot of kills without being shot, it also opens you to lights coring your back CT. Risk and reward is fairly balanced I'd say.

#23 Random Carnage

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 11:24 PM

View PostYueFei, on 23 January 2016 - 10:48 PM, said:


You know it's a team game, right?

Even humoring your assertion that 1v1 a Light always beats an Assault at equal skill, this completely fails to hold when it's 12v12. A Light would get into the blindside of one Assault only to be lined up and splattered by another Assault mech standing 150 meters away.

Have you even played a PuG match?

#24 El Bandito

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 11:26 PM

View PostMister D, on 23 January 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

1. Hitreg sucks.
2. Hitreg sucks.
3. Hitreg sucks.



Not only that, most, if not all Light mechs have armor/structure quirks to make them beefier than what is shown on Smurfy, which could be confusing for newer players.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 January 2016 - 01:06 AM.


#25 Random Carnage

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 11:28 PM

View PostSQW, on 23 January 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:


Hey, you choose to build a slow, back-of-the-line sniper DWF so it's up to you to stay closer to the group when they shift - even if it means moving from your ideal sniping position. You described your favourite play style and while that might get your a lot of kills without being shot, it also opens you to lights coring your back CT. Risk and reward is fairly balanced I'd say.

Good god. You know my load out? I take sniper builds do I?

Ok.

#26 AssaultPig

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 11:52 PM

these threads pop up every so often; 'lights too strong, can't hit them, lights OP easymode, etc'

and then lights are (still) lucky to crack double digits in the pubqueue unless they just got released in a mechpack

something doesn't add up

anyway, lights are sometimes hard to shoot because the game uses serverside hitreg and not everybody understands how that works. If you think they're so invincible try driving them for a bit and see how that goes for you.

also it's pretty hard for a light to solo an assault if the assault knows how to counter-turn; you can hurt them a bit but it's hardly an easy kill unless they're 1) already heavily damaged or 2) incompetent

Edited by AssaultPig, 23 January 2016 - 11:53 PM.


#27 Retrospectus

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:02 AM

Aren't lights supposed to be hard counters for assaults? as a light pilot anytime I run into a lonely assault I almost jump for joy. conversely I hate running into heavies because they're quick enough to track me and have enough firepower to really hurt. also many lights perform poorly against other lights in my experience

#28 stjobe

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:31 AM

View PostRetrospectus, on 24 January 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:

Aren't lights supposed to be hard counters for assaults? as a light pilot anytime I run into a lonely assault I almost jump for joy. conversely I hate running into heavies because they're quick enough to track me and have enough firepower to really hurt. also many lights perform poorly against other lights in my experience

Once upon a time PGI had the idea that you should be able to contribute to a fight no matter what weight class you were in.

Assaults would prey on heavies and be prey for lights.
Heavies would prey on mediums and be prey for assaults
Mediums would prey on lights and be prey for heavies
Lights would prey on assaults and be prey for mediums.

One prey, one predator for each class. Simple, efficient, balanced.

Against your prey you would have more than an even chance of winning.
Against your predator you would have less than an even chance of winning.
Against the other two, it would be an even chance.

It was something that a PvP game really needs: A reason to bring all classes. Without lights, assaults would rule. Without mediums, lights would rule.

So of course they fscked it up; mainly by giving heavies enough mobility to not be prey to the slow assaults - and enough torso twist/turning speed to prey on lights as well as mediums - meaning heavies suddenly were king of the food chain, with two prey and no predator.

Lights, on the other hand, suddenly had two predators. It is not aesthetic preference alone that have kept this weight class well under 20% for as long as we've been able to see the queue percent.

So for those assault drivers that think lights are hard to kill, this is why: You are not their predator. They are supposed to be your predator, to keep you from completely dominating everything and turning the game into a simple question of "who's got the most tonnage wins".

#29 Khobai

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:37 AM

light mechs tank better than assaults

its funny because its true

and it makes the dire wolf cry

Quote

Once upon a time PGI had the idea that you should be able to contribute to a fight no matter what weight class you were in.


That idea is stupid. period.

A light mech should never be as good as an assault at fighting. And the idea of a light mech countering an assault mech is absolutely ludicrous.

The purpose of light mechs is to scout, tag/narc, engage in sensor/information warfare, hit-and-run/harass, and capture objectives. The game has simply failed to expand the role of mechs to anything beyond combat.

Quote

It was something that a PvP game really needs: A reason to bring all classes. Without lights, assaults would rule. Without mediums, lights would rule.


PVP does need a reason to bring all classes. But assaults should absolutely dominate combat. Period. Because thats the only thing assaults can do. Theyre way too slow to do anything else.

The key to making all four weight classes important is for the game to develop other roles besides combat. Scouting/information/electronic warfare needs to be developed into a role. Command/support should also be developed into a role. That would give us the three distinct roles that PGI originally planned on having....

Edited by Khobai, 24 January 2016 - 12:50 AM.


#30 Leone

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:55 AM

So, there I was, I'd gotten a skilled Raven pilot to take me under their wing, I'd learned at the feet of a veteran light-ssassin, I'd been part of a light pack, and I was ready to take on an assault all on my own. I hopped inna my trusty FS9-A, and dropped inna solo queue.

I snuck around, unspotted, an found me a nice juicy King Crab. I came in fast, outta nowhere, and stripped that rear CT right proper. Next thing I know the pilot's already turning. Musta been paying attention. No problem, I was shown the way, 'I can do this' I figure. So I zip around to keep in their blindside, get another shot off. But wait, the blighter snaps back around the other way, painting my lasers across the side rear torso instead. And before I can stop myself, my poor FS9 pushes out into the line of fire.

*Boom, Boom* Two shots, and one arm down.

'Okay, okay' I says to myself, as I bring my little mech back behind the big guy. I paint the rear again, splashing across all three torsos, stripping what armour remains an doing some work on the inner CT. 'I got shot cuz I stopped' I figure, so this time as the big mech snaps around, I zoom on past.

*Boom, Peeeew, Boom* This time they aimed low, missed once, but still nearly stripped the armour offa leg.

Not lookin' so hot, but worst part? The Bloody Thing had jammed it's back up against a wall whilest I was circling it! So I run outta sight an think, 'Mayhaps I can pop outta cover an catch em unawares...' So I wait, I come outta one side and what do I see await'n? At's right, King Crab, ready for me, all *Boom, Boom, Peeew*

And so, one leg stripped, one arm gone an the opposing torso hammered near stripped, I learned an important lesson.

Not all assaults are easy pickings.

I left then. Don't rightly recall if I got another mech that match. Can't even remember the map. But I do remember that first snap, mech that was going forwards and turning one way suddenly hitting reverse and turning back the other, too fast for me to stop before I was in their sights. It was a movement of precision and beauty.

Also, that match made me start purchasing Seismic Sensors.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 24 January 2016 - 01:02 AM.


#31 stjobe

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:59 AM

View PostKhobai, on 24 January 2016 - 12:37 AM, said:

the idea of a light mech countering an assault mech is absolutely ludicrous.

Assaults have one weakness: They're slow and lumbering.
Lights have one strength: They're fast and agile.

Combine these two and you might understand exactly how a light could reasonably counter an assault.

View PostKhobai, on 24 January 2016 - 12:37 AM, said:

assaults should absolutely dominate combat.

To have one class "absolutely dominate combat" is the very definition of unbalanced, I hope you do understand that.

#32 YueFei

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 01:02 AM

View PostRandom Carnage, on 23 January 2016 - 11:24 PM, said:

Have you even played a PuG match?


That's a PEBKAC problem, not a game mechanics/balance issue. It's not the game's fault if the players don't work together.

#33 YueFei

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 01:09 AM

View Poststjobe, on 24 January 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

Assaults have one weakness: They're slow and lumbering.
Lights have one strength: They're fast and agile.

Combine these two and you might understand exactly how a light could reasonably counter an assault.

To have one class "absolutely dominate combat" is the very definition of unbalanced, I hope you do understand that.


He's got a point, though. You can't try to balance the game around the concept of having Light mechs counter Assault mechs. Because even if you tweaked the game so that a Light mech always defeats an Assault mech, that could work 1v1, but not 12v12.

It's like in World of Warcraft, Rogue vs Warrior. 1 Rogue could beat 1 Warrior, sometimes embarrassingly so. But if you made it like 5 Rogues vs 5 Warriors, the Warriors win almost every single time, because none of the 1v1 tricks work anymore. A Rogue can deadzone kite 1 Warrior, he can't deadzone kite all 5 of them.

You could make it so that a Light mech can always stay in the blindside of any Assault mech... and 1v1 that would work. But if it became 12v12, a Light mech would get on the blindside of 1 Assault mech only to be blown to bits by another one standing 150 meters away.

Basically if you want to make all the weight classes equally important (and that's what I would want), you will have to think of ways to make them all important in ways besides just head-to-head combat.

#34 WrathOfDeadguy

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 01:39 AM

View Postsensen, on 23 January 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

1. Light mechs are fast.


The Urbanmech, Adder, Kitfox, Mist Lynx, and Panther disagree with you- all are comparable in speed to mediums, or slower. For good reason, but we'll get to that.

View Postsensen, on 23 January 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

2. Light mechs are scouts.


Scout 'Mechs (Locust, Commando, Spider, Myst Lynx, Arctic Cheetah, some Firestarter variants, and only one Kitfox variant are light scout 'Mechs, per lore- even the RVN-3L, which is the dominant scout in MWO, was meant as an Electronics Warfare platform, not a scout) account for less than half of the light 'Mechs in MWO. The rest are designed to be snipers, assassins, close-range brawlers, fire support 'Mechs, flamer carriers, and EWAR platforms. For the most part, lights serve the same purpose as any other 'Mech class: to engage and destroy enemy 'Mechs. Their loadouts reflect this. Even those 'Mechs designed to be scouts sometimes acquired reputations as deadly opponents in their own right- the Arctic Cheetah is an obvious example, and the Commando was long considered the best scout in the Inner Sphere for its ability to carry a disproportionate amount of firepower for its size, acting as a mobile striker in addition to its primary role.

The notion that light 'Mechs are meant for scouting is erroneous; there are nearly as many medium scouts in BT lore as there are light scouts... and most of them aren't in MWO. Other 'Mechs, like the Jenner, were built from the ground up as 'Mech killers, and were so feared as such that other factions actually built other 'Mechs (the Wolfhound being one example) to hunt them down and kill them. Many were designed to carry heavy weapons- the Panther, Urbanmech, Adder, and Kitfox had variants carrying Gauss rifles, PPC/ERPPC, AC10/20, and LRM15/20, and were also designed to directly engage and kill enemy 'Mechs larger than themselves. The Hollander, which is not yet in MWO, is another famous example of a light 'Mech built around a heavy weapon (a shoulder-mounted Gauss rifle); the Toro, a design from the Taurian Concordat, mounted a PPC and two LRM5s.

All that offensive potential usually comes at a price, hence why the KFX, ADR, and UM all move like slugs compared to the rest of their class; the PNT is a bit faster, but still no speed demon. Like heavier 'Mechs, they trade a smaller engine for more firepower. Other lights geared towards offensive roles, like the Jenner and Wolfhound, rely on clusters of smaller weapons to make up the difference to maintain their speed, which usually results in a high per-alpha heat load, or shorter range, or both. There are always tradeoffs when you have limited tonnage to work with.

View Postsensen, on 23 January 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

3. Light mechs lack armor.


True! Which begs the question... why do you think they're OP? Peg a light with your full alpha in a heavy or assault, and they're down for the count. So... increase your situational awareness. Shoot them before they get behind you. Call your teammates for help if you can't hit them. Whatever you need to do.

However, don't cry that lights are OP. The fact that the light queue is consistently smaller than all three other weight classes despite lights being the cheapest to purchase and equip belies your argument; if they were really as crazy as you make them out to be, then the light queue would have long ago taken the heavy queue's place as the largest. The fact is that it is hard to do well in a 'Mech that can die from a single bad hit, that mounts a smaller alpha, and generally has to get closer to deliver it. Even the most powerful lights in the game (at the moment), the FS9 and ACH, are peanuts compared to a TBR's laservomit alpha that deals twice the damage at twice or three times the range.

If you are having trouble killing light 'mechs, consider this: when you hit them, did all of your damage strike the targeted component, or did some/most of it miss? If you rake a light's legs with a set of lasers, you will appear to be doing less damage than you think you should... but it's really just because the legs are moving quickly, and you can't adjust your aim fast enough to keep up with their motion. Even if the reticle turns red, that doesn't mean 100% of your damage found its mark. Hit detection on some weapons can be wonky as well- SRMs and PPCs seem expecially vulnerable to this... but that issue affects hits on larger 'Mechs as much as it does on lighter ones. If you're having that problem, switch weapons until PGI gets around to fixing things again.

But... goodness. Don't beat on the "lights are scouts" dead horse. All that does is show everyone just how little you actually understand the source material. Basically, read the lore before you pigeonhole a whole class of 'Mechs into a single role. That mistake leads you to underestimate 'Mechs that, in reality, are exactly as dangerous as they were always meant to be. Treat them as a credible threat, and you'll find that you don't get embarrassed by them quite so often.

*edit- roles should not be based on tonnage, but on the individual strengths of a chassis. They should receive bonuses, quirks, etc, based on what they were designed to do- not based on how big or small they are. LCTs, COMs, MLXs, etc, absolutely should be excellent scouts, and weaker in other areas, and KGCs, AS7s, DWFs, etc, should absolutely be fearsome battlewagons... but lighter 'Mechs focused around firepower, and heavier 'Mechs focused around support (the Cyclops, for instance, if PGI ever gets around to adding it), should not get crapped on because of that. Balance between the different weight classes is better in MWO than it has ever been in any Mechwarrior title... it can be made better and more nuanced, but not by steamrolling all of the depth of character out of the 'Mechs we have in the game already and implementing some kind of asinine "rock-paper-scissors" balance or top-down heirarchy in place of real role-based warfare.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 24 January 2016 - 01:54 AM.


#35 Lykaon

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 02:25 AM

View Postsensen, on 23 January 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

1. Light mechs are fast.
2. Light mechs are scouts.
3. Light mechs lack armor.

With that being said...WHY DON'T THEY DIE! Several laser hits/ missile hits and they don't f***ing die, most of the time they don't slow down (even after aiming at their legs). "1. Light mechs are fast" they are only fast because of their lack of tonnage/armor. "2. Light mechs are scouts" as such if a light mech went 1 on 1 with a assault or hell even a medium, then they should lose or run. "3. Light mechs lack armor" apparently that's not true because it takes several alpha strikes within spitting distance to kill the little buggers. Now..I know this is a game and they are "trying" to balance the game but when 3 suppose to be easy kills run circles around you while tickling your pickle with small pulse lasers, IT GETS F***ING ANNOYING! If anything you just made a CoD game with mechs, this isn't mechwarrior.



So ... "light mechs are scouts" is outright false. SOME light mechs are scouts. Actually MOST light mechs you see played are Harassers not scouts.

A scout mech may include some of the following. Modules that enhance sensor info gathering and sensor range.Seismic sensors and UAVs,Beagle (or clan) active probe TAG or NARC as well as possibly being an ECM chassis.

The recon mech pilot's primary concern is the location and identification of enemy mechs and their movements.Secondary roles include capturing points (Assault and Conquest) distraction and feigning (tapping the enemy base in Assault mode to pull fighters from the fight) Direct offensive engagments are down the list of priorities.

Scout mechs are usually the fastest and frequently jump capable to enhance mobility. Offense takes a back seat to data aquisition so module choices are generally geared towards sensor augmentation.

My Raven 3L is a "scout" mech with a specialty on spotting and counter ECM. 280XL engine 2 NARC launchers ECM and 3 medium lasers. Modules are sensor range and target info gathering, as well as a NARC enhancing module.

A sub set of recon mech is the spotter. these are recon platforms that include a targeting enhancment system like NARC or TAG.The Spotter's objective is to locate the enemy and aquire targeting data for other mechs (almost always the targeting mechs use LRMs)These pilots are the more aggressive recon pilots.The successful ones are very skilled at attack and evasion.

However most light mechs you see are Harassers.

A typical Harasser is built for speed and damage dealing. The main concern is to be mobile enough to hit and run your targets while dealing enough damage to justify the risk of engaging. Harasser light mechs generally target enemy within a certain criteria.Priorities vary but generally it's ... Isolated enemy assault mechs,ECM mechs,Enemy LRMs,Enemy lights.
The primary goal of a Harasser is to destroy enemy mechs. Recon is down the list for priorities a Harasser performs recon only incidently to it's seeking enemy targets to attack.


My Arctic Cheetah is a Harasser with 6x ER Small Lasers ECM and 4 DHS.


So essentially (and especially) in the solo PUG queue light mechs are combat role units first and maybe scouts as a side effect of being an offensive fighter.

#36 Tarogato

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 02:36 AM

View PostRandom Carnage, on 23 January 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

Only need to hit the light once huh? mmmkay.

I can dump anywhere between 80 and 120 damage in the first second depending on the build I take in my Dire.

Very rarely do I manage to cripple a light in that one second. Anyone that sees me in game will know that I do relatively well all in all. The issue is not my aim. It is getting that damage I'm putting out to actually register on the light I'm after. It simply doesn't happen, certainly not consistently.

In theory, I only need a quarter of that fire power to land on their leg to destroy it. Why then do most lights keep running at full speed after being "hit"?

No, it's not my aim.


I don't care how good you are. Unless you're running high PPFLD and capable of nailing them in one alpha, then YES, it is your aim. Of you are running lasers, SRMs, or dakka, then you are spreading damage. The best pilots in this game can't even perfectly track one component on a light (unless that light is moving in a straight line like a dimwit). Ever record footage of yourself playing? Ever do a frame-by-frame analysis of your aim, especially while trying to track light mechs? I guarantee you that you are spreading your damage and some of it is even missing entirely. I've seen countless videos of people who claimed "light's broken" only to do the frame-by-frame analysis and hey look... they're just spreading damage like a motherf----.

#37 Eider

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 02:37 AM

When they did some hitreg fixing it was interesting. Lights got dropped like nothing because people tend to play them not as scouts but as lagshielded assaults. This lasted for about a week and light ques dropped down below double digits. After about 2 weeks of nothing but tears i noticed 'hitreg' sucked again. I think its on purpose tho things like this are also what makes heavies generally better than assaults.

#38 Wolfways

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 02:50 AM

The internet. The faster something moves the worse hits register.

Also, pgi let players give light mechs ridiculous speeds via changing engines. Why bother learning to use a light when you can trust in speed tanking?

#39 adamts01

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 03:45 AM

View Postsensen, on 23 January 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

Now..I know this is a game and they are "trying" to balance the game but when 3 suppose to be easy kills run circles around you while tickling your pickle with small pulse lasers, IT GETS F***ING ANNOYING! If anything you just made a CoD game with mechs, this isn't mechwarrior.

So... 3 lights swarm an out of position assault, and you don't think the assault deserves what's coming? Stay with the team fatty.

#40 KHETTI

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 03:47 AM

@OP, if you are having problems with lights, then there's a rather simple solution for you...
Step 1 Buy a Stormcrow
Step 2 Load up said Stormcrow with Streaks(don't forget that BAP)
Step 3 Enjoy the salty tears of light pilots.

Some other tips, don't ignore lights flanking your rear, aim for their legs.





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