60 replies to this topic

[Silas7]

Khobai, on 04 February 2016 - 03:02 PM, said:

I understand that. But were comparing it to the Kodiak.

If both are equally undamaged, and both have equally devastating builds, and you can target a Direwolf that cant run away. Or a Kodiak thats running away that you have to overextend yourself to chase. Which are you gonna target?

The Direwolf makes itself a target by not being able to get away.

Its the old adage you dont have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun the other guy. Or in this case the bear just has to outrun the wolf?

Since I highly doubt the Dire Wolf is going to get buffs... The Kodiak is going to have to have some massive downside to balance things out.

Which one is shooting at me?

Which one is not looking at me?

Which one is closer to destroyed?

Which one was called out for targeting?

Very situational question and i don't think it's safe to assume anything at this point.

[Khobai]

the kodiak is not gonna stick around to die when it can avoid it. the dire wolf has no real choice but to stay and fight to the death.

speed is life in MWO. unless the kodiak has some super huge downside its going to completely render the dire wolf obsolete.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 04 February 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

the kodiak is not gonna stick around to die when it can avoid it. the dire wolf has no real choice but to stay and fight to the death.

speed is life in MWO. unless the kodiak has some super huge downside its going to completely render the dire wolf obsolete.

You mean just like the IIC mechs versus Omnimechs or IS mechs?

[Gas Guzzler]

Well, with the XL 400 and Endo, you are looking at around 42 tons of pod space i believe, so somewhere between a Dire and a Warhawk firepower wise, but the K-bear doesn't have quite as good of a hardpoint layout. I think the Dire is still going to be more devastating, but the Kodiak is obviously more maneuverable and will therefore be more useful in many situations.

[Khobai]

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You mean just like the IIC mechs versus Omnimechs or IS mechs?

yes. the kodiak needs a downside like the IIC mechs. or its simply going to put the direwolf out of business.

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Well, with the XL 400 and Endo, you are looking at around 42 tons of pod space i believe, so somewhere between a Dire and a Warhawk firepower wise, but the K-bear doesn't have quite as good of a hardpoint layout. I think the Dire is still going to be more devastating, but the Kodiak is obviously more maneuverable and will therefore be more useful in many situations.

400XL isnt really an ideal engine for the Kodiak. Engine weight increases exponentially. So your best bet is a 350-375 engine. The 400 is just too costly for the few extra kph it yields.

And the Kodiak-3 has a devastating hardpoint loadout so I dont really know what youre talking about. You can run the same quad UAC10 loadout that direwolves commonly use.

Edited by Khobai, 04 February 2016 - 03:26 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 04 February 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

yes. the kodiak needs a downside like the IIC mechs. or its simply going to put the direwolf out of business.

I think you missed his point. Everyone said "OMG the IIC mechs are going to completely obsolete EVERYTHING with their unlocked gear and clan tech" yet the IICs have largely been "meh". The IICs don't have a downside other than their hardpoint layouts.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 04 February 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

yes. the kodiak needs a downside like the IIC mechs. or its simply going to put the direwolf out of business.

My point is that people thought the IICs would put everything out of business...

[pwnface]

Khobai, on 04 February 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

You forgot endosteel. Direwolf cant have it. Kodiak can. Kodiak is effectively a 105T mech.

Kodiak can have ferrofibrous too although assault mechs generally need the crit slots so it might be tough to fit ferrofibrous all the time. But its certainly doable on some builds. Which is another 3-4 tons. Making it effectively a 108-109T mech.

Kodiak can sink all that extra tonnage into engine, go much faster, and still have firepower that easily rivals the DIre Wolf.

Ok so Endosteel can save you 5 tons. XL300 weighs 15.5 tons. XL400 weighs 33.5 tons.
33.5 - 15.5 - 5 = 13 tons. The DWF still has 13 more tons of weaponry to work with.

When you say a Kodiak "still has firepower that easily rivals the DIre Wolf" that's kind of a subjective assessment.
To me 13 tons is a little more than a marginal increase in firewpower, but again that's just my assessment.
Btw, C-Gauss, C-UAC-20, LBX20 are all 12 tons weapons.

Edit: oops I forgot about MASC. MASC weighs 4 tons. The DWF would have 17 tons of additional firepower. I guess that's enough tonnage for the ammo for your extra large ballistic weapon.

Edited by pwnface, 04 February 2016 - 03:30 PM.

[Khobai]

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I think you missed his point. Everyone said "OMG the IIC mechs are going to completely obsolete EVERYTHING with their unlocked gear and clan tech" yet the IICs have largely been "meh". The IICs don't have a downside other than their hardpoint layouts.

Im not missing the point at all. Im saying the Kodiak is going to have to have some major unforseen downside just like the IIC mechs. That basically WAS my whole point; that it needs some horrific downside PGI isnt telling us about or itll end up breaking the game.

Quote

Ok so Endosteel can save you 5 tons. XL300 weighs 15.5 tons. XL400 weighs 33.5 tons.
33.5 - 15.5 - 5 = 13 tons. The DWF still has 13 more tons of weaponry to work with.

When you say a Kodiak "still has firepower that easily rivals the DIre Wolf" that's kind of a subjective assessment.

To me 13 tons is a little more than a marginal increase in firewpower, but again that's just my assessment.
Btw, C-Gauss, C-UAC-20, LBX20 are all 12 tons weapons.

Again XL 400 is not an ideal engine for the Kodiak. Its a battlemech so it can adjust its engine rating unlike omnimechs. It can use a 350-375 engine which is much more efficient.

Dire Wolf XL300 weighs 15.5 tons (52.2 kph)
Kodiak XL370 weighs 25.5 tons (64.4 kph, 85-90kph in short bursts with masc variant)

So its exactly 10 tons heavier. Endo steel is -5 tons. Ferrofibrous is around -3.5 tons. So thats -8.5 tons if you take both. It pretty much makes up the entire 10 ton difference.

Even if you just take ES... sacrificing 5 tons of weapons to go like 12kph faster is well worth it. Because it increases your survivability immensely.

Edited by Khobai, 04 February 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[grendeldog]

There's nothing wrong with the Ebon Jag CT.

[Ordin Hall]

legionofvega, on 04 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

"How are they going to nerf it" thread is the new version of old "DOA" threads.

Wish we could get a "how are they going to nerf it" thread for the Rifleman, sadly it's going to be on the other end of the spectrum.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 04 February 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

400XL isnt really an ideal engine for the Kodiak. Engine weight increases exponentially. So your best bet is a 350-375 engine. The 400 is just too costly.

And the Kodiak-3 has a devastating hardpoint loadout so I dont really know what youre talking about. You can run the same quad UAC10 loadout that direwolves commonly use.

That is probably the best one. I dunno, making claims like this so early is kind of premature. Will have to wait until they are released.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

70 degree torso twist range

[Salticidae]

I play Direwolf a lot ( I have a gold one )

Firepower is great, where it's let down for me is it so easy to hit from its speed and size,

I hate watching light tanking 10 more damage then my 100 ton mech, it really need strucher quirks like the atlas has even they seem to take twice as much damage then a Direwolf

[pwnface]

Khobai, on 04 February 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

Again XL 400 is not an ideal engine for the Kodiak. Its a battlemech so it can adjust its engine rating unlike omnimechs. It can use a 350-375 engine which is much more efficient.

Dire Wolf XL300 weighs 15.5 tons (52.2 kph)
Kodiak XL370 weighs 25.5 tons (64.4 kph, 85-90kph in short bursts with masc variant)

So its exactly 10 tons heavier. Endo steel is -5 tons. Ferrofibrous is around -3.5 tons. So thats -8.5 tons if you take both. It pretty much makes up the entire 10 ton difference.

Even if you just take ES... sacrificing 5 tons of weapons to go like 12kph faster is well worth it. Because it increases your survivability immensely.

You forgot to account for the weight and slots of MASC. 4 tons and 4 slots.
Assuming you take endo-steel only you are sacrificing 9 tons of weapons and 11 slots.

Is it a worthwhile sacrifice? Maybe. Probably depends on the pilot and the role you are trying to fill.

I'm still going to focus the target that is the biggest threat on the battlefield and the DWF is still the most heavily armed.

If you can run a XL400 SB with 4ASRM6 + LBX20 with MASC.. I think that might be the build people favor.
Alternatively, 4xUAC10 is likely going to be a popular build too.

Edited by pwnface, 04 February 2016 - 03:53 PM.

[Khobai]

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You forgot to account for the weight and slots of MASC. 4 tons and 4 slots.

Thats only on the hero variant though. The Kodiak3 doesnt have MASC.

Yes the MASC variant is going to have less weapons than the Dire Wolf... in exchange for being able to go 85-90kph in short bursts.

It remains to be seen if MASC will be worth it or not. We dont know how exactly PGI plans to change it (just that it will give a bigger speed boost but last a shorter duration).

Quote

If you can run a XL400 SB with 4ASRM6 + LBX20 with MASC.. I think that might be the build people favor.Alternatively, 4xUAC10 is likely going to be a popular build too

Why would anyone favor that build? The LB20X is an atrociously bad weapon.

I could see x4 SRM6, x1 UAC20, and x2 CLPL Atlas copycat build. Thats well over 110 burst damage. While still going a very respectable speed.

Edited by Khobai, 04 February 2016 - 04:03 PM.

[pwnface]

Well when you specifically mention MASC in your comparison...

Khobai, on 04 February 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

Kodiak XL370 weighs 25.5 tons (64.4 kph, 85-90kph in short bursts with masc variant)

You kind of have to account for it in the rest of your comparison...

A 100t assault mech that can move 64kph is not as a scary as one that can sprint to your face at 90kph.

Edited by pwnface, 04 February 2016 - 03:59 PM.

[Dingo Battler]

Khobai, on 04 February 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

the kodiak is not gonna stick around to die when it can avoid it. the dire wolf has no real choice but to stay and fight to the death.

speed is life in MWO. unless the kodiak has some super huge downside its going to completely render the dire wolf obsolete.

This. As a Dire pilot, more or less, in a brawl, you have to land your first 1-2 salvos, or you will die. There is no running in a dire, your turning sucks, your speed is even worse. If someone catches you alone, you have to turn around and fight them to the death.

Even for pokes, there is no such things as trading. If 3 different mechs are poking you, you need to stand out there and shoot all 3. Half measures don't work either, you have to expose the whole mech to poke, thanks to its knuckle draggers.

Only downside of the KDK is that its hardpoints are mostly energy, which means it'll overheat quickly, so it actually needs that speed to run away to cool down, whereas the dire can gauss/ac5/10-spam to death. The KDK3 can totally replace the gauss DWF, slap on 2 gauss, 2 LPLs. It'll be a poke monster, able to poke and run away.

To be fair, the KDK doesn't need a nerf, the DWF needs a buff. I pilot my KGC more than my DWF, thanks to faster speed, faster reflexes, much greater torso twist, high mounts. A KDK with nerfs would be unplayable.

Edited by KBurn85, 04 February 2016 - 04:12 PM.

[Hit Mech]

Grimm Peaper, on 04 February 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

So how are they going to cripple it this time?

Every time a new potential "super op mech" gets announced, what keeps me from buying it is the question of how are they going to cripple it to make it "balanced". Take a look at the direwolf and it's pathetic torso twist range, the Ebon Jaguar with it's overly large ct, add ghost heat to lrm5 post launch to cripple the mad dog, can only charge 2 gauss at a time specifically to nerf direwolf before it even launches.

People keep justifying the pathetic torso twist of the direwolf because "you gotta have some drawback for all that firepower", so you know it's coming for the Kodiak. So what's it gonna be this time pgi? Poor hitboxes, a tiny torso twist like the dire? Locked crit slots? Please let me know before buy your crippled shiny new mech.

I can already see the qq when the kodiak arrives and has the torso twist of the dire, poor hitboxes, can barely lift itself off the ground with it's jump jets, and no structure quirks so that people will say "man I like the firepower, but it's just too squishy to brawl with it" ala Highlander IIC, Orion IIC, Hunchback IIC.

This is why PGI will never see another dime of my money. Better to just wait for the 'nerfed into the dirt' version and buy it with c-bills if it's still worth it.

I wonder how much money PGI needs to loose before they learn 'bait and switch' is not a good business model?

Edited by Hit Mech, 04 February 2016 - 04:26 PM.

[ICANHASCHZBURGER]

Roadkill, on 04 February 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Honestly, as great as the Kodiak looks on paper, it's not going to need crippling. The thing is HUGE. You think the Dire Wolf attracts attention? It's going to look like a stealth Mech compared to the Kodiak.

I don't forsee the need for crippling in any way. It's height and overall profile are all the crippling it's going to need to keep it in line.

Is there a good size comparison chart somewhere? I'd like to check out the relative size.