95 replies to this topic

[thehiddenedge]

Honestly if they just traveled a bit faster they would be far better. I love PPC's, I really do, but even using them on superquirked mechs like the warhammer, speed is still my main issue with them. I mean heatwise they do run hot, but that's not as bad as the speed for basically a 7 ton AC10 with no ammo. I don't know how many times the target I shoot at is able to scoot back behind cover before my ppc's reach them. Fix that and the ginormous projectile hitbox and I'm good.

Oh and add the HUD effects for getting hit.

[oldradagast]

Major problems are:

- Velocity is too slow. Notice that only mechs with high velocity quirks run PPC's, which shows the problem. Also, I'm not a fan of large velocity quirks in general since it just feels strange that certain mechs somehow shoot things faster (bullets, maybe, but PPC's are pushing it) and can mess up your aim a bit when switching between mechs with noticeably different velocity quirks on a given weapon. So, they should buff the speed by about 15% and trim the same amount off velocity quirks and it would be better.

- Minimum range on the PPC needs to go. It does NOT match Lore, since it was not range under which zero damage was dealt, and it it is inconsistent since many weapons in the game have minimum ranges in Tabletop under which there are to-hit penalties (probably to encourage melee.) So, it is out of place here. It also just looks nutty and feels wrong that somehow my big plasma orb magically does nothing under 90m. The PPC minimum range is one of the big reasons they are not used when a laser or large pulse laser can be comparably effective AND not have a huge weakness.

- Fix hit-reg: I don't know what it is about PPC's, but they are so inconsistent. They explode when they get near ground and yet pass between arm and torso of every mech possible. There's just something flaky about how they behave.

Edited by oldradagast, 02 March 2016 - 04:28 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

oldradagast, on 02 March 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Major problems are:

- Velocity is too slow. Notice that only mechs with high velocity quirks run PPC's, which shows the problem. Also, I'm not a fan of large velocity quirks in general since it just feels strange that certain mechs somehow shoot things faster (bullets, maybe, but PPC's are pushing it) and can mess up your aim a bit when switching between mechs with noticeably different velocity quirks on a given weapon. So, they should buff the speed by about 15% and trim the same amount off velocity quirks and it would be better.

- Minimum range on the PPC needs to go. It does NOT match Lore, since it was not range under which zero damage was dealt, and it it is inconsistent since many weapons in the game have minimum ranges in Tabletop under which there are to-hit penalties (probably to encourage melee.) So, it is out of place here. It also just looks nutty and feels wrong that somehow my big plasma orb magically does nothing under 90m. The PPC minimum range is one of the big reasons they are not used when a laser or large pulse laser can be comparably effective AND not have a huge weakness.

- Fix hit-reg: I don't know what it is about PPC's, but they are so inconsistent. They explode when they get near ground and yet pass between arm and torso of every mech possible. There's just something flaky about how they behave.

Thats because if you could, you would see a solid box around the world objects, but you would see that mechs each have their own little box around each part. What needs to be fixed is the big magical box around all the objects needs to be properly modeled around the objects. Idk how to explain it, but go into river city and fire between some of the non-rectangular buildings, you will see how you hit air like 3 feet away from the building....its that invisible box around the building that needs fixing.

[Moomtazz]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 26 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

The biggest problem with the PPC is the LPL, for both clan and IS.

All the other problems the PPC has are irrelevant as long as the LPL is that significantly better than the PPC.

I don't think anyone would use PPCs even if LPLs weren't in the game.

[Nebuchadnezzar2]

Either:
- reduce the heat and make them brawling weapon
- increase the speed and make them poptart/sniping weapon

[MechWarrior5152251]

Resetting target locks would be a cool effect that would get some people to actually take the inferior PPC/ERPPC as a weapon.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechWarrior5152251, on 02 March 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

Resetting target locks would be a cool effect that would get some people to actually take the inferior PPC/ERPPC as a weapon.

No, no it wouldn't.

[oldradagast]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 March 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

Thats because if you could, you would see a solid box around the world objects, but you would see that mechs each have their own little box around each part. What needs to be fixed is the big magical box around all the objects needs to be properly modeled around the objects. Idk how to explain it, but go into river city and fire between some of the non-rectangular buildings, you will see how you hit air like 3 feet away from the building....its that invisible box around the building that needs fixing.

I understand the concept of simplified hitboxes vs. the more complex geometric shape, but still... there's just something flaky about PPC's and the way they interact with the environment. Maybe it's just perception, or maybe everyone thinks there's a problem because they read it on the internet, but it is worth investigating, even if it turns out to be nothing. Heaven knows there's been no shortage of other surprises that have turned up in the code before.

[LordKnightFandragon]

oldradagast, on 02 March 2016 - 06:03 PM, said:

I understand the concept of simplified hitboxes vs. the more complex geometric shape, but still... there's just something flaky about PPC's and the way they interact with the environment. Maybe it's just perception, or maybe everyone thinks there's a problem because they read it on the internet, but it is worth investigating, even if it turns out to be nothing. Heaven knows there's been no shortage of other surprises that have turned up in the code before.

Its definitely something with the projectile and environment hit boxes. Lasers dont suffer from it, lasers are a hitscan object, so there is no projectile to collide with anything. Its not unlike when you play Warframe and use a Bow, Supra LMG or some projectile weapon vs a hitscan weapon. When you use a hitscan, you can literally hide entirely behind a box and still shoot, if your reticule clears the object, while wiht a projectile weapon, you shoot the obstruction in front of your weapon, since there is a projectile to account for....

I would almost bet it is the same deal here....if they fixed up the collision hit boxes and stuff around everything the issue would be solved. The same issue is in Planetside 2 as well, you cant shoot through fences that ring around the tops of buildings, same deal there.

[Homeskilit]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 March 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

Its definitely something with the projectile and environment hit boxes.

The large projectile does not help either.

[SQW]

I miss the how PPCs cause HUD flicker in MW4.

At least cause some screen shake a la LRMs and ACs.

[mad kat]

Even mechs that are quirked to run them still struggle to be effective. Does say something about them that even post quirks they still gather dust.

[Lugh]

Almond Brown, on 24 February 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

Or perhaps just make the GH threshold 3 instead of the current 2 and adjust the heat "increase" level accordingly

Since all PPC's are "Linked", no worries about other weapons being affected.

They'd be fine provided:

Velocity baseline = MAX RANGE.

This way they can hit in one second what the laser derp crowd hits instantly, within their burn time.

How do I know this? MAD and WHM variants with 40% PPC velocity take the 1200 and make it 1680 and they feel pretty darned ok. Still not as ZOMG stupid easy as lasers but adequate to compete.

While we are wishing for things that probably won't happen, the target unlock I see previously mentioned is a great IDEA.

And a minimap blanking would also be a good thing.

Edited by Lugh, 03 March 2016 - 05:23 AM.

[Lugh]

TexAce, on 24 February 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

No, pinpoint damage is high enough, we dont need 30point alphas by 3 PPCs (+ Gauss + lasers and whatnot) to be fired into one pixel without any punishment.

I'm absolutely against upping the GH threshold.

And I dont mind PPC velocity either. Leading targets is OP for too many ppl it seems.

Everyone wants to dumb this game even more down it seems.

The laser underhive has spoken! Do not threaten the preeminence of my precious instant on, I can hit anything if I flail about enough!

PRECIOUS!

Leading targets is fine. Having to lead targets and still missing them because they can just stop in place when you are leading them enough to have the dodgeball pass in front of them is yet another indicator that their velocity is TOO DAMN SLOW.

[Quaamik]

Zookeeper Dan, on 24 February 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

First you have to decide what role you want PPC's to play. I think they should be the go-to sniper weapon. Have them deal full damage up their max range.
....

I agree that you need to figure out what role they should have first, but not that they should be go to sniper weapons. We have Gauss for that.

The standard IS PPC would make a dandy medium to close combat weapon. Except that it does no damage under 90 m (so no one getting close wants it), has less damage for heat than any of the large class lasers, and is harder to hit with than the lasers, and uses the same hard point a laser would use.
---- Fix it by dropping heat by 1 & making it do full damage from 0 out. 10 damage / 9 heat. A minor velocity buff (say to 1200 mps) would be useful and not OP.

The IS ER-PPC makes good long range weapon. NOT a sniper weapon (we have gauss that fills that role, and ERLLs on the energy side). The problem is it has the worst damage for heat of any weapon in the game, and is harder to hit with than the lasers, and uses the same hard point a laser would use.
---- Fix it by making it heat neutral. Same damage as heat. I'm thinking 14-14, with the damage being awarded partially as splash damage like the C-ERPPC (10+2+2 damage). Velocity should go to 1600 mps (twice its full power range, so it takes a half second for a shot to reach that far).


The Clans lack pinpoint brawling weapons, and lack a standard PPC, so I see the c-ERPPC as a combo weapon (short / medium / long range). NOT a sniper weapon (we have gauss that fills that role, and ERLLs on the energy side). The problem is its heat, recharge time in brawling, and is harder to hit with than the lasers, and uses the same hard point a laser would use. The c-LPL completely outclasses it until you reach a range that the c-ERPPC can't manage to score hits at anyway.
---- Fix it by giving it more damage than heat. Say 16 damage for 15 heat, with the damage being awarded partially as splash damage like current (10+3+3 damage). Velocity should go to 1350 mps and its recharge time drop by 0.5 seconds. The slower velocity reflects that its built to cover mid range as well as long range, and the shorter recharge time is not OP as the high heat is going to limit its sustained fire rate.

Edited by Quaamik, 05 March 2016 - 02:03 PM.

[SQW]

Remember how slow that ball of lightning was in MW2? It was a frigging beach ball!

I only run dual PPCs on WHM-6R (50% speed quirk) and man is it a killer. The trick is to use more than 1 PPC because landing or missing 20pt dmg at one spot is much MUCH better than landing or missing two 10 pt dmg shots.

I admit any mech without PPC speed quirk is sub-optimal but if PPC is buffed to become are a general weapon, the meta will definitely shift for the worse. I read the March update will buff the PPCs a little. I sincerely hope PGI doesn't go overboard with the buff.