248 replies to this topic

[UberStuka]

Go into a 1v1 match with a friend, have friend bring an Atlas. Now blow off both arms, side torsos, one leg and strip all the armor down, and structure to red before you take the kill shot. At the end of match screen results you will be well over 1000 dmg on one mech. Now 1000 spread dmg isn't even that impressive considering you might have to put 1000 points of dmg on one mech alone to kill it and the time to kill is sad.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Just think if there was 4 fresh 100 ton assaults on the red team vs just you in your lrm boat with 15 min on the clock and you could somehow kite them with LRMs the time on the clock would expire before you could kill them or you would likely be out of ammo.

Edited by UberStuka, 02 March 2016 - 04:42 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

You promised us math. So, where is it? ... FYI, 1 ton of IS-SRMs is 215 damage vs 1 ton of LRMs being 180 damage. Oh, and unlike your precious LRMs people who use SRMs don't send half of them into terrain and buildings, and don't need that certain somebody to hold locks for them and protect them from anything and everything that comes within 200m. Not even gonna start to rant about how any decent laservomit build can deal 50+ damage to your LRM yacht and retereat safely even before you'll be able to lock him. But please, continue to educate us how not useless LRMs are using your wicked math skillz.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

any "decent laservomit" is a broken mechanic relying on pinpoint 0-spread targeting and unintended alphas

crymoar pl0x tryhards

[Curccu]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

1) no
2) obviously not yours - since you lack the basic capacity to understand mixed unit tactics
3) yes, ofcourse i meant to do that, because thats exactly what "functionally different" means

...moron

You tier 5 scrubs could actually try to play in some competitive league and see how awesome your mixed unit tactics with almighty LRM support are.

[Wolfways]

Just had a few matches in a MDD LRM boat to remind myself what it's like.
First three matches I did around 300 damage and felt useless.
Fourth match was on Alpine and I did 1370 damage, and the match came down to me, heavily damaged and out of ammo with only 4xcERML's left, vs. a slightly damaged Kit Fox. We lost and I felt even more useless

Oh, in case you're wondering....my heat killed me

Edited by Wolfways, 02 March 2016 - 04:42 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Ugg. Sorry, but the way you (the OP) play LRMs makes me sick to the stomach. Ever time an assault mech starts a match with "press R for locks, I have LRMs", a small kitten dies.

LRMs are great and devastating weapons in the right hands and playstyle, no matter which map (yes, even Frozen City or River City). What is needed though for LRMs to be effective is something no Assault mech is able to fulfill. Speed and maneuverability.

You say that you expect 66% of your LRMs to miss even though you are shooting to kill. That is terrible, even for LRMs. My stats say I have a hit rate of 52% on the LRMs I usually use (CLRM5). Im sure my hit rate would be much higher if I wouldnt intentionally shoot single LRM5 volleys at snipers just to force them to take cover (thus intentionally missing every now and then) or dumbfiring at medium ranges if no locks are possible while maneuvering myself into a better position.

Heck, I dont even feel the need to equip TAG on my MDD as Im usually close enough behind my teammates to get my own locks. If I cant get a lock due to ECM, Ive got CAP and a UAV or just dumbfire them because the time it takes for the LRMs to fly 200-300 meters can be predicted in a fashion so that quite a few of them actually do hit the intended target.

I dont expect my LRMs to hit required components like when I would with a direct fire weapon, but I do expect to help my teammates to benefit from the psychological impacts Im causing due to the "incoming missiles" message and the constant screenshaking.

Relying on teammates to lock targets for you (especially at over 1000 meters) is terrible and you should feel terrible about yourself for doing that. You also wrote that you know what teamwork is and you expect others to hold locks for you.... That is not teamwork, that is leaching off your team. Teamwork would be if you were up front helping your team by being yet another target for the enemy to spread incoming damage around and also actively searching for priority targets to shut down yourself. Learn to use LRMS properly and then come back here and then try to teach players what a good LRM boater should be doing, what you wrote in the OP is not correct.

[PhoenixFire55]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 04:26 AM, said:

any "decent laservomit" is a broken mechanic relying on pinpoint 0-spread targeting and unintended alphas

Yes it is. But that is another discussion alltogether.

[Kyynele]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 04:26 AM, said:

any "decent laservomit" is a broken mechanic relying on pinpoint 0-spread targeting and unintended alphas

crymoar pl0x tryhards

So, you use LRMs and these "mixed unit tactics" more because of role-playing reasons instead of their actual efficiency in the game as it is? I'm fine with that.

The only reason to cry here is if people who actually try to get good in the game get strayed into weapons systems that inflate their damage numbers while not helping them to win way more matches than they lose.

[Bud Crue]

OP,

Just stop. This is pointless. Here is the deal:

This is another one of those issues that you and folks like you see as reasonable an obvious and others, especially folks playing at higher tiers will adamantly disagree with (and some lovely folks will mock you for). There is no middle ground here. I don't know what tier you play at but I suspect you are in the underhive with me (t5-t4). Down here LRMs often work great and at the higher tiers they are essentially useless. Here's why, and it has little to do with math.

At lower tiers people are convinced they can be better if they have better builds. Many low tier players however, lack the skills to be particularly good with any build (which is why some who have accepted our limitations play builds that we enjoy and may be a bit goofy, but I digress). Nevertheless, that belief that the problem is the mech not the pilot, leads many to look for an edge in their builds. "Oh look" they say, "Lrms do a lot of damage and I can hide (as long as someone spots for me) and do that damage from long range (as long as may target isn't able to move to cover or just move rapidly). Great!" Now, other low tier players go to metamechs and other sources looking for their edge. They note from these sources, that the builds mostly emphasize massive, direct fire, Alphas, with no extraneous crap like AMS or active probes in use. So they mimic these builds for their hoped for edge. And now you have a perfect storm for Lrms to be perceived as a great weapon. Because more often than not there a lot of people playing who lack the skills to avoid lrms, lack the equipment to mitigate lrms, and lots of folks on both teams using lrms, along with other builds that encourage unskilled player to face tank (so at least some folks are sitting out in the open) Ergo: "LRMS ROCK!"

At the higher tiers none of those factors are present or only rarely so. At the higher levels their are more folks running snipers and high alpha brawlers and folks who know how to use them. Here your spotters are killed as soon as they poke their little heads out, denying your lrm boats their targets. Then those nasty high alpha mechs, with pilots who know how to use them (and whom often work as a pack) come for you. Here you are not doing your asserted 800 plus damage. You simply won't get the chance.

I know this will get lost in the torrent of derision and occasional bits of support you are receiving via this thread, but the reality is enjoy the Lrms while you can. If you "git gud" as some of the lovely folks around assert, Lrms will become decreasingly effective as you advance.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Curccu, on 02 March 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

You tier 5 scrubs could actually try to play in some competitive league and see how awesome your mixed unit tactics with almighty LRM support are.

tier 3, because i only started playing again 3-4 weeks ago and i started screwing around with lights (which im legendarily bad at) to avoid tier 2

and i dont give a flaming F about your competitive league, its full of toxic tryhards that only feel comfortable enough to pull that stick out of their behind around their own kind

you exist in a niche - a little area that is a direct result of PGI's incompetence to create a game that feels and behaves like a MechWarrior game, sucking the life and fun out of anyone that even dares to attempt to have fun, because you dont like it

now im going to be the better person here and tell you this: as long as its not on my "expense" - have fun with it

[Ghogiel]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

tier 3, because i only started playing again 3-4 weeks ago and i started screwing around with lights (which im legendarily bad at) to avoid tier 2

and i dont give a flaming F about your competitive league, its full of toxic tryhards that only feel comfortable enough to pull that stick out of their behind around their own kind

you exist in a niche - a little area that is a direct result of PGI's incompetence to create a game that feels and behaves like a MechWarrior game, sucking the life and fun out of anyone that even dares to attempt to have fun, because you dont like it

now im going to be the better person here and tell you this: as long as its not on my "expense" - have fun with it

It's not like people haven't tried to make just about everything work, it's just somethings have shown themselves to be more effective. That didn't come about by forum warrioring and asserting anything. That's come about because the better players in the game are in lobbies practicing and experimenting.

with 3 weeks in the game I don't even know how much unit practice you have actually done, sounds like forum warrioring.

[Lugh]

chewie, on 02 March 2016 - 12:44 AM, said:

Not at all.

Lrms are a support weapon.
Support.

Eg you rain on people which distracts them, forces them to find cover, allows your team to use their pinpoint derp damaging builds to shoot them without them shooting back.

Because their too busy trying to avoid the lrms that they think are op.

They're not. They're supporting your team by making the enemy keep their heads down.

And when your team is incapable of taking advantage of the rain, you lose 12-0 because you don't have enough fire power to take out the direct fire assaults quickly.

(Had 4 LRM mechs in a match last night [I was guilty of doing it that match]) The above was the result.

Granted I was having a night where I could do nothing right (or so it seemed). So I logged off. IN Disgust.

At TWO THINGS.

1) PPCs still suck. On any mech that doesn't have the 40% velocity buff that certain IS mechs have for them, they are dishearteningly slow. To be competitive with Lasers which are instant on damage to max range, they need to have velocity increased from the paltry 1200 it is now to a baseline of velocity = max range. That way their impact is felt in 1 second and you can't dodge them like you are playing dodgeball.

2) LRMs are still bad. Not as bad as they were pre-ecm nerfage, but still on the whole very feast or famine, with a lean towards famine. Even played correctly (within 300m of the rest of the team lobbing over top while bringing other weapons to bear) they make me grind my teeth in frustration.

[Kyynele]

Rushin Roulette: This. The best way to play LRMs is to be mobile. You want to be able to relocate fast so you can rain LRMs on people even when they find some cover, and stay with your team so you share your armor with them, don't get left behind, and when enemies do show up for your team to shoot, you always fully benefit from your TAG/Artemis. The all-around best LRM mechs are typically heavier mediums and lighter heavies.

Bud Crue: Good post. I'd like to add that the top tier players have all started from the bottom, so they know what the bottom tier gameplay is like. The lower tier guys however, only see higher tier gameplay in CW by chance, and typically don't even seem to be capable of understanding what happened there. That's the reason these threads go the way they go. The OP truly believes he's telling the facts, and the "tryhards" get frustrated trying to explain the OP's making his assumptions based solely on the samples from the shallow end of the pool. Throw in some delusions of grandeur about getting nice damages well when being carried by top teams, and human nature to deny the possibility that others might be better in the game, and it's really hard to get anywhere.

Anyway, what to take from this thread:
If you're low tier and want instant gratification, go spam LRMs.
If you're low tier, want to get good and want to win the games you play, the fastest way is to learn to use direct fire weapons, because those are the ones you will be using in the top anyway.
If you don't need to win to have fun, do whatever you please.
If you're high tier, there's nothing new here.

[Lugh]

Bud Crue, on 02 March 2016 - 04:46 AM, said:

OP,

Just stop. This is pointless. Here is the deal:

I know this will get lost in the torrent of derision and occasional bits of support you are receiving via this thread, but the reality is enjoy the Lrms while you can. If you "git gud" as some of the lovely folks around assert, Lrms will become decreasingly effective as you advance.

It should also be noted that if the assertion is correct that you cannot do 800 damage games without LRMs, then you will 'accidently' end up in a higher tier where those weapons are close to zero effectiveness.

If you thought you were no good with other weapons before, wait until you try those other weapons in Tier 3 and Tier 2 where you will be facing the match starved Tier 1 pilots that do know what they are doing OFTEN. You will be the guy that 'balances their 1 with your 3 so you average a 2'. And they will eat you alive.

[Idealsuspect]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

Let me begin by saying if you don't like playing LRM mechs, great. Don't play them. Play what you enjoy. But if you think they're useless or bad...well...you're wrong. And this is why...

1 ton of LRM ammo is 180 damage. It's rock solid in terms of damage per ton.

My Stalker 5M carries 14 tons of LRM ammo (lulz) along with 3 medium pulse lasers to chase off annoying lights.

So we're at 14 x 180 = 2520 potential damage.

Of course you're never going to get that. On average, I expect 2/3rds of my LRM's to do 0 damage (which is why I carry so much ammo on my LRM mechs). That leaves 1/3 of LRM's to actually hit their target. Now, on maps like Polar Highlands, Alpine Peaks, or Boreal Vault in CW that umber goes up...sometimes significantly. And it's really only Crimson or Grim(CW) that it goes down.

2520/3 = 840 damage.

Now ask yourself how often you do 840 damage in a match?

And how many kills with your 840 lrms damage? aka 2520 potential damage
2520 potential damage? It mean 10 whole minutes spamming tonns of lrms becose your teamates, who are dying one by one while you hide, gave you some spots during the whole game ...

With pinpoint weapons you need 150-200 damage for kill any assaut,light or 2x "xl engine IS medium" mech and even with spread close range like srms you need only 200 for kill anything and only 100 damage if you use brain ( shoot lights or others jumpings mechs only in leggs for example )

Oh but you need something more ... >>> you need to go in front with yours balls and you need some skills ( and maybe luck of course ) With lrms you don't, that's why you have not lots of kills becose this weapon isnt really effective.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 02 March 2016 - 05:52 AM.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Ghogiel, on 02 March 2016 - 05:19 AM, said:

It's not like people haven't tried to make just about everything work, it's just somethings have shown themselves to be more effective. That didn't come about by forum warrioring and asserting anything. That's come about because the better players in the game are in lobbies practicing and experimenting.

with 3 weeks in the game I don't even know how much unit practice you have actually done, sounds like forum warrioring.

started playing "again" - im a veteran that keeps coming back like the flu
as for the amount of unit practice - i nearly only play with a unit (which means i get dragged to face tier 1/2 on a regular basis)

and yes, we have decent success with LRM unless we screw around for kicks (which, admittedly, we do a lot) - credit goes in large part to the excellent Light pilots - and as Lugh mentioned, its not enough to use LRM effectively, its also taking advantage of the effect
using it correctly is teamwork intensive and its all about information that the commander has

[CreativeAnarchy]

I still don't like LRMs.

IS has a minimum range. If you can't maintain that minimum range, you've lost some of your damage effectiveness. Clan doesn't have this problem. I haven't unlocked any clan modules and I'm not swapping to clan just to use LRMs. Both have a sweet spot to use them and out of that spot, it is harder to hit your target and easier for them to get out of the way.

You need to get that lock. Loose that lock and you will loose your shot. I use radar deprivation module and once I get behind cover, the LRMs continue to where I was standing missing me. You can rely on your team but they can loose their lock. I do get hit with them, I'll admit that, but it isn't too terribly difficult to avoid them. If I'm in the sweet spot, it can be more difficult, but then I'm probably closing in on an IS LRM boat with all my weapons available where the LRM boat lost some of it's effectiveness once I've gotten within that minimum range.

While I'm not too impressed with AMS, it does reduce LRM effectiveness, and I do load AMS and I carry 2 tonnes of AMS ammo. Have a few players with AMS offers a fairly decent defense against LRMs without having to get to cover right away.

They spread. I don't like that. I'd much rather be accurate and hit what I'm wanting to hit on that mech.

I don't care for their sound when firing. They sound rockety enough, but I find ballistics are more satisfying to hear when firing.

You have to slot ammo. I'd rather slot ballistics.

LRMs have to be hands down better for me to use them and they are not. If I'm going to have to get some kind of visual, I may as well stick with ballistics or lasers. Besides, it is more fun to be able to hit my target in motion, while I'm in motion, at my ballistics optimal effective range using a bit of skill, unlike LRMs which takes the computer to lock.

Edited by CreativeAnarchy, 02 March 2016 - 05:35 AM.

[Deathlike]

If you spent a moment in actual comp play (at the highest of tiers - we're talking about leagues and certainly not CW/quickplay), you'll quickly find out you're wrong. Assuming that LRMs were good, you'd at least see them there right?

My math says that if you're going to sit back and hope that the opfor won't crush you, you are a lovely target to farm. It doesn't matter if you use LRMs (it accelerates the process of dying quicker because you likely have little other firepower to fight back with) or you "snipe" from the back (sniping is useful, assuming you are actually moving with the team, and not just camping in the back).

So, I will disagree with that assessment.

Simply put, at higher levels of play, people that have a clue about avoiding LRMs will more often than not do more "effective damage" (not spraying and praying) than someone strictly running LRMs... even when you involve LRM support weapons (like NARC, UAV, and TAG).

[Ghogiel]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

started playing "again" - im a veteran that keeps coming back like the flu
as for the amount of unit practice - i nearly only play with a unit (which means i get dragged to face tier 1/2 on a regular basis)

and yes, we have decent success with LRM unless we screw around for kicks (which, admittedly, we do a lot) - credit goes in large part to the excellent Light pilots - and as Lugh mentioned, its not enough to use LRM effectively, its also taking advantage of the effect
using it correctly is teamwork intensive and its all about information that the commander has

Oh I didn't know you played comp. What unit you in?

[Thunderbird Anthares]

i dont play "comp"
i play with a unit, we run into and play with other units, it happens in CW and group queue

i dont care for competitive play that is built on mechanics that i consider utterly broken and attracting the kind of people i want to have nothing in common with... im a MechWarrior(/BattleTech) fan, not a CounterStrikeWithRobots fan

really the only reason why i still care about MWO is because eyecandy and large amounts of people to play and have fun with, and i found a group of people that wants to have fun instead of trampling over the lore with a steel foot...

but since i came back and seen how little the game progressed (despite indeed improving, slightly), it just made me pick up MechWarrior: Living Legends again and start playing that for the sake of tactical gameplay depth... and im having TONS of fun there
i always loved MW, but MWO never 100% agreed with me - its just here to toy around with