482 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 May 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

Yeah, it would literally be entirely skillbased. Not unlike Planetside 2 or other shooters. The better player seems almost invincible. I could pretty much solo defend bases against an entire squad or more of lesser players. Meanwhile, I got had when I met abetter player.

Less thinking? Yeah, if we keep everything the same as now. If we introduced COF, Aim times, various different systems to increase TTk and reduce the alphas, making us manage multiple systems at once, it would increase skill.

And increasing skill means, higher skilled palyers get even more advantage. the current standard MWO user can't even figure out to build a proper mech, adding more "Skill" just increases the Abyss.

[Lugh]

Lily from animove, on 04 May 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

And increasing skill means, higher skilled palyers get even more advantage. the current standard MWO user can't even figure out to build a proper mech, adding more "Skill" just increases the Abyss.

In a game with as limited a scope as this one, having EVE online levels of abyss are what would keep it more interesting for longer.

Sadly we don't have interesting skill trees the way that EVE does.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lily from animove, on 04 May 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

And increasing skill means, higher skilled palyers get even more advantage. the current standard MWO user can't even figure out to build a proper mech, adding more "Skill" just increases the Abyss.

Which is fine. More skill requirements to play isnt a bad thing.

[LordKnightFandragon]

MischiefSC, on 03 May 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

Difference is most people don't twist on reflex and often stop to backup instead of ankle bite and run past.

Ive practiced it in the training grounds and I find even if I twist as soon as im hit, the damage is already done. its 80% dmg where the AI aimed, 10% to my ST, 10% to my arm. Ofc, in a Warhawk, its 80% dmg to the point of aim, 18% dmg to ST, 2% dmg to arm.

THen it gets to a point where you pretty much get stun locked, spending more time trying to back away and twist away the damage and cant even get a shot in. So, its pretty much gets to a point where you say, **** it and fire back, taking damage....

Alternately, I found I use cheap cheesy WoT tactics of trying to poke around 1 pixel at a time, sorta glitching the system to where the AI cant shoot me, but I can shoot back with 1 arm. Its such a bad feeling. In this huge battlemech, fiddling around trying to inch my way out....rather then walk around the corner and brawl it up.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 04 May 2016 - 06:51 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Well your way is of course an option to play "run the gauntlett"
But its more a kind of fast aquiring targets - your shots should be on their way as soon as you see them or as alternative blend the first volley - stun it with the second.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 04 May 2016 - 07:04 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

My response may come across as 'salty', trust me it's not 'salt', it's a blunt reaction to what I see are some short comings in your arguments.

Gas Guzzler, on 01 May 2016 - 11:05 PM, said:

...

The other thing you have to realize is, the reason people alpha strike is for their own survival.

...

Bullsh*t. Alpha strike is the PRIMARY firing mode for damn near every f'ing 'mech in the game. All anyone does is fire every f'ing weapon they have all, ALL the goddamned time.

Current system allows most 'mechs to have huge alphas firing two, three, or even more times in a row without having to worry about heat, and shutting down.

That is plain ridiculous.

Quote

Firing weapons in groups means you are staring, making you an easy target for the other team, meaning you die faster than if you were to come out and get your damage out then roll away to spread damage.

...

Again, horse crap. With some of the huge alphas being repetitively fired, some 'mechs have alphas so huge you can be cored out without even having to suffer the full duration of the burn.

Worse, light 'mechs enjoy carte blanche to ram themselves into your 'mech's legs/*** pouring multiple alphas into you with little risk due to the lack of knock down, THAT AND, the fact that PGI has felated a large number of lights with structure AND movement quirks means these little ******** defy the laws of physics with their movement profiles.

Quote

... But what about that 3 UAC 10 or 4 UAC 5 Night Gyr that doesn't break the power draw rules? is the belief that 3 UAC 10s or 4 UAC 5s or 5 AC5s actually yield higher TTKs than being able to alpha strike a couple times before being heat capped? In my experience that is not the case. High alpha mechs want to return to cover and cool off, where dakka mechs can keep on shooting at ~15 DPS.

On this I think that the rules being applied to gauss should be applied, in some manner, to most weapons. Gauss is limited to being able to fire two gauss simultaneously, the few 'mechs that can load 3 or more get to suffer being glass cannons AND having this restriction.

Silly, I know, considering that there are 'mechs capable of firing 3 or more PPC's/lasers/ballstics multiple times before hitting a heat barrier, and when they do, all they simply have to do is fade back, and cool off, and come in strong again (that's IF they haven't also loaded coolant pods).

Let's limit the maximum number of identical weapons being fired to ~30 points, that means you can only fire 3 PPC's, or 3 AC/UAC10's, or in the case of AC20's, 2, so on and so forth.

The standard has long been set, a maximum simultaneous fire of identical weapons is ~30 points of damage.

Quote

My concern is that this new "power draw" system will curb mechs ability to "fire and twist" which will lead to 1-dimensional style of play among heavy and assault mechs, which will be both boring and will leave many mechs in the hanger collecting dust, and won't even address TTK. I know some people would say "1-dimensional?? All this game is is laser spam!!", and I would respond by explaining that the experience in the solo public queue is not indicative of what is possible when teamwork is employed. Heavy laser use is a product of its mid-range effectiveness, lack of team cohesion, and lack of understanding of what map you will end up on.

This actually made me laugh out loud, literally. It pretty much is 1 dimensional, in quick play, or faction play queues. That single dimension is:

Alpha.

Whatever weapons you have be they laser vomit, ballistics vomit, a combination there of, alpha, Alpha, ALPHA all the time.

Quote

That being said, I propose that instead of ridiculous heat penalties or ghost damage 2.0, when a laser vomit alphastrike is over "the limit", maybe just make the lasers burn for a longer duration?

Now, I've probably unfortunately pissed you off before we've got to this point and I apologize, wasn't my intent, I just disagree with your solution, BUT, am not necessarily in disagreement with your overall stance on the issue.

Powerdraw?

Really Russ?

For ****'s sake Russ, the answer has been established in the BattleTech world since day one.

It's a goddamned heat affects table, that scales its affect to the amount of heat generated, that if implemented properly could be balanced and tweaked on a per chassis basis, with skill mods and purchasable modules to provide flexibility and unique flavoring per player.

For 30+ f'ing years we've had heat affects in damn near every iteration of BattleTech/MechWarrior, but for whatever reason PGI has thrown out something SO F'ING IMPORTANT, every official 'mech sheet was printed with one.

It makes ZERO SENSE to allow 'mechs to ride 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999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of their shut down threshold for 15/30 minutes of game play with ZERO ill affect on their 'mech or pilot.

As your 'mech's heat approaches shut down, you should be moving slower, having issues with targeting, firing weapons, black outs, etc.

You want players to start pulling back on how often they fire their alphas, or how much they fire their weapons in general, you have GOT to add more RISK to the 'firing willy nilly' mentality people have gotten used to in both quick, faction, and other modes of play.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dimento Graven, on 04 May 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

Stuff

Lot of misinformation here.

Ballistic DPS mechs work just fine in solo quick play and in FP. The difference in FP is you run out of ammo, which sucks because then you have to throw a mech away that would have been fresh otherwise.

SRMs work in the group queue and in FP on some of the brawly maps like Vitric Forge as long as the team is brawling. Again the ammo thing comes up in FP, but in the group queue, on most maps in the game, a fast brawl rush is almost a guaranteed victory.

The only main reason laser vomit is so prevalent is because it does "okay" at situations that it isn't specialized in, and most engagements in FP and quick play are in that perfect ~400-500m range.

Also, typical laser vomit alpha mechs can only do the big 50+ damage alphas twice before having to stagger fire.

1-dimensional.... I'm sorry that the solo queue is devoid of teamwork and or any coordination/planning. It is that randomness that makes the laser alpha vomit builds attractive for that game mode. After seeing the game played at higher levels though, there are many dimensions, and its awesome. Literally the only non-competitive weapons are LRMs and Machine Guns, and even then they have made appearances either in consideration or actually in game. The disconnect between the people who only see the solo queue and those who can see teamwork playout is a travesty, and I wish there was a way to bring that teamwork to the solo queue, but such a large portion of the population has the "don't tell me what to do, I know best" mentality, so it never happens.

The other issue is you can't discuss what you are bringing. If everyone has ER LL and you have SRMs, your gonna have a bad time.

As I've said before, my primary concern with power-draw (ignoring TTK status for the moment, whether or not you think it is too low or okay is an opinion) is that it will affect certain weapons harshly, and leave weapons that are competitive already, to truly dominate, once again reducing the variety we have. There are so many other tweaks to laser vomit that would help TTK but wouldn't throw it in the trash completely so Black Knight/Grasshopper and similar mechs wouldn't just be thrown into the garbage. They are quirked to hell for god's sake, if alpha's are happening too often, remove or reduce the heat generation quirks! Why does a Black Knight need a 15% duration quirk? It doesn't need its alpha to be harder to mitigate. The only mechs that should get duration quirks are ones that are hardpoint starved.

At least we agree on power draw.

I would also agree that maybe some heat penalties would make things interesting, though maybe not as severe as your are thinking.

Having the HUD start to waver and fade, and then getting some penalties to agility near the max would be okay in my book.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 May 2016 - 08:00 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

PhoenixFire55, on 04 May 2016 - 04:37 AM, said:

The thing is ...
You all (and PGI) talk about balancing based on your experience in stupid solo/group PUG queue. Laservomit "meta" for example exsists only there. In highly skilled competitive matches your basic laservomit mech isn't any more popular that anything else. Why?

Because for example when I drop into the normal queue I have no friggin idea what map I'll be playing (which is ret@rded at best), so I bring the mech that'll work decently well on all maps (good alpha, good range, good DPS). Now, if I knew I'd be playing FrozenCity all day, I'd bring a brawler Atlas and wreck those laservomits up close. Same way if I knew I'd be playing Polar all day I'd bring a quad-Gauss Dire or smth and still wreck laservomits etc.

Now when half the people are simply being reasonable and bring the mech that works well on most maps (i.e. meta), there is the other half that brings something else. Brawlers and snipers simply won't work together. Even in competitive matches you rarely see teams split their drop decks to have different kinds of mechs. Either all bring brawlers and all go brawl or none and visa versa. In PUGs good all around ("meta") mechs are preferable because they can provide decent DPS and help brawlers, or have decent range to help snipers.

In solo PUG queue and even group PUG queue people in most cases don't know each other. Now the general train of thought is that I know how well I can play, but I've no clue how well the guy next to me can play, so I don't count on him to carry the team, I count on myself to carry the team, I'll do everything to maximize MY living time. This obviously leads to the peek-a-boo high-alpha kind of gameplay that is dominant ONLY IN PUGS. If you look at any two decent competitive teams going at each other on different maps you'll see entirely different approaches to games played there. Neither brawlers, nor snipers, nor any kind of "meta" you can come up with has an unquestionable advantage.

TTK has nothing to do with weapons, heat generation or whatever else you seem to be debating. TTK depends on focusing fire on single mech/component. When 12 mechs all have LoS and in range of one enemy mech and all shoot that one mech into single component, they'll be able to kill it even if all 12 mechs have exactly one weapon each.

When people start talking about how being in a light and "suddenly" running in front of an enemy Atlas shouldn't equal being insta-evaporated it is plain and simple stupid. If you are in a light and you aren't even aware of where an enemy 100t assaults are it is your own damn fault. Most of those people who get insta-gibbed are either run directly at the Atlas, or better yet park in front of it to start shooting. Same way when you run somewhere to find several enemy mechs shooting at you it is your own damn fault again and their good positioning. What 99% of people do in that situation is stop and reverse, immidiately getting their CT blown off because you become an easy stationary target and above all else the ONLY target your enemies see. When several mechs "suddenly" run around cover to find several enemy mechs their TTK is by far longer, because when we talk about PUG queues there is little to no focusing of fire. But if you do it alone, thinking that you are smarter then the rest or just being dumb YOU make your enemy focus fire on yourself and YOU decrease your own TTK.

The worst cases for low TTK might be the high alpha builds (~80 damage) on Dires and alike, but then again. Even 80 pinpoint dmg won't instantly kill a mech of equal tonnage. And if you are in a medium or light that moves 100+ kph and you can't figure out where an enemy that moves 50 kph at best is then this has nothing to do with TTK, but rather with your own lack of awareness.

When people sometimes type "stay together" in chat in PUGs they mean not just stay close to each other, but also do same things others do, i.e. go outside of cover together, shoot same mechs, take fire equally with your teammates. This brings victory, because it decreases TTK for enemy mechs and icreases TTK for your mechs. The entire PUG queue is not even about meta builds or anything, it is about manouevering to create the numbers advantage, separate small groups of enemy mechs to destroy them easily.

In other words teamwork wins, not meta. And it is teamwork that decreases the TTK.

So... "Everything's fine, teamwork OP, get good." with a dash of PUG-shaming, elitism and anecdotes... The same kind you derided everyone else for.

Teamwork and gameplay methodology has remained a constant in MWO, yet TTK has become increasingly lower as time progressed, thereby disqualifying them as factors for consideration and irrelevant to the topic being discussed, which would be balancing high alphas and damage output.

So if you have anything relevant to the discussion, by all means.

[PhoenixFire55]

DrxAbstract, on 04 May 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

Teamwork and gameplay methodology has remained a constant in MWO, yet TTK has become increasingly lower as time progressed, thereby disqualifying them as factors for consideration and irrelevant to the topic being discussed, which would be balancing high alphas and damage output.

Because hit-reg improvements, regional servers and ELO/PSR never happened [/sarcasm]
FYI TTK was lowest in the times of 6-PPC/4-PPC Stalkers.

I'll say it to you on the language you understand. Git good or gtfo from the topic.

[DrxAbstract]

PhoenixFire55, on 04 May 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

Because hit-reg improvements, regional servers and ELO/PSR never happened [/sarcasm]
FYI TTK was lowest in the times of 6-PPC/4-PPC Stalkers.

I'll say it to you on the language you understand. Git good or gtfo from the topic.

Regional servers and the matchmaker... really? That's your angle? Nonsensical, irrelevant bullsh*t, lol.

FYI TTK was higher in the times of 6-4 PPC Stalkers due, as previously stated, to that type of build being the exception, not the rule as most players (Including comp teams) were running around with 25-35pt alphas compared to nowadays where it's 30-75. So the fact actual Alpha Damage numbers and general DPS increases resultant from various changes have combined to literally double damage output has absolutely no bearing?

Your posting skill needs to 'git gud'.

[Gas Guzzler]

DrxAbstract, on 04 May 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

Regional servers and the matchmaker... really? That's your angle? Nonsensical, irrelevant bullsh*t, lol.

FYI TTK was higher in the times of 6-4 PPC Stalkers due, as previously stated, to that type of build being the exception, not the rule as most players (Including comp teams) were running around with 25-35pt alphas compared to nowadays where it's 30-75. So the fact actual Alpha Damage numbers and general DPS increases resultant from various changes have combined to literally double damage output has absolutely no bearing?

Your posting skill needs to 'git gud'.

I don't know of any comp teams running over a 58 point alpha that doesn't involve SRMs. The Alpha Dire isn't really a thing anymore..

[DrxAbstract]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 May 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

I don't know of any comp teams running over a 58 point alpha that doesn't involve SRMs. The Alpha Dire isn't really a thing anymore..

Your point? Laservomit isnt the only culprit. It might be a convenient example, but it's not the sole reason or issue.

[PhoenixFire55]

Makes you wonder every time where all this clueless trash crawls away from.
Whatever.

Please do tell us more how gameplay methodology before and after separate spawns, before and after poptarting Victors and Highlanders and before and after clan mechs came out is all the same. And how 60 and later 45 actual instant pinpoint damage with 810m effective range was less dangerous that 50-60 damage at 400-450m spread over 0.7 seconds. I'm sure it'll be a cool story.

[Gas Guzzler]

DrxAbstract, on 04 May 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

Your point? Laservomit isnt the only culprit. It might be a convenient example, but it's not the sole reason or issue.

I guess, but SRM alphas aren't pinpoint, I thought everyone was worried about pinpoint only.

[DrxAbstract]

PhoenixFire55, on 04 May 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Makes you wonder every time where all this clueless trash crawls away from.
Whatever.

Please do tell us more how gameplay methodology before and after separate spawns, before and after poptarting Victors and Highlanders and before and after clan mechs came out is all the same. And how 60 and later 45 actual instant pinpoint damage with 810m effective range was less dangerous that 50-60 damage at 400-450m spread over 0.7 seconds. I'm sure it'll be a cool story.

Summarized or explained it already. That you are more intent on being an abrasive and abusive halfwit, it's no surprise that, again, your persistent ignorance exemplifies your clear lack of desiring any meaningful conversation and would rather trash talk.

*golf clap*

Gas Guzzler, on 04 May 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

I guess, but SRM alphas aren't pinpoint, I thought everyone was worried about pinpoint only.

They are indeed not pinpoint, but they are part of the high alpha/damage output issue and are something that can be worked with. Even if you did reduce alpha sizes, you would still have to address high dps builds to some degree.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 04 May 2016 - 09:19 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 May 2016 - 07:57 AM, said:

Lot of misinformation here.

In the interest of this discussion, what did you consider 'misinformation'?

Quote

Ballistic DPS mechs work just fine in solo quick play and in FP. The difference in FP is you run out of ammo, which sucks because then you have to throw a mech away that would have been fresh otherwise.

The problem with complaining about having to throw away a 'mech, after having run out of ammo, in FP is that you fail to mention that if a ballistics pilot has fired his weapons wisely, by the time he's run out of ammo, he's probably gotten multiple kills and done 700 to 1200 points of damage.

If by some interesting circumstances of game play, that 'mech is still full armor (or even 'nearly' so), if that 'mech doesn't have SOME lasers, he's go the option of 'suicide scouting' for the team to get into his next 'mech.

In most reasonable people's opinions, that HARDLY merits as a factor to complain, or an argument for/against the current topic.

Quote

SRMs work in the group queue and in FP on some of the brawly maps like Vitric Forge as long as the team is brawling. Again the ammo thing comes up in FP, but in the group queue, on most maps in the game, a fast brawl rush is almost a guaranteed victory.

Well, with people able to shoot 3 or more SRM6 packs, limiting the maximum number that could be fired simultaneously would reduce the effectiveness of the 'splat rush', AND BEYOND THAT AND/OR INSTEAD OF ADDING A MAXIMUM FIRING LIMITATION, adding an actual heat affects table would limit the effectiveness of that strat too, as people would have to consider that getting beyond a certain heat level could slow them down, make them less accurate, make weapons misfire, etc.

Quote

The only main reason laser vomit is so prevalent is because it does "okay" at situations that it isn't specialized in, and most engagements in FP and quick play are in that perfect ~400-500m range.

Well that and the penchant for the majority of the player base being average skilled loving the 'spray and pray' methodology of fire control...

Quote

Also, typical laser vomit alpha mechs can only do the big 50+ damage alphas twice before having to stagger fire.

Wow, 100+ damage before they have to start NOT alpha'ing every shot?

Explain to me why PGI is so damned worried about 3 or more gauss being fired simultaneously again?

Quote

1-dimensional.... I'm sorry that the solo queue is devoid of teamwork and or any coordination/planning. It is that randomness that makes the laser alpha vomit builds attractive for that game mode. After seeing the game played at higher levels though, there are many dimensions, and its awesome. Literally the only non-competitive weapons are LRMs and Machine Guns, and even then they have made appearances either in consideration or actually in game. The disconnect between the people who only see the solo queue and those who can see teamwork playout is a travesty, and I wish there was a way to bring that teamwork to the solo queue, but such a large portion of the population has the "don't tell me what to do, I know best" mentality, so it never happens.

There's team work in the solo queue, 'pre-planning' not thought out, but those of us who have had 1000+ drops on EVERY damn map, in EVERY damn game mode, have a pretty good idea how the match is going to play out. It's simply a matter of paying attention, as much as possible, to what the rest of the team is doing and coordinating your own movement and targeting to compliment what the majority of the team is doing. There have been PLENTY of matches where someone DOES actually take a 'drop command' role and attempts to 'herd the kittens' into some semblance of team play. Yeah, it doesn't happen ALL the time, but often enough to not be 'out of the ordinary'. Hell, I'm 99% certain that we've dropped together in some of those matches, so I know that you know your representation isn't anywhere near 100%.

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The other issue is you can't discuss what you are bringing. If everyone has ER LL and you have SRMs, your gonna have a bad time.

Only if you play your SRM build like everyone ELSE has SRM builds too. If you play your 'mech appropriate to how everyone else appears to be equipped, you'll probably end up being the rock'em sock'em clean up crew in the last half of the match.

Quote

As I've said before, my primary concern with power-draw (ignoring TTK status for the moment, whether or not you think it is too low or okay is an opinion) is that it will affect certain weapons harshly, and leave weapons that are competitive already, to truly dominate, once again reducing the variety we have.

Yes, I totally agree with you, and absolutely believe that Power Draw, like ghost heat, and so many OTHER 'solutions' from PGI is yet another half-assed, half-though out travesty.

Why the f*** can't we have a properly implemented heat affects table? It only seemed to work VERY WELL for the past 30+ years...

Quote

There are so many other tweaks to laser vomit that would help TTK but wouldn't throw it in the trash completely so Black Knight/Grasshopper and similar mechs wouldn't just be thrown into the garbage. They are quirked to hell for god's sake, if alpha's are happening too often, remove or reduce the heat generation quirks! Why does a Black Knight need a 15% duration quirk? It doesn't need its alpha to be harder to mitigate. The only mechs that should get duration quirks are ones that are hardpoint starved.

The better question is: Why does a BK (and other 'mechs) need duration quirks, PLUS torso structure quirks, PLUS mobility quirks, PLUS have the ability to alpha 2 or 3 times before having worry about heat?

Quote

At least we agree on power draw.

I would also agree that maybe some heat penalties would make things interesting, though maybe not as severe as your are thinking.

Having the HUD start to waver and fade, and then getting some penalties to agility near the max would be okay in my book.

Again, that's what would be great about a properly implemented heat affects table. You could tweak it, server side, as needed, >>AND<< per 'mech/chassis, >>AND<< add skill tree mods, >>AND<< add new modules, that would add a new layer of 'thought' necessary for this 'thinking man's shooter.'

[Mister Blastman]

Lily from animove, on 04 May 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

And increasing skill means, higher skilled palyers get even more advantage. the current standard MWO user can't even figure out to build a proper mech, adding more "Skill" just increases the Abyss.

Good.

I want the weaker players to suffer. I often see folks arguing against adding more skill to the game because often they are set in their ways and have become lazy or they realize they can't handle added depth.

This game needs more depth and if that means bad players are worse at the game, too bad.

[Dimento Graven]

Mister Blastman, on 04 May 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

Good.

I want the weaker players to suffer. I often see folks arguing against adding more skill to the game because often they are set in their ways and have become lazy or they realize they can't handle added depth.

This game needs more depth and if that means bad players are worse at the game, too bad.

True dat!

Really why fear adding 'skill'?

For most people, not running on potatoes, acquiring skill is a matter of practice, and given that the PSR system should do some modicum of skills based separation (and can absolutely be tweaked for even more stringent separation) I don't see this being a bad thing.

Again, why are we so afraid of having this be a 'skills' based game?

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

Ballistics and SRMs are both WELL represented, "all I see" is SRMs, autocannons, lasers, and Gauss. There is lots of variety now at high level play... LRMs and Machine Guns are really all that is missing.

I will also point out that laser vomit mechs that are good at it are also quirked to hell for lasers.. everything on the IS side needs quirks.

How much of that is a product of most matches being on Caustic? I've noticed most seem to be hot maps.

When I see cooler or neutral maps it tends to be laser and gauss heavy. Also most have restrictions designed to prevent a team stacking laservomit mechs.

Not that I'm saying you're wrong but most comp matches are designed to inhibit a stacked laservomit deck (with that special gauss filling).

[Dimento Graven]

MischiefSC, on 04 May 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

How much of that is a product of most matches being on Caustic? I've noticed most seem to be hot maps.

When I see cooler or neutral maps it tends to be laser and gauss heavy. Also most have restrictions designed to prevent a team stacking laservomit mechs.

Not that I'm saying you're wrong but most comp matches are designed to inhibit a stacked laservomit deck (with that special gauss filling).

I see what you're saying, but I'm hoping you're not suggesting PGI balances based off the minority COMP players?

While a LOT can be learned from the comp scene as to preferential 'mech builds when it comes to min/maxing, it doesn't represent the vast majority of play, the public queues, or the previously stated 'end state' of the game in FW.

I get the frustration though. We the players, and PGI for that matter, are trapped by the public queues, originally put in as a 'stop gap' while CW/FW was built. Unfortunately due to IGP's interference and PGI's misplaced prioritizations, we're stuck having to worry about the throw away mode of 'public queues' as the primary focus of balance.

It sucks. Without the public queues as a balance consideration, we COULD have had 10v12 Clan vs. IS, and Clan tech at original full power.

As it is.. Well the game is that proverbial thorough bred horse that was 'comittee'd' into a mentally deficient camel.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 04 May 2016 - 02:22 PM.