27 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Troutmonkey, on 25 May 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

The 1 weapon module per weapon type idea has merit, but I'm not sure if it's enough to justify a rework of the system. As for the modules having downsides... I could be for that if 1. Modules were much cheaper 2. There were more options than range and cool down.
Blacklight: Retribution has this neat little weapon mode system where each type of mag / stock / brack / scope / charm has small bonuses and negatives. Improved ADS speed for reduced running speed? Better running speed but slower reload speed? Slower ADS but improved hip fire accuracy? Lots of small but meaningful choices to make

There should actually be a drawback for using modules, but the only "meaningful" method PGI attempted to balance it was through increasing heat when it came to the range module.

It's not really meaningful, but right now modules are straight upgrades.


Two thoughts in properly applying them...

Cooldown modules still increase cooldown (-10%, down from -12%), but should give up range (-12% range) or damage (-10% - may consider keeping the existing cooldown value)

Range modules still increase range (+10%), but should give up cooldown (+10%) or some other metric that isn't strictly heat (like 10% longer duration for lasers or something along those lines).



The thing is, I don't think PGI is creative enough to come up with basic changes like this, so, it'll never happen.

There should be projectile speed increase modules, trading in for less damage/increased cooldown/DPS (or increased UAC jams or increased LBX spread).

There should be laser duration reduction modules, trading in for less damage or increased cooldowns.

It's Lostech really.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 May 2016 - 05:14 PM.

[1453 R]

Troutmonkey, on 25 May 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

Thing is barely anyone is willing to add heat in exchange for anything. Pretty much why the previous system failed, the negative were too great. Now if they could do mods that dropped heat in exchange for less range or longer cooldowns, that might be viable.

+heat for increased range is a constant negative for a situational positive, which isn't going to go over with a lot of folks, yeah. Would I retain cooldown modules that also increased weapon heat, or had some other negative, on something like an SRM cruiser that needs to cycle its guns as fast as humanly possible? yeah, I would. Besides, the system remains meaningless if there are drawbacks, but those drawbacks are so negligible as to be completely ignorable.

[oldradagast]

Weapon modules are a scourge on this game in their current form.

They are straight-out, mindless upgrades to the mech that act as nothing more than cbill sinks. "Buy these or be inferior." They also mesh depressingly well with the boating meta-game given how they work.

Increasing the number has no real effect since boating is driven far more by the game's design than by module design. Or, even if the Black Knight had 100 weapon module slots, it would still be running nothing but pulse lasers. Same with the KD-3 - it will still be boating a single ballistic type.

Personally, I'd scrap the entire system for weapon modules and start over. The range ones are too bad, though they are still pure upgrades, but the DPS ones are a terrible idea in game where TTK is already lower than it should be based on the Lore and the subject matter.

Edited by oldradagast, 25 May 2016 - 06:13 PM.

[dario03]

oldradagast, on 25 May 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

Weapon modules are a scourge on this game in their current form.

They are straight-out, mindless upgrades to the mech that act as nothing more than cbill sinks. "Buy these or be inferior." They also mesh depressingly well with the boating meta-game given how they work.

Increasing the number has no real effect since boating is driven far more by the game's design than by module design. Or, even if the Black Knight had 100 weapon module slots, it would still be running nothing but pulse lasers. Same with the KD-3 - it will still be boating a single ballistic type.

Personally, I'd scrap the entire system for weapon modules and start over. The range ones are too bad, though they are still pure upgrades, but the DPS ones are a terrible idea in game where TTK is already lower than it should be based on the Lore and the subject matter.

That seems a little contradictory. You say modules are a straight-out upgrades (which they are) and that they mesh well with boating (which they do) but then say that changing it so that multiple weapon builds could use modules on all weapons wouldn't do anything. It might not stop boating entirely (and I didn't intend for it to) but it would let the non boats not have "inferior" non-module equipped weapons.

[oldradagast]

dario03, on 26 May 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

That seems a little contradictory. You say modules are a straight-out upgrades (which they are) and that they mesh well with boating (which they do) but then say that changing it so that multiple weapon builds could use modules on all weapons wouldn't do anything. It might not stop boating entirely (and I didn't intend for it to) but it would let the non boats not have "inferior" non-module equipped weapons.

Because beyond a certain point adding more weapon modules will not matter since adding more weapons types to the mech either becomes impossible or simply flat-out weakens the build.

For example, if a Kodiak had infinite weapon module slots and say the player had infinite in-game money, he still wouldn't run something like: 1 LBX-20, 1 UAC-2, 1 LRM-15, 2 ER medium lasers, and 2 ERPPC's. Such a build is horribly ineffective in this game (and probably would be awful even in tabletop.) and allowing weapon modules for each weapon won't change that.

The boating issue needs to be addressed, but at least PGI could do something more interesting with the weapon modules than the current "yeah, we know you're going to boat weapons, so here's a flat-out upgrade to the weapon you're boating - have a nice day." The lack of creativity is depressing, and modules are just another way new players lose out to older players with more in-game resources. There's no "skill" in putting a cool-down module in your mech, and no drawback to it.

Edited by oldradagast, 26 May 2016 - 03:40 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Just to throw it out there:..

Personally, I would have preferred a system where weapon modules were installed on the weapons themselves, and affected only the specific weapon on which they were installed.
For example: a stock Awesone that wanted to increase the range of its PPCs would have to purchase three separate PPC Range modules and install one on each PPC.

Personally, I'd also like to see the return of trade-offs for modules, as well.
For example: "Weapon Module A" might have the upside of increasing range by some percentage while having the downside of increasing heat-per-salvo by some other percentage, while "Weapon Module B" might have the upside of decreasing heat-per-salvo by some percentage (not necessarily equal to A's downside) while having the downside of increasing the weapon's recycle time. So, equipping both of those modules may (or may not) "cancel-out" the heat aspect, but the net effect would be a longer-ranged weapon with a longer recycle time (compared to the moduleless "standard model").

[Ace Selin]

Not unlimited, definitely not, never, no way, no how should they be unlimited, but say 10, that should do.

[dario03]

oldradagast, on 26 May 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

Because beyond a certain point adding more weapon modules will not matter since adding more weapons types to the mech either becomes impossible or simply flat-out weakens the build.

For example, if a Kodiak had infinite weapon module slots and say the player had infinite in-game money, he still wouldn't run something like: 1 LBX-20, 1 UAC-2, 1 LRM-15, 2 ER medium lasers, and 2 ERPPC's. Such a build is horribly ineffective in this game (and probably would be awful even in tabletop.) and allowing weapon modules for each weapon won't change that.

The boating issue needs to be addressed, but at least PGI could do something more interesting with the weapon modules than the current "yeah, we know you're going to boat weapons, so here's a flat-out upgrade to the weapon you're boating - have a nice day." The lack of creativity is depressing, and modules are just another way new players lose out to older players with more in-game resources. There's no "skill" in putting a cool-down module in your mech, and no drawback to it.

Well yeah a whole new system would be awesome. But that would require a lot more so I don't think it would happen anytime soon, and I prefer not going with a all or nothing kind of approach. Putting more weapon module slots on the mechs won't make people run 5 weapon types all the time, and I wasn't aiming for that. But it would benefit mechs that run 2 or 3 weapon types, which makes those a bit more effecient and thus some builds might not be as boaty.