77 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

But to see a game as lore rich as MWO is based on, basically be a generic stompy Bot Shooter? Would be like a Star Wars games being just another CoD, with Star Wars skins.

Part of the problem is their holding pattern with some of the lore construction rules. Many robots feel too similar in play and role, where as you look at Overwatch and its heroes and the TF2 before and characters have different playstyles and flavor to them (granted voices help emphasize the flavor in those types of games) and I feel like if they had stretched the construction rules in favor of just starting off with quirks and hardpoint restrictions (sized or stricter type based). Basically the difference between many robots needs to be a bit more starker and they need to increase their options for differences. IMO, rules get in the way of flavor in many cases for MWO.

Honestly it makes me wish we had sort of a stock+ mode thinking about it, where you can tweak some things, but otherwise customization wouldn't be nearly as open as it is currently (and stock configs wouldn't be nearly as bad as some are), especially if you are trying to make room for 300+ mechs in the game.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 May 2016 - 08:43 AM.

[LowSubmarino]

Always though it's interesting how absolutely great a chassis can be if its geometry is fantastic. E.G. arms actually covering the torso acting as a real shield. Cockpit level, close (vs wide) harpoints, an overall profile that is rather slender than broad, inviting ppl to miss rather than hit their mech.

I can imagine that real mech's value and power in a real life situation is determined by a lot of other factors.

But in mwo a bad design and especially bad hitboxes or simply too big a torso (and subsequently side torsos) can spell disaster.

The Awesome would be an example.

Its simply way too easy to hit a specific torso or part of a torso.

Combine a slender chassis with good/high/cockpitlevel harpoints and while youre at it give it good mobility and a suitable number of heardpoints for boating and piff paff....you have a very strong mech. At least in mwo.

Could be cool if you have a temporary quirk system.

Ingame.

So if you run a low level tier mech and you manage to do good (dmg, assissts, scout, intel) and really perform well, you get a boost ingame. A great scout could receive a speed bonus. That increases (up to a certain threshhold) the better he or she scouts.

A brawler that decimates mech after mech, twisting very good, avoiding dmg, destroying component left and right with great aim gets a structure buff ingame.

And so forth.

Mechs that are considered high tier can get buffs too but not as high as somebody who runs a really low tier mech.

The amount and quality of temporal buffs could also be influenced by the current balance between the two teams.

If lets say you play well but your team is already dominating and the opposing team is down 7 mechs then you wont get a 10 % energy heat quirk.

But if your team is down 5 mechs and you do really well in an absolutely low tier mech then it would be cool if you get strong temporal buffs. Just for that specific game. And only if you played really well. So you get lets say a structure buff + a heat dissipation buff. And you gain a temporal title in that specific game or you have some kind of medal floating over your mech.

So ppl can see you and your mech gained a promotion in that specific game.

This would be a more dynamic quirk system. It would allow players that perform well to gain bonuses if and when they play well. No matter the mech. So even if you play a really bad mech your skill makes the mech better than it actually is.

Its just an idea.

But something like this, a more dynamic way to balance mechs or to reward players skill and performance would make every game an even more unique experience.

And im my experience, games that provide a unique and fresh and fun experience every time will be played for a long, very long time.

Right now the leveling and quirkening of mechs is very static.

I think if would be great if your performance ingame actually has a real effect on the game. Not just in terms of winning or loosing by killing and damaging other mechs.

But by also increasing a mechs potency. Wont have to be super over the top quirks. But let a great scout run a little faster. Let a great brawler get a little bit more structure. Give a great sniper a bit more range or some other kind of buff and so on.

And since you have to perform well you wont get those buffs right away. Maybe in steps. So everybody can get very small buffs (also depending on tier of mech and remaining number of mechs in your team) very easily. Say, if you manage to get 2 assists and 250 dmg you get some minor buff in that game and a rank. The kind of buff is determined by the way your contributed to the game and also to the above mentioned variables.

I think something like that (or some other dynamic ranking or buffing system ingame) would be great for mwo.

It would give players another very strong incentive to not only play good but to also try out different loadouts and more importantly different mechs.

Ppl will prolly love to do really well in trash mechs and buff them ingame.

I know I would love to do that.

Just an idea though.

[Mavairo]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

and this is one reason most of the Lore loving whales left. Generic Mech shooter where mechs are recognizable by name only.

SRM-Archers, Stump Armed Ballistic Nippled Warhammers, Medium Laser and Dakka Marauders....

I actually removed the AC5s and LLs from my green, purple and blue warhammer. PPCs +AC10 and some small lasers hehe.

SRM archer is honestly not all that lore breaking. Now if it was Pure Wub Archers...THAT would be depressing imo.

[Roadkill]

Alistair Winter, on 26 May 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

What went wrong here?

PGI.

The Archer is an iconic LRM Mech. PGI gave it quirks that, at best, encourage it to be used as an SRM brawler. From what I've seen, it's adequate in that role, but only adequate due to its chassis design.

I suspect that most of the disappointment - mine included - comes from the fact that we were expecting/hoping for an iconic LRM Mech and instead received yet another SRM/pulse laser brawler.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

Part of the problem is their holding pattern with some of the lore construction rules. Many robots feel too similar in play and role, where as you look at Overwatch and its heroes and the TF2 before and characters have different playstyles and flavor to them (granted voices help emphasize the flavor in those types of games) and I feel like if they had stretched the construction rules in favor of just starting off with quirks and hardpoint restrictions (sized or stricter type based). Basically the difference between many robots needs to be a bit more starker and they need to increase their options for differences. IMO, rules get in the way of flavor in many cases for MWO.

Honestly it makes me wish we had sort of a stock+ mode thinking about it, where you can tweak some things, but otherwise customization wouldn't be nearly as open as it is currently (and stock configs wouldn't be nearly as bad as some are), especially if you are trying to make room for 300+ mechs in the game.

careful, you're starting to sound suspiciously like a LoreNerd Potato like me, and not a Legit TRVEKOMP player. You might get your PUGFarmer Union Card revoked......

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

careful, you're starting to sound suspiciously like a LoreNerd Potato like me, and not a Legit TRVEKOMP player. You might get your PUGFarmer Union Card revoked......

I'm both, but to be fair, I liked the days of MW4 where you might have one specific weapon loadout and like 5 different variations on it (whether it be one has extra weapons, one has refl, one has reac, one has speed, one has heat sinks, etc). When you have 300+ variants you pretty much have to limit customization down to that to make sure each mech offers something unique enough to where there really is only one build per variant.

I also think some of the tonnages of equipment and mechs could stand to be redone like I mentioned in that other thread so we don't have the dynamic of ballistics being more important the heavier you are and energy weapons being the reverse. Basically this is where I lose any LoreNerd standing is that I believe BT really should be re-imagined when it comes to the MW series, the TT rules get in the way of the potential of this game to be a more vibrant game than Overwatch and TF2 (which have more spirit than this game imo) since it has a lot of lore to pull from and work with (though I kinda wish they would 'fix' some of the cheesy portions of BT, but then again, I liked the Jihad era).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 May 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[Apnu]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

and this is one reason most of the Lore loving whales left. Generic Mech shooter where mechs are recognizable by name only.

SRM-Archers, Stump Armed Ballistic Nippled Warhammers, Medium Laser and Dakka Marauders....

The underwhelming nature of the archers put me off buying more from PGI. I went whole hog on the MAD, WHM, and ARC. I got the cheap pack for the PHX, and I'm skipping the Cyclops. I also skip clan mechs.

I wanted a beast LRM heavy. Even given how broken LRMs are. I love my HBK-4J. Its sad as hell the WHM-7S does LRMs better than any Archer.

[Jackal Noble]

But did you get those 7 kills in the vindi post nerfing? Hmmmmmmmm? Out of curiosity nothing else

[Bishop Steiner]

JackalBeast, on 26 May 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

But did you get those 7 kills in the vindi post nerfing? Hmmmmmmmm? Out of curiosity nothing else

got them during the Chassis Challenge.... not even sure if they had quirks yet, or if so what they were. But even then the VND was considered 100% DoA.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

I'm both, but to be fair, I liked the days of MW4 where you might have one specific weapon loadout and like 5 different variations on it (whether it be one has extra weapons, one has refl, one has reac, one has speed, one has heat sinks, etc). When you have 300+ variants you pretty much have to limit customization down to that to make sure each mech offers something unique enough to where there really is only one build per variant.

I also think some of the tonnages of equipment and mechs could stand to be redone like I mentioned in that other thread so we don't have the dynamic of ballistics being more important the heavier you are and energy weapons being the reverse. Basically this is where I lose any LoreNerd standing is that I believe BT really should be re-imagined when it comes to the MW series, the TT rules get in the way of the potential of this game to be a more vibrant game than Overwatch and TF2 (which have more spirit than this game imo) since it has a lot of lore to pull from and work with (though I kinda wish they would 'fix' some of the cheesy portions of BT, but then again, I liked the Jihad era).

and I'm torn there.

You see to me that treads on Mech Assault type territory. I prefer to maintain the bones of TT as the outline, and then flesh out and tweak the "soft numbers" more, which is the approach PGI largely took, they just have been less than stellar at those tweaks.

Honestly, I think the basic MWO game would operate jsut fine with a few basic fundamental changes:
- Sized Hardpoints. Despite the QQ, it actually increase global diversity, at the expense of specific "variety".
-Meaningful Heatscale: One could pretty much copypasta the TT Heatscale, where you start seeing effects for riding hot. Maybe adjust the tolerance zone slightly (keep under say 33-50% no effects) then condense the remaining effects into the upper part of the heatbar. Sluggish response, HUD issues, and toward the very top, like say 80% and above, if you stay for more than say 3-5 seconds, you have potential ammo explosion.
-Meaningful and immersive aiming mechanics. As much as certain parts of the Comp Pop of MWO decry it, there's a reason virtually every other shooter uses some form. And let's be honest, aiming in MWO is so easy a braindead 3 toed sloth with cataracts can do it.
- Quirks severely curtailed, and used to 1) fix glaring issues with Geometry/Hardpoint that can't be fixed "natively", 2) enhance flavor, role characteristics.

those things would make massive differences, and also make balancing the remainder, far easier.

[Mavairo]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

Long Range Missile Mech, the premiere LRMboat of Btech. A couple models had a pair of SRM4/Streaks for point defense.

Yeah, still missiles, but that's like saying the maxi-armored 2xAC20 Jagermech was what lore intended when it gave us a mech with 45% theoretical armor and 2xAC5/2xAC2....... Still ACs, but totally different role and feel.

It's one thing that I love when driving my RFL-3N... mid range fire support mech that's is a Glass Cannon, because thankfully Teddy and his whine brigade didn't convince Russ to uber Buff it's structure. (Now if only the Jager gets similar treatment in the requirkening.....)

Mind you, for the "lore" Archer to happen, either LRMs need a serious overhaul (well, DUH!) or the ARC needs serious spread reduction/range/velocity/cooldown quirks for those 15720 racks.

Mind you, would prefer the LRM fixed, but atm would settle with havign a REASON to run LRM20s even if only in badlandia pug quickplay on my ARC-2R, and 15s on my 5W and 5S.

It's the LRMs that need a buff.. or maybe just LRMS on actual LRM mechs via quirks.
I'd love to have LRM Archers. I've not gotten my Archers yet, but all the ones I've built on smurfy, are strictly packin SRM6s lol

[Ultimax]

TercieI, on 26 May 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

I actually sympathize with your POV, but that's on PGI for failing to reflect the lore, IMO.

Yeah, I mena it's on PGI to make Lore focused builds not also be a hinderance.

I dont have an aversion to arm mounts, hell I love extra yaw and control.

Unfortunately that means I will always end up shooting rocks and eating enemy fire to the face while I try to clear terrain to use my arms with elbows PERMANENTLY PINNED TO MY HIPS.


I could live with losing out on the bonus tonnage from stripping arms, but I'm not going to shoot dirt all the time AND also lose out on "free" tonnage.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

and I'm torn there.

You see to me that treads on Mech Assault type territory.

Oh trust me, I'm aware, the key thing is that it keeps the 'feel' and basics of gameplay (which is what Mechassault did away with) like each section having their own health. I'm more focused on the mechlab aspects of the TT rules than anything, which MW4 did change for the better (for the most part).

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

And let's be honest, aiming in MWO is so easy a braindead 3 toed sloth with cataracts can do it.

You say that, but I've seen the aim in potatoland, and if a braindead 3 toed sloth with cataracts can do it, what does that say about the spuds who can't?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 May 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

Oh trust me, I'm aware, the key thing is that it keeps the 'feel' and basics of gameplay (which is what Mechassault did away with) like each section having their own health. I'm more focused on the mechlab aspects of the TT rules than anything, which MW4 did change for the better (for the most part).


You say that, but I've seen the aim in potatoland, and if a braindead 3 toed sloth with cataracts can do it, what does that say about the spuds who can't?

that there is a reason they are playing here in slow mo shooter land instead of actual twitch games? Cuz the vast majority of the gaming population is pretty bad, honestly?

Heck, I'm old (slow reflexes) with a right wrist that been surgically rebuilt 3 times (slower reflexes and pain and barely functional hand) playing on a true Spud of a laptop, and readily keep up on the higher end of the gene pool in Quick Play (High end of Average/Low End of Good) and even the lower levels of competitive team play when I really try. Probably more to tactical awareness and understanding of the game, than because of actual "skill".

Yet put me in Titanfall, or most actual Twitch Titles and I'm not just a potato, but potato salad. Because MWO IS that much easier to react and aim in. (Mind you there are other considerations, but those don't realyl affect how easy aiming is).

[Malleus011]

Apnu, on 26 May 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

The underwhelming nature of the archers put me off buying more from PGI. I went whole hog on the MAD, WHM, and ARC. I got the cheap pack for the PHX, and I'm skipping the Cyclops. I also skip clan mechs.

I wanted a beast LRM heavy. Even given how broken LRMs are. I love my HBK-4J. Its sad as hell the WHM-7S does LRMs better than any Archer.

Same for me. Poor Archer delivery has held me to the basic 20$ Phoenix Hawk pack and no Cyclops - after getting *every* option for Warhammer and Marauder and all but LK for Rifleman (I hate the LK paint scheme). I also don't buy Clans.

PGI is driving away business.

Edited by Malleus011, 26 May 2016 - 11:24 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

Yet put me in Titanfall, or most actual Twitch Titles and I'm not just a potato, but potato salad. Because MWO IS that much easier to react and aim in. (Mind you there are other considerations, but those don't realyl affect how easy aiming is).

Don't get me wrong, the aiming in other games like that is much more twitch based and thus the difference in that twitch ability is much more substantial, but despite the bad aiming, I've seen a lot of people who still have trouble with the aiming in this game. I'm sure its not as bad as I think simply because the people with bad aim are more memorable for it, but man.

Either way, I'm not too concerned about the ease of aiming, it is still the main reason I think positioning is so important in this game.

[DAYLEET]

Alistair Winter, on 26 May 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

What went wrong here?

People started piling LRM on it.

Alistair Winter, on 26 May 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

. I don't quite remember the hype during the pre-order phase,

It was all "LUL LRM and ECM im going to make people cry nerf lrm" Turns out ecm didnt make lrm use easier/user better.

Edited by DAYLEET, 26 May 2016 - 11:47 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, the aiming in other games like that is much more twitch based and thus the difference in that twitch ability is much more substantial, but despite the bad aiming, I've seen a lot of people who still have trouble with the aiming in this game. I'm sure its not as bad as I think simply because the people with bad aim are more memorable for it, but man.

Either way, I'm not too concerned about the ease of aiming, it is still the main reason I think positioning is so important in this game.

but would more in depth aiming really impact the need for positioning terribly, or just help reduce the focus fire effect on TTK some? I mean, shooting a mech is still shooting the broad side of a barn.

No one in their right mind wants RNG shooting hitting RNG hit locations.... but the Btech Health System was built around that, as we can see by how quickly 100 ton war machines can get cored out, despite in some cases having 3x as much health. And I sure don't liek the "increase HP/Nerf damage" arguments.

TT the big thing was that hitting a mech in combat, especially at range was HARD. Seeing that emulated with various minor aiming effects tied to extremes (high heat, flank speed, extreme range and jumping) IMO adds not only immersion but actual skill, because our aim is too unaffected, IMO. Simple fact is making a 1000 meter snap shot while running top speed across broken terrain, or jumping, should be pretty dang hard, and doubly so to pick your hit location, and repeat. At the same time, if someone does draw that perfect bead on a mech with an AC20, it's supposed to hurt. A LOT.

But with our perfect convergence, pick a pixel aiming and focus fire, the only way to increase overall TTK is by increasing Health or Reducing Dmg (or really crappy mechanics like GH and probably Power Draw). Conversely minor CoF effects and reticle sway, etc (note MINOR, none of that aim center mass and miss stuff) would reduce the ease of targeting without removing the skill, or turning the game into PaperCut Warrior Online.

Anyhow, just my take.

[Bishop Steiner]

Malleus011, on 26 May 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

Same for me. Poor Archer delivery has held me to the basic 20$ Phoenix Hawk pack and no Cyclops - after getting *every* option for Warhammer and Marauder and all but LK for Rifleman (I hate the LK paint scheme). I also don't buy Clans.

PGI is driving away business.

Ugh, The TH before it Russ was very blase about everything, then the Countdown was lackluster, and we got the "He Said/She Said Bulls**t" when some of us blew them up about Quirks... to be told they weren't the "final" ones by Paul... then to be told last second that they were and we would like it by Russ.... only to have them bomb miserably, and them have to re-quirk them before they dared host a Leaderboard Event for them (and yes naysayers, every chassis from WHM to KDK had it the weekend of the release EXCEPT for the ARC).. and while at least making them defensively viable, still largely missed the mark offensively.

Oh and then we also got told that despite the Global Rescale they still had made the Archer too small and in June it will get bigger.

And then we had the last "EFF YOU" Town Hall...... and all signs are they are skipping one entirely this month.

*SMH*

I've White Knighted a lot of stuff, but the last few months have been to the best of my understanding a crapstorm largely of PGIs own concoction.

[ChapeL]

The Archer isn't a Viking or a Yeoman, it is expected to bring something else to a party than LRMs. My favorite is a 2R which has a pair of LRM 10 with sufficient ammo to be usefull in LOS situations. I don't expect to kill anything with them ( yet I do sometimes ) and it gives me an option at extreme ranges or in indirect support situations. The real firepower is the pair or Large lasers and quartet of mediums it also brings. I don't get into people's faces yet I don't sit way out in the back. 74 kph from my standard engine is plenty of speed to keep me where I want to be and a good match is anywhere from 600 to 800 with 1-3 kills.

I like the mech enough that I may actually consider upgrading to the 2R(s) for the added C-Bill boost.