33 replies to this topic

[TooDumbToQuit]

Because older players tell new players to go play Quick Play then try to help them.

I've seen it 100's of times. New players, players that really are needed in Clans like Wolf etc, are instead told to funk off.

And yet most of them what to know what to do and the reason for doing it. It nice to write it here in the forums, but few read it.

Someone needs to stand up on each drop and say "I know most of you know this but"......I started at the beginning of the last Faction Event. I went through a month before someone told me that to kill the Gens, you need to shoot through a "window".

Simple things are not explained, yet there are players and some really good ones that start during the first drop complaining and then "quit" because the other players are "losers". And on drops like this where they are made to feel like crap, new players decide to quit.

I've had players ask me if "that guy" is still playing because they do not want to play with him. Some of these now complaining and bitching players are also friends so I could not simply go over what was Wolf chat: Yeap, that abusive dixk is still playing.

[Count Zero 74]

We're fighting Clans? Since when? Did I miss something ?

[Reza Malin]

Commander A9, on 10 June 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

Because people have YET to understand that to win at Faction Warfare/Community Warfare requires teamwork.

When your drop commanders calls a push, and half the team breaks off to engage the enemy rather than push to where the drop commander calls for, you tend to see teams fold and lose-horribly.

Then you have the people who refuse to follow orders simply because orders are being given.

Then you have the people who think bringing missiles into Community Warfare is a good idea.

Then you have people who are more concerned about stat-padding than actually winning the match.

Quoted for pure truth.

My favourite is the people who refuse to follow an order, on the principle that someone else is telling them to do something. Its absolutely ********.

[Spider00x]

People learn how to play the game in quickplay where is a free for all run around poke around corners set up. In FW you have to unlearn all you know and learn how to push and brawl as team. IS is set up for brawling where clan mechs are set up for range, on top of that there are very few brawling maps left in QP after they messed with frozen city.

[multisoul]

if you want gameplay balance organizes vs not organized groups, mechs should take damage each time someone communicates lol
then the savages would stand a chance against civilazion

[Jon Gotham]

Aerei, on 07 July 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

Allow me to put that in a context that is actually useful.

I think we all know, or should know by now, that clans have more range and more damage than their IS counterparts. I'm sure most of us also know that IS mechs generally have a lower beam duration and lower heat. However, judging from the poor long range trades that generally prevail in IS, most people, I gather, don't understand the importance of that duration.

Your IS weapons have a lower optimal damage, so you can't be fighting at extreme range, but at 500-700 range, you can win relevant trades. An IS mech can peek out, fire its shot, and will naturally take return fire. However, chances are that the IS laser will finish its shot first. As soon as your beam duration is done, or nearly done, twist out of the way and give the clan laser your shield arm, then start getting back into cover. Even if you take the full beam, if you had good aim, chances are you dealt all your damage on one component, because the clan mech was focused on shooting you, rather than twisting. This means that even if you took more percentage damage, you may have hit more important components, and your damage wasn't spread.

To sum that up, you may have taken more damage, but he's closer to dying.

This is even more important when you consider the number of IS mechs that have twist speed quirks, and that some clan setups have negative twist speed quirks. IS mechs also have structure quirks. I may be beating a dead horse here, but you need to use all those quirks together--twist speed and low duration to spread out damage, and then the structure quirks to absorb the damage differential.

Clan mechs have the challenge of managing heat, due to weaker DHS and high heat weapons. They need to decide when to bring the full power of their insane alphas to bear, and when to hold back.

IS, on the other hand, has to be wily. We don't have the range of clan weapons, but we can twist faster, take more hits (on average), have shorter durations, and sometimes even have acceleration and deceleration quirks. We need to use all of those together to reduce our facetime,and apply trades with finesse instead of raw, overwhelming power.

Maybe that makes it harder for IS to trade favorably, but it's certainly not impossible. Heck, I would even say that a competitively IS pilot, assuming mechs have comparable weapon loadouts, has a slight advantage over an equally skilled clanner when it comes to trades.

This does apply to things like IS ACs vs clan Ultra ACs as well. If you're quick on the draw, you can twist and spread damage from clan UACs. Clan mechs, ironically, have less precision. Take advantage of that.

This person gets it, why so many don't?

[blackbullitt]

got to realize clan mechs are op and for some reason they don't want to fix it, no more money from me till they do, there is alot of talk of us leaving the game and refusals to fight clans.i keep hearing top management knows it has stated it and is to stubborn to fix it.

[Cart]

Aerei, on 07 July 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

Allow me to put that in a context that is actually useful.

I think we all know, or should know by now, that clans have more range and more damage than their IS counterparts. I'm sure most of us also know that IS mechs generally have a lower beam duration and lower heat. However, judging from the poor long range trades that generally prevail in IS, most people, I gather, don't understand the importance of that duration.

Your IS weapons have a lower optimal damage, so you can't be fighting at extreme range, but at 500-700 range, you can win relevant trades. An IS mech can peek out, fire its shot, and will naturally take return fire. However, chances are that the IS laser will finish its shot first. As soon as your beam duration is done, or nearly done, twist out of the way and give the clan laser your shield arm, then start getting back into cover. Even if you take the full beam, if you had good aim, chances are you dealt all your damage on one component, because the clan mech was focused on shooting you, rather than twisting. This means that even if you took more percentage damage, you may have hit more important components, and your damage wasn't spread.

To sum that up, you may have taken more damage, but he's closer to dying.

I know what you're pointing at...but no, not really...
Calculating example:
Clan-ER-Large-Laser: 11 damage with 1.5s duration, makes 7.3 damage/s (740m optimal range)
IS-ER-Large-Laser: 9 damage with 1.25s duration, makes 7.2 damage/s (675m optimal range)
IS-Large-Laser: 9 damage with 1s duration, makes 9 damage/s (450m optimal range)
So, until 450m, you're right...at that point the IS has a slight advantage with the standard Large-Laser against the Clan-ER-Large-Laser...
(EDIT: ...but compared to the Clan-ER-Medium-Laser: 7 damage (till 405m) with 1.15s duration -> 6.1 damage/s...surely lesser than the IS-Large-Laser, but weighing only one ton and you can pick easily 6 (or more) of them in anything from 50t up...)
But 500-700m?!
At 600m the Damage of the standard IS-Large-Laser is reduced to 6, with 1s duration, meaning 6 damage/s.
Event more extreme at 600m:
Clan-Large-Pulse-Laser: 13 damage with 1.12s duration -> 11.6 damage/s
IS-Large-Pulse-Laser: 11 damage at 365m -> 3.9 damge with 0,67s duration -> 5,8 damage/s

That's basically confirming what the creator of the thread meant.

But I agree with your quote, that in the end it is the player and it's aiming which is deciding...

The Problem is, when one or two players feel confident with sniping and poking while the rest of the team is pushing...I don't know if the 2 snipers are that useful in this moment...

Edited by Cart, 08 August 2016 - 09:24 AM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Cart, on 07 August 2016 - 02:20 AM, said:

The Problem is, when one or two players feel confident with sniping and poking while the rest of the team is pushing...I don't know if the 2 snipers are that useful in this moment...

This. Exactly this. There have been SOOOO many times, in quick play and CW, when I've gotten my Widows organized together in a decent position to push at the enemy, and my guys push, but two or three of the pugs insist on holding back and sniping with their 75-100 ton mechs, instead of pushing with the main force, and because they're cowering in the back, too afraid to take hits, our push initially goes well, but then falls apart because we don't have enough mechs on the line, sharing damage (which is HUGELY important), and putting sustained/concentrated fire into the enemy.

It has been my experience over the years that, while Clan mechs have the advantage at range, and they still retain a substantial advantage at range, and while some of the builds have an advantage at short range (SRMcrow, et al), winning against Clans and losing against Clans still revolves around positioning and maneuvering far more than the tech advantage the Clans have. That advantage means you have less margin for error, and it makes it more of a challenge to out maneuver and out position them, but it still comes down to the basic principle of getting as many of your mechs to fire on the enemy as you can, while exposing your mechs to as few of the enemy mechs as possible. The teams that win are the ones that know how to optimize that, and whose players are disciplined and coordinated enough to follow through with it. The teams that lose are the ones who don't.

[Surn]

kodiak, sustained dps, armor quirks, speed and clan tech. The is now has neither range nor brawling advantage. Adjust tactics or lose. Wake up, clan mechs do not shutdown easier than inner sphere mechs anymore.

[Jon Gotham]

Cart, on 07 August 2016 - 02:20 AM, said:

I know what you're pointing at...but no, not really...
Calculating example:
Clan-ER-Large-Laser: 11 damage with 1.5s duration, makes 7.3 damage/s (740m optimal range)
IS-ER-Large-Laser: 9 damage with 1.25s duration, makes 7.2 damage/s (675m optimal range)
IS-Large-Laser: 9 damage with 1s duration, makes 9 damage/s (450m optimal range)
So, until 450m, you're right...at that point the IS has a slight advantage with the standard Large-Laser against the Clan-ER-Large-Laser...
(EDIT: ...but compared to the Clan-ER-Medium-Laser: 7 damage (till 405m) with 1.15s duration -> 6.1 damage/s...surely lesser than the IS-Large-Laser, but weighing only one ton and you can pick easily 6 (or more) of them in anything from 50t up...)
But 500-700m?!
At 600m the Damage of the standard IS-Large-Laser is reduced to 6, with 1s duration, meaning 6 damage/s.
Event more extreme at 600m:
Clan-Large-Pulse-Laser: 13 damage with 1.12s duration -> 11.6 damage/s
IS-Large-Pulse-Laser: 11 damage at 365m -> 3.9 damge with 0,67s duration -> 5,8 damage/s

That's basically confirming what the creator of the thread meant.

But I agree with your quote, that in the end it is the player and it's aiming which is deciding...

The Problem is, when one or two players feel confident with sniping and poking while the rest of the team is pushing...I don't know if the 2 snipers are that useful in this moment...

You have to factor in quirks to those numbers though. many of the mechs that would use the er larges for example, would have some kind of duration quirk-making their damage delivery speed superior. then also add heat quirks so they can fire maybe one more laser compared to the clan opponent over any given contact window and the story changes drastically.
Then add structure quirks to the Is mech firing the er larges and it changes yet again....over the given contact window the clanner is not making a good trade at all.
Now think on spreading that 11 damage over 3-4 components or the 9 from the Is over just 2......
The range thing is actually a disadvantage as spread just increases the further out you fire due to a small angle at gun end becoming much larger at target....
The Is mechs currently are amazing, you just have to play to their strengths as currently quirked. If you do clanners are easy prey frankly.

[Wecx]

Playing as IS is not intuitive to the average person. When your team has to get into range while facing High Alphas, usually you will loose a couple mechs in the process. The average person goes into self preservation mode when seeing teammates die around you. This is human nature, and is why you see really good pushes come to a halt.

Having to push through High Alphas can be extremely discouraging to new players. Its like WW1 and going over the top against machinegun fire. Sure you may get to the other trench and stab your enemy to death and win, but how many people die in the process? It takes a special type of man to go over the top.

Just like it takes a special type of average gamer to charge through clan alphas.

unfortunately for MWO, WW1 Soldiers had to go over the top, Average Pugs can just choose not to play.

Edited by Wecx, 25 August 2016 - 11:36 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

Why ref clan alphas specifically? IS ones are more precise usually:)
I agree with the intuitive part, you have to take note of your quirks first and build.play accordingly. But many of the quirks do provide quite large crutches, so swings and roundabouts.

[EpyonComet]

I don't mean to be whiny here, but you could at least try explaining all of this to the people in the games. I know 90% of them won't listen, but the 10% who do could benefit from this sort of advice, and it's not like it's necessarily intuitive or explained anywhere in game. I've never learned most of this because no one has explained it to me, and I haven't spent time analyzing the stats of the different factions mechs and weapons in the mechlab. So thanks for all of the information and advice given so far, and consider trying to help spread it to those few people who are willing to learn. I posted a link to this thread in my unit's forums, so hopefully some of the newer players there, like myself, can learn from it and try to get better at the game.