82 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Davegt27, on 06 June 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

Wow must be a mind reader I was up to 2:30 AM central time going back through all the matches on twitch
But I am only going to calculate avg. damage per Mech type

I have everything written down just need to calculate it out

Of course the KDK-3 is the most used Mech and also have the highest damage with 792 dmg in one match

829 damage, inn my case
Could have sworn someone got higher as well.





Not all matches are on the PGI twitch, and even then not all are saved.

[Cy Mitchell]

Davegt27, on 06 June 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

Wow must be a mind reader I was up to 2:30 AM central time going back through all the matches on twitch
But I am only going to calculate avg. damage per Mech type

I have everything written down just need to calculate it out

Of course the KDK-3 is the most used Mech and also have the highest damage with 792 dmg in one match

Add in kills to your statistics. That is what everyone cares about: damage dealt and kills. Show all the Mechs.

It would be nice if we had the stats from all the matches and not just the few that were shoutcast on Twitch.

[Alistair Winter]

Davegt27, on 06 June 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

Wow must be a mind reader I was up to 2:30 AM central time going back through all the matches on twitch
But I am only going to calculate avg. damage per Mech type
I have everything written down just need to calculate it out
Of course the KDK-3 is the most used Mech and also have the highest damage with 792 dmg in one match

Excellent! I would love to see different observations about the tournament and add them to the OP. This thread isn't really about the P2W question, it's more about all the different things we may (or may not) learn from the tournament about where MWO is currently at.

Oderint dum Metuant, on 06 June 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

Few things to consider im not sure where your stats were derived from, but there has been more than one spider used .

I hope they weren't all Spider 5K's, or the MG nerf is inevitable

Oderint dum Metuant, on 06 June 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

Now the important aspects, you have to keep in mind the tournament is being played in a way that we don't play MWO in general. Only playing a single map and a map such as canyon influences heavily the mechs brought and we don't use a weight limit but 2 of each class type, alot of people will just bring the heaviest meta mech of said class.

Yep, I covered the first point. As for the second point... well, that's alright. Still interesting.

Oderint dum Metuant, on 06 June 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

So if focus purely on the 3 ( and i don't think its OP) the UAC 10 build is powerful because of it's rate of fire and DPS potential, nothing can sit staring at it aside from an Atlas, and compared to an Atlas it has very minor structure buffs.
The UAC 10 isn't the problem, because they are pretty poor as a standalone, but 4 of them on the high mounts are incredibly effective.
I can't see an balanced way to curtail this build without doing the dumb thing of nerfing the UAC 10 (which shouldn't happen).
Good OP.

Thanks! I don't want to talk too much about the KDK-3, but I'll just say that I hope they don't nerf the UAC10 just to deal with a single mech. But then again, that's usually the way it works.

Mcgral18, on 06 June 2016 - 03:13 AM, said:

829 damage, inn my case
Could have sworn someone got higher as well.
Not all matches are on the PGI twitch, and even then not all are saved.

If PGI's community manager / tournament manager is actually trying to make the world championships a big deal, I would expect all matches to end up on YouTube at some point. It would a lolworthy fail if they didn't even make all the matches available to watch.

#esport

But then again, even Heavy Gear Assault is an esport now. Not sure if it's the most high skill esport in the world though. That might still be MWO.
https://www.heavygear.com/

Edited by Alistair Winter, 06 June 2016 - 03:32 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

You analyze 17 matches out of ~4000 matches that are supposed to be played and make some sort of conclusions ...
This is stupid.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 06 June 2016 - 03:46 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 June 2016 - 03:39 AM, said:

You analize 17 matches out of ~4000 matches that are supposed to be played and make some sort of conclusions ...
This is stupid.

Analize?

[Afuldan McKronik]

Interesting topic, Alistair. Never seen a spreadsheet applyed so neatly to the results before. Is there anywhere us plebs can see the unofficial games result screenshots? That would certainly give you a lot more data.

[PhoenixFire55]

Alistair Winter, on 06 June 2016 - 03:42 AM, said:

Analize?

Really?
No offense (yet), but just like your analysis of 17 out of 4000 matches you seem to miss the most important part.

[Cy Mitchell]

Alistair Winter, on 05 June 2016 - 11:26 PM, said:

It's been a long time since I've seen any interesting statistic threads in the General Forum. You newbies may not remember this, but back in 2013 and early 2014, there were a lot of threads with interesting statistics, as people were trying to analyze and fix the game. But that's another story.

I figure that the world championship MWO e-sport (shhhh) tournament may be an interesting vantage point from which to analyze MWO. What mechs are most popular, what builds are most popular, what strategies are most popular, how long matches last, how common stomps are, etc.

It should get even more interesting in the second round of qualifying matches, when most of the just-for-fun teams have been eliminated, and we get a better look at the competitive players as a group. But I have taken a look at the first round of qualifying matches and, just to get the ball rolling, I started looking at the number of cash-only mechs. In other words, in an 8v8 tournament where most people are trying to meta as hard as possible, how many people are using cash-only mechs that cannot be purchased with C-bills?

Disclaimer:
Those of you who pay any attention to my posts (seems like a waste of time, but your call) will know that I'll usually say that MWO is no longer a P2W game, but it could arguably have been called that when the Clans were released and held behind a pay-wall while being frighteningly powerful. So this is not a part of some massive "MWO is P2W" bittervet campaign, quite the opposite.

A few caveats:

• The choice of mechs and builds will depend on game mode and map. So one match on one map with one particular game mode may not be very illuminating.
  
• I am not differentiating between MC-only mechs and mechs that are currently behind an early access pay-wall. Obviously, I am looking at cash-only mechs for the sake of the P2W question, and some people feel that early access isn't P2W, while others argue that early access mechs tend to be more powerful and then get nerfed after they're out for c-bills.
  
• There are currently no cash-only medium mechs, which potentially has a big effect. Especially because the latest medium mech release in the game, the Hunchback IIC, is fairly popular, but now out for C-bills.

A few interesting results

• I didn't collect actual numbers on this, but it seems like the Jenner IIC and Cheetah are the most popular light mechs (duh) and the light mech class is the one with least variation. There are 24 Jenner Oxides in the matches that you drew data from. That means that the Oxide made up well over 1/3 of the class.
  
• 61 of 68 assault mechs were Kodiaks. But please tell me more about how useless and fragile it is. When did anyone ever call the Kodiak useless? How many of them survived to the end of the match?

• A lot of cash-only mechs in this tournament If the Kodiak, which will be available for c-bills in a few months is removed then the Black Widow and the Oxide are pretty much the only P2W Mechs.
  
• Kodiak is useless, PGI plz fix Useless?

I would have liked to see all the Mechs selected for those matches shown and then you could have highlighted the ones that you wanted to emphasis to prove your points. It would have given a more complete representation of the competition and the choices being made by the competitors in that sample of the Tournament results.

Interesting data nontheless.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Rampage, on 06 June 2016 - 03:52 AM, said:

I would have liked to see all the Mechs selected for those matches shown and then you could have highlighted the ones that you wanted to emphasis to prove your points. It would have given a more complete representation of the competition and the choices being made by the competitors in that sample of the Tournament results.

Interesting data nontheless.

61/68 Kodiaks is insane. Like, mind boggling insane.

[Rushin Roulette]

What is the point of the table? You are claiming that the Kodiaks are all pay mechs. The only reason why they are pay mechs is because they are temporarily in the phase between pre-order release and Cbill release. Do you really want to revise your complete table after the regular Kodiaks have been released for Cbills and only filter out the Spirit bear Hero mechs as a pay mech?

99% of all Kodiaks run in the tournament will be the Kodiak 3 with the Torso ballistics, not the Hero. This mech is not being played due to having OP quirks, but because the ballistic mounts around the cockpit (which also give it a big disadvantage though).


I would really suggest you revise your table to show only the truly Hero mechs as pay mechs. Then you will see that it will be mostly Oxides as the only Heroes being played with the occasional Black Widow and other assorted random rarities (like the before mentioned Spirit Bear). Even the main spot for the Oxide will be in competition with the Jenner IIC followed by the Arctic Cheetah, as they both have an advantage of Jumpjets for maneuverability in the Canyons and no ammunition dependency for the ACH.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Game is more boring then ever. All you see is Kodiak and Oxide.
Balance in case of diversity is like worst that we seen.

[Alistair Winter]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 June 2016 - 03:49 AM, said:

Really?
No offense (yet), but just like your analysis of 17 out of 4000 matches you seem to miss the most important part.

No offense "yet"? What a silly thing to say.

To be honest, I'm not sure the two of us will get anywhere by discussing this. If you don't think that looking at the first and only ever PGI-run tournament featuring what is arguably the best competitive players in MWO is in any way useful for saying anything about the game, then what kind of arguments could I provide? It's like talking to someone who says that gathering statistics about the world cup doesn't say anything about football as a sport. It's absurd.

Afuldan McKronik, on 06 June 2016 - 03:45 AM, said:

Interesting topic, Alistair. Never seen a spreadsheet applyed so neatly to the results before. Is there anywhere us plebs can see the unofficial games result screenshots? That would certainly give you a lot more data.

Only by going through the Twitch streams like I did, I'm afraid. I could have put more work into it, but to be honest the opening post took my about 30-60 minutes to write up and that's generally a lot more work than I like to put into MWO threads these days.

There's a lot of data to crunch though, so hopefully other people will pick up the torch and keep running with this. I may post some more statistics down the line.

Rampage, on 06 June 2016 - 03:52 AM, said:

I would have liked to see all the Mechs selected for those matches shown and then you could have highlighted the ones that you wanted to emphasis to prove your points. It would have given a more complete representation of the competition and the choices being made by the competitors in that sample of the Tournament results.
Interesting data nontheless.

Aye, I would have liked to see that too. But I have limited time to be spending on this, so I'm kind of hoping other people will find and post stuff they're interested in. Keep the thread going with different findings as the championship goes on.

Rushin Roulette, on 06 June 2016 - 04:05 AM, said:

What is the point of the table? You are claiming that the Kodiaks are all pay mechs. The only reason why they are pay mechs is because they are temporarily in the phase between pre-order release and Cbill release. Do you really want to revise your complete table after the regular Kodiaks have been released for Cbills and only filter out the Spirit bear Hero mechs as a pay mech?
99% of all Kodiaks run in the tournament will be the Kodiak 3 with the Torso ballistics, not the Hero. This mech is not being played due to having OP quirks, but because the ballistic mounts around the cockpit (which also give it a big disadvantage though).

The whole point of PGI's model is that most mechs are only temporarily behind a pay wall. You pay for early access. But a lot of mechs easily slide into first place when they're released and PGI is constantly releasing new mechs that knock the others down the podium. You could argue that most of them are available for C-bills at some point, but you could also argue that at any given moment of time, there's a new kid on the block behind a paywall.

I'm not really interested in having a deep discussion about P2W and the PGI business model though. I'm more interested in what mechs are currently popular, and other general questions about MWO gameplay.

[meteorol]

Alistair Winter, on 06 June 2016 - 04:35 AM, said:

No offense "yet"? What a silly thing to say.

To be honest, I'm not sure the two of us will get anywhere by discussing this. If you don't think that looking at the first and only ever PGI-run tournament featuring what is arguably the best competitive players in MWO is in any way useful for saying anything about the game, then what kind of arguments could I provide?

This is the 2nd tournament by PGI. The first one was the one in which Lord got some tshirts and a camo. The final against SJR was a pretty good game. That aside, your data pool is pretty limited up to this point. I don't see any of those teams in your dataset aside of Lord (they are doing pretty well again recently, played some good matches in MRBC) having a shot at going anywhere in this tournament (don't know like 3/4 of them, honestly). Dunno which of the multiple 228th teams played, though.

That being said, i'm interested how this evolves with more matches played.

[PhoenixFire55]

Alistair Winter, on 06 June 2016 - 04:35 AM, said:

To be honest, I'm not sure the two of us will get anywhere by discussing this. If you don't think that looking at the first and only ever PGI-run tournament featuring what is arguably the best competitive players in MWO is in any way useful for saying anything about the game, then what kind of arguments could I provide? It's like talking to someone who says that gathering statistics about the world cup doesn't say anything about football as a sport. It's absurd.

Look .. I understand you wanted to get this idea of yours out of the system and all, but tell me...
What is even the point of discussing any "stats" you might have gathered after 1% of the tournament has been played?
What is the point of only looking at select few of those played matches that you decided to pick?
Most importantly what is the reason for doing it now and not tomorrow or three months after?

Right now there is a huge whine and hipe about the very same KDK mech or Oxides, etc. Tourney client allows you to purchase any mech, obviously people who don't own these mechs due to pay-wall or early-access-wall will get those on tourney client to try em out, and obviously the not-so-experienced teams will use these mechs simply because people all around scream murder how OP they are, regardless if that is true or not and regardless if those mechs actually suit the selected map.

Consider this simple thing. Apparently you are trying to prove a certain point (for example that KDK is OP). You then deliberatly only pick matches where KDK is used and present it to public saying "hey look, the only assault that competitive teams use is KDK". This is wrong on so many levels. Most importantly is that people read this topic and think "OMG if all teams are using KDK then my team should also use KDK". By presenting this pseudo-analysis of whatever you are impacting the actual data we could have had after the tournament.

There are way too many factors you didn't even consider. Participating teams are so different in terms of skill level that one of the better teams can take trial mechs and still win vs less skilled and less experienced teams. Should we then take it as a sign that trial mechs are best meta mechs if say EmP/HoL/SJR starts using them for tourney?

As I said, what you are doing is stupid, especially at this particular moment of time.

[Rushin Roulette]

Thats why every player in the tournament starts off with enough CBills and MC to buy and and every mech available (although I am still puzzling why all that GXP if everything is already fully mastered and unlocked ). NO pay to win at all there.

Pulling that theortetical situation to the live servers doesnt really work. Even if the Kodiak gets heavily buffed or nerfed on the live server, it will stay unchanged on the tournament server due to the rules that the game is locked on the May 17th patch (plus a few bug fixes to the client which do not affect the performance of the mechs).
The only 100% pay to "win" mechs are still Hero mechs, not even Champion or special edition (such as Invasion or Phoenix) mechs count, as they are just standard mechs with added Cbill/XP earnings.

Pay to win with pre-order mechs only works until the day they are fully released for Cbills. Should the table be revised then? Because from that point onwards, the complete data will be junk.

What is so bad with moving the regular Kodiaks from pay mechs to Cbill mechs? Leave the Spirit bears as the only true pay to "win" Kodiak and lets see how the data is after that.

[Cy Mitchell]

Afuldan McKronik, on 06 June 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

61/68 Kodiaks is insane. Like, mind boggling insane.

Agreed. It seems to be the perfect Mech for the Tournament format. The matches are played on Canyon which has great sight lines and the game mode is Conquest which rewards mobility. The Kodiak has the ability to mount some great loadouts to take advantage of the range and it also has impressive speed for an Assault which allows it to move around the map quickly to cap, protect caps and cut-off the enemy.

If the Tournament matches had been played on Frozen City we might see a significantly different mix of Mechs in not only the Assault class but the other classes as well. Well, except for the Light class.

[Templar Dane]

Afuldan McKronik, on 06 June 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

61/68 Kodiaks is insane. Like, mind boggling insane.

Lot of warhammers and oxides as well.

[Alistair Winter]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 June 2016 - 04:57 AM, said:

Look .. I understand you wanted to get this idea of yours out of the system and all, but tell me...
What is even the point of discussing any "stats" you might have gathered after 1% of the tournament has been played?

To get the ball rolling. What's the point of discussing the World cup after a single match has been played? It's pointless, just like every other thread on this forum. If you don't feel like participating in the discussion yet... click this link to get back to the General forum.

PhoenixFire55, on 06 June 2016 - 04:57 AM, said:

Consider this simple thing. Apparently you are trying to prove a certain point (for example that KDK is OP). You then deliberatly only pick matches where KDK is used and present it to public saying "hey look, the only assault that competitive teams use is KDK". This is wrong on so many levels.

I agree. Particularly, it's wrong on the level that what you're saying is not factually accurate. Indeed, you just invented some kind of motive because it suits your criticism, which is both intellectually dishonest and just a very dull thing to do.

I have posted the results that are available from the Twitch streams that are available online by following the links on the frontpage. And then you go and assume some nefarious agenda. Just drop it and check out some other threads, dude.

PhoenixFire55, on 06 June 2016 - 04:57 AM, said:

There are way too many factors you didn't even consider. Participating teams are so different in terms of skill level that one of the better teams can take trial mechs and still win vs less skilled and less experienced teams. Should we then take it as a sign that trial mechs are best meta mechs if say EmP/HoL/SJR starts using them for tourney?

This is a particularly bad strawman argument. If you don't understand that this argument is unbelievably irrelevant, then I don't know what to tell you. Again, let's drop it. There's nothing positive to be gained from you and I having this conversation. Suffice it to say, you think what I am doing is stupid and, likewise, I am not terribly impressed with your rhetoric nor your logic. Good day.

[Flitzomat]

Alistair Winter, on 05 June 2016 - 11:26 PM, said:

But I have taken a look at the first round of qualifying matches and, just to get the ball rolling, I started looking at the number of cash-only mechs.

I hope that this was just your start as this is by far the least interesting number you can extract from the data. Also it brings all the unwanted guests to the party who don´t get the point and keep you from analysing/updating the data.

I think this is interesting and a very nice distraction from the usual posts as it actually adds some value to the interested community.

[PhoenixFire55]

Alistair Winter, on 06 June 2016 - 05:35 AM, said:

To get the ball rolling. What's the point of discussing the World cup after a single match has been played? It's pointless, just like every other thread on this forum. If you don't feel like participating in the discussion yet... click this link to get back to the General forum.

...

Your usual personal attacks aside, discussing the entire world cup after a single macth and discussing that particular match after it's been played are two different things. If you can't understand the difference or if you pretend you can't understand the difference then this entire "discussion" is all about your agenda, and has nothing to do with MWO or MWOWC.

You've already made this agenda of yours quite obvious, so don't try to pretend you care about any kind of actual stats or analysis.

In case you aren't aware "discussions" like that are placed here and here.