41 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Afuldan McKronik, on 10 June 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

Like I said above, I think only the 12 SPL Stormcrow would be affected by this. As you would max tonnage before crits, allowing LA and Hand Actuators.

It's not only about having enough total crit space though, it's also about being able to put heatsinks into the engine so that you can avoid putting them in less favorable locations, e.g if you wanted to drop some armor on an arm (or maybe even both arms) and use it as a shield but you only had enough crit space in the arm(s) for more heatsinks because the engine is locked; stuff like that is what I'm thinking about more.

Again, not a huge issue but it still matters.

FrontGuard, on 10 June 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

sorry all if i just created confusion...
I was talking about how sometimes the heat sinks seem to disappear from the engine on clan mechs.

Do you mean during a match? Because if a side torso gets blown off then the engine loses 20% of its internal heatsinks (in addition to losing any and all equipment in the torso & arm) because of the engine damage penalty.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Pjwned, on 10 June 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

It's not only about having enough total crit space though, it's also about being able to put heatsinks into the engine so that you can avoid putting them in less favorable locations, e.g if you wanted to drop some armor on an arm (or maybe even both arms) and use it as a shield but you only had enough crit space in the arm(s) for more heatsinks because the engine is locked; stuff like that is what I'm thinking about more.

Again, not a huge issue but it still matters.

True, but the only two mechs this affects are SCR and IFR I believe. IFR needs both sides for hardpoints and SCR gets legs targetted anyways.

[Bishop Steiner]

Feral Goose, on 10 June 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I've listed all of the other clan mechs with "locked" engines, and they all have extra, engine mounted, external DHS slots, they should have. Only with these two, are neither the heat sinks or the slots absolutely missing.
I can get on board with the concept that, like choosing to have an IS 300XL without placing 2 DHS in it's slots, these two mechs have locked engines that didn't have the slots (that would still be there) filled, and are now permanently installed.

But what is the rhyme and reason why these two mechs, happen to have the only drunk engineers, that happen to forget to place the DHS in the slots, when the engine was on the assembly line?

only the stock base DHS are locked in the chassis or engine. If a Mech, for instance has a 350 engine, and only 12 Stock "locked" DHS, then any model that mounts more are external of the engine (despite the engine being capable of holding 14 total). The rational being that one doesn't just pop the hood on a fusion reactor and slip heatsinks in and out.

Old TT rule. *shrugs* And probably a bit of a coding pain in the butt for PGI to try to compensate, for such little gain.

[CaptainScumBa11s]

Metus regem, on 10 June 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

Omni's do, but Battle mechs don;t...

Because factory refits definitely weren't a thing. It's. It like we have endless access to them either since we aren't on the field. Battlemechs ARE like battle mechs in the lore we just infinite access to money, time and all the tools to swap anything out. Omnis had versatility in the field but in the long run a battle mech with time and parts could mount almost anything.

[jaxjace]

whats funny is that both of those mechs would be a lot better with the hardwired extra sinks.

[Jackal Noble]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

only the stock base DHS are locked in the chassis or engine. If a Mech, for instance has a 350 engine, and only 12 Stock "locked" DHS, then any model that mounts more are external of the engine (despite the engine being capable of holding 14 total). The rational being that one doesn't just pop the hood on a fusion reactor and slip heatsinks in and out.

Old TT rule. *shrugs* And probably a bit of a coding pain in the butt for PGI to try to compensate, for such little gain.

I'm from the school of thought that it's the little things that add up to a more satisfactory end user experience.

[Afuldan McKronik]

jaxjace, on 10 June 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

whats funny is that both of those mechs would be a lot better with the hardwired extra sinks.

4 crit slots, 2 tons less podspace. How big of a change could that make to the loadouts?

[wanderer]

Quote

He is talking about Clan mechs. They don't have SHS let alone the ability to switch them.

They do exist, but are incredibly rare on Battlemechs for the Clans- and of course, Clantech vehicles use SHS.

[Bishop Steiner]

jaxjace, on 10 June 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

whats funny is that both of those mechs would be a lot better with the hardwired extra sinks.

a "lot".... debatable. SCR was already alpha predator before the last set of Quirks n Nerfs OP'd some IS mechs, and the Ice Ferret doesn't exactly pack a heavy punch to begin with and would be a lot less useful for anything beside light laser vomit.

Neither is really dying form lack of critical space.

[Tarl Cabot]

FrontGuard, on 10 June 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

sorry all if i just created confusion...
I was talking about how sometimes the heat sinks seem to disappear from the engine on clan mechs.

No need to apologize. Since the engines and several other components are locked in place and many omnis do tend to have plenty of empty slots, it was likely never a real deal breaker when they came out.

On the other hand, I personally would like the slots available since it would mean I would not have to worry as much about crit DHS or loss DHS w/side torso/arms destroyed

If we were playing completely by Clan lore we would only have the ability to switch out omnipods w/their default components, and armor would be locked in place (armor was locked in prior Clan release)

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 10 June 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarl Cabot, on 10 June 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

No need to apologize. Since the engines and several other components are locked in place and many omnis do tend to have plenty of empty slots, it was likely never a real deal breaker when they came out.

On the other hand, I personally would like the slots available since it would mean I would not have to worry as much about crit DHS or loss DHS w/side torso/arms.

If we were playing completely by lore we would only have the ability to switch out omnipods w/their default components and armor would be locked in place, which the armor was locked in prior Clan release.

well, if we were playing totally by lore, we'd have to massively re-address IS Battlemechs cusotomization, and until one unlocked star captain or higher (or some similar ristar achievement) you would only be able to swap for the stock pods on omnis, since rank and file didn't get to customize their loadouts. They took whichever "stock" pod variant they either preferred or were assigned by their commander.

Orion IICs would NEVER be modified and Clan Battlemechs would require an even higher level of achievement unlocked to allow customization, since they were designed and assigned to the second tier warriors of the Clan.

Mind you....I'd find it all highly immersive and enjoyable, but the QP and Comp Play crowds, probably notably less so.

[Metus regem]

CaptainScumBa11s, on 10 June 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

Because factory refits definitely weren't a thing. It's. It like we have endless access to them either since we aren't on the field. Battlemechs ARE like battle mechs in the lore we just infinite access to money, time and all the tools to swap anything out. Omnis had versatility in the field but in the long run a battle mech with time and parts could mount almost anything.

Yes factory refits were a thing, but expensive and time consuming to do. It's why they are so many variants of Battle Mechs, often the difference is as simple as engine size, internal structure or armour.... Only the wealthiest 1% of the Inner Sphere had customized Battle Mechs outside of Solaris VII.

[CaptainScumBa11s]

Metus regem, on 10 June 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Yes factory refits were a thing, but expensive and time consuming to do. It's why they are so many variants of Battle Mechs, often the difference is as simple as engine size, internal structure or armour.... Only the wealthiest 1% of the Inner Sphere had customized Battle Mechs outside of Solaris VII.

I'm not talking about customs I'm talking about things like the rifle man variant that was a field refit with endo steel. Or the all the dubs upgrades from field or factory refits. plenty of techs got antsy and made something amazing without time or money down in the mud. And being able to stray off the path of stock is fun and interactive and not against lore. Plenty of Mecha and tanks have crazy changes that become popular so they are listed and non regulation changes are a real thing

Edited by CaptainScumBa11s, 10 June 2016 - 10:29 AM.

[WarHippy]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 June 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

Clan mechs do have SHS, I believe the Clint IIC has them stock, but they are not common, and you won't find them on an Omnimech iirc.

Okay, let me rephrase by saying they don't have them in this game.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

WarHippy, on 10 June 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

Okay, let me rephrase by saying they don't have them in this game.

Battlemechs (IICs and Kodiaks) have the option currently, just the Omnis don't have them.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 June 2016 - 11:29 AM.

[Metus regem]

CaptainScumBa11s, on 10 June 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

I'm not talking about customs I'm talking about things like the rifle man variant that was a field refit with endo steel. Or the all the dubs upgrades from field or factory refits. plenty of techs got antsy and made something amazing without time or money down in the mud. And being able to stray off the path of stock is fun and interactive and not against lore. Plenty of Mecha and tanks have crazy changes that become popular so they are listed and non regulation changes are a real thing

Endo Steel was never a field refit, factory level only, and costs a lot of time and c-bills as you are crafting a whole new skeleton for that one mech. Field level refits are things like changing a small laser to a medium laser. Things like putting an AC/20 where an MG went is a class C refit and takes a drop-ship's hanger bay to do the work in.

[WarHippy]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 June 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

Battlemechs (IICs and Kodiaks) have the option currently, just the Omnis don't have them.

Are you sure? I guess I never had a reason to look. Either way I don't know why you would use them even if you could for those mechs.

[1453 R]

BECAUSE LORE.

The Stormcrow and Ice Ferret, when designed in the 80s by the folks who were putting the initial Clan wave together, decided that those two 'Mechs would be better served by having free tonnage instead of locked DHS. Once that decision was made it could not be unmade; Omni construction rules did not allow any modification whatsoever of the base chassis, doing so locked the machine and turned it into a BattleMech, and incurred all kinds of penalties. Because reasons.

It doesn't have to make perfect sense, because this is A BattleTech Game™, and thus if it was done in BattleTech the TT folks want it done in MWO. The TRO readouts for the Crow and the Ferret stipulate unused engine heat sink slots, so unused heat sink slots they get.

It's an arbitrary decision we inherited from thirty years ago, same as everything else that makes no sense. That is, however, what makes it a BattleTech Game™.

[CaptainScumBa11s]

Metus regem, on 10 June 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

Endo Steel was never a field refit, factory level only, and costs a lot of time and c-bills as you are crafting a whole new skeleton for that one mech. Field level refits are things like changing a small laser to a medium laser. Things like putting an AC/20 where an MG went is a class C refit and takes a drop-ship's hanger bay to do the work in.

So what your saying is for cbills I can change whatever I want on my mechs kinda exactly how they are now? Hmmm odd seems an awful lot like lore and not magic like people seem to say it is. I have the money for as many recite as needed the regiment of mechs in my hanger attests to that. Omnis are fine I'm totally ok with the idea is f being able to buy omnis as battle mechs tho

[Durant Carlyle]

Feral Goose, on 10 June 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

Of the Clan mechs that come with pre-installed engines, that can not be changed out, I have a question why two of them do not come with the engine mounted, external Dbl. Heat Sinks(DHS), allotted to the engine, due to it's size.
Any engine, above the size 250, gains an engine mounted heat sink (or at least the slot for one) for every 25 sizes above. This holds true, across the board. I've gone through all of the clan mechs, that come with permanent engines, and found:

Ice Ferret has a 360XL, has two(2), engine mounted, DHS, but should have 4
Storm Crow has a 330XL, has zero(0), engine mounted, DHS, but should have 3


What gives? There aren't any negative quirks listed about this, dealing with these mechs.


The other Clan mechs are fine:
Ebon Jaguar 325XL and DOES have 3 external, engine mounted, DHS
Hellbringer 325XL and DOES have 3 external, engine mounted, DHS
Summoner 350XL and DOES have 4 external, engine mounted, DHS
Timber Wolf 375XL and DOES have 5 external, engine mounted, DHS
Dire Wolf 300XL and DOES have 2 external, engine mounted, DHS
Gargoyle 400XL and DOES have 8 external, engine mounted, DHS
War Hawk 340XL and DOES have 3 external, engine mounted, DHS
Adder comes with 8 engine DHS, like it should, with a 210XL
Artic Cheetah comes with 9 engine DHS, like it should, with a 240XL
Kit Fox comes with 7 engine DHS, like it should, with a 180XL
Mist Lynx comes with 7 engine DHS, like it should, with a 175XL

Let me clear this up...

The engines above 250 rating have available places for extra heat sinks, one heat sink place for every 25 engine rating above 250. THEY DO NOT COME AUTOMATICALLY WITH THEM.

This is exactly as the tabletop rules state, for both I.S. and Clan engines.

Example:
A 275 engine has 10 heat sinks built in, plus a place for an extra heat sink. That extra heat sink is optional, not automatic.
A 400 engine has 10 heat sinks built in, plus six places for extra heat sinks. Those extra heat sinks are optional, not automatic.

Those slots are there for manufacturers to place extra heat sinks that don't take up extra critical slots (they do still take up weight though). Some designs take advantage of them, and some do not. Clan designs tend to be more likely to take advantage, but it's not across the board.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 10 June 2016 - 01:16 PM.