75 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

So - lets talk:

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 19 July 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

It would figure that you can't wrap your head around Americans... seeing as how you are a German in the most fun regulated nation in the world, with a government built completely on fear of what you did in the past.

RedDragon, on 19 July 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Try again. Actually we have a lot more fun than you guys. Here you can drink with 16 or 18 (also stuff like Absinthe), we can see sex and nudes on TV and we even can buy Kinder Eggs. What IS regulated here is stuff like not every moron can buy guns (that's why we it's very rare to get shot around here, by the way) and it is forbidden to associate with {Godwin's Law} ideologism (a thing we learned from our past - that's what mistakes are for). Which, in my book, is a pretty good thing.
Sure, we have a lot of idiotic things in our country, who hasn't? If you'd call us out for our weak politicians who brown-nose guys like RecepErdogan just to not lose Turkey as a politcal ally, I'd gladly applaud you.
But plugging your ears with your fingers and going "Lalala I can't hear you because you are not an American" is just dumb. Recognizing that free gun laws is a bad thing has nothing to do with nationality, it's a matter of common sense.

You yourself say that you know at least 4 people who were involved or harmed in shooting accidents. Over here you'd be hard pressed to find a single guy under the thousands on the street who knows someone who actually ever got into contact with the wrong side of a firearm or even a gun at all. Over here the common guy does not have to live in fear of ever being shot. Most likely most Germans will never see a gun for real and will never know anyone who was harmed by one.
I just can't understand how this can be seen as a bad thing.
What my American friends tell me, over there it is rather uncommon to not know at least one guy who hasn't been involved in an accident with guns or who on their part know someone who was. And I think it is pretty sad to just accept this as the price for the "freedom" to collect as many guns as you like.
And this is where we are on topic again: Sure it is a tragedy that another cop was shot. But sadly it is not an unforeseeable tragedy. It is a probable tragedy that will repeat itself without any doubt. It's like letting your kids play with hand grenades and then bemourning the loss when one of them explodes. Surely it's tragic, but everyone has seen it coming and it won't stop if you keep letting them play with hand grenades.

I Zeratul I, on 19 July 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

I don't have anything against cops. There have been a few times when cops could have arrested me and my friends for things we did and they let us go. Based on my experiences I would say some cops are cool.

But recently it seems like things have changed for the worse. The attitude cops have and the way they carry themselves have changed. Maybe its because their training standards have decreased? I don't know what it is but something has changed. Police seem to treat people a lot worse than they used to & it is generating resentment against them.

Its also interesting how we both agree cops could be better trained and there's "no funding" for that. But there is funding for gun control? Strange how that works.



Germany doesn't have poverty the way the united states does.

Some cities in the united states have higher death tolls than warzones in the middle east. Hence why some refer to chicago as chIraq.

Getting rid of guns won't change that. It won't change the fact that a lot of people are living in poverty with no way to provide for themselves and their families other than crime.

The only thing getting rid of guns does is leave people at the mercy of their government. When h1tler was in power (Godwin's law ftw) many germans wished they owned guns so that they could rise up in rebellion, but all were unarmed. That's one lesson germans don't seem to have learned.

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 19 July 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

Gun control only requires signing pieces of paper that make it illegal for these weapons to be owned or such... i.e. they make legislation and then leave it all up to our underfunded cops.

Also honestly I do not think cops treat people any worse. I think we are only now hearing about a large amount of this because of this thing called the internet, and wide spread media (things that didn't have much attention or use 20 or 30 years ago). Hell until the mid 2000's the internet was still not a really huge thing for media until stuff like Youtube and such became crazy popular.

Until the internet became really popular we never heard barely anything about police brutality and I think that it is because people are only just now able to start recording it and such.

Also of the 30+ police I have met, I am yet to find one that was anything less than friendly to me... AND I LIVE IN DETROIT.

But I do agree they need better training. I also say that the american people need to stop viewing our police as the oppressors, and enemies and we also need to get them psychological help and training (more than 50% of Police in the USA have PTSD which I bet it a cause for some of this).

I think police brutality and the way we see police is a problem from all sides, and the fault is not just the police IMO.

I agree here 100%

But then again this is RedDragon... his only opinion is that Germany regulations on guns are completely right.

So basically Americans are stupid for not giving up their guns, police dying in America is whatever, and you are proud of the fact that if your country was invaded your entire nation could be obliterated from Earth and never put up a fight, and that your government could completely oppress you at any second, but all of this is okay because you can drink beer at a younger age. That is what I got from that.

Also... I am not plugging my ears. I am ignoring you because you know NOTHING about living in America besides what you read online. Come live in Detroit for half your life, then you can say something. Don't be telling me I shouldn't be carrying a pistol when you haven't had a day to fear like I have.

The problem you have here dude is that you don't seem to get it through your skull that GANGS AND BAD GUYS WILL HAVE GUNS EVEN IF THEY ARE ILLEGAL!!!!!! Taking away guns just makes it easier for them to kill us. Again see the fact that I have lost a cousin who was a cop, MY BEST FRIEND who died by a gang member from organized crime, etc. Bad guys ALWAYS HAVE WEAPONS... ALWAYS.

Come live in Chicago, Detroit, Flint, Camden, Ferguson etc for a couple years. Your close minded gun ideologies will probably change when you get a bullet through your car.
Banning guns doesn't stop bad people from having them. It stops good people from defending themselves (as proven in Sandy Hook, where if one of those teachers had had a gun that entire shooting would have been avoided). Gun regulations hurt just as much as the fix...

When you live here in America, then you can have a say. But until you step out from behind your rose colored stain-glass windows and come here, you will have no idea what it is like here. I am sick and tired of people like you, acting as though you know that these things will work, when your country has nothing in common with mine. You are ignorant of what it is like to live in a place like Detroit or Chicago and are ignorant of what Gangs and organized crime can do because your nation doesn't have these problems. Talking with a "few" friends from America will NEVER give you a true impression of what it is like to live here.

Now good bye. This thread is nothing but a bait thread IMO, and these topics are again forbidden. I am also tired of foreigners thinking they know what it is like to be American and how this country should be run.

The only thing getting rid of guns does is leave people at the mercy of their government. When h1tler was in power (Godwin's law ftw) many germans wished they owned guns so that they could rise up in rebellion, but all were unarmed. That's one lesson germans don't seem to have learned.
That is a nice story, but It don't hold water. I don't think that only a handful of people in Germany of the 30s wanted to get rid of him.
But do you think that a single person is so powerful that he can come frome nowhere and become the sole leader of one of the biggest pre atombomb superpowers? No he had people that did support him - like today people that only had $ or RM in ther eyes when they thought about the possibilities.
But the normal person going on daily routine - loved (because he saved his family of poverty) or ignored him. As an interesting side note - my Oncle was shot down on the 3rd September 39 - over German teritory near the border to France. Interesting concidence when you remember that the war in poland started because Poland rejected a railway route to connect this part of germany (ost prussia. with the other parts (pommern) - you can compare it with the invasion of Panama when you want a more actual comparison. Funny side fact - up to 1946 it was a country supremecy to wage war. This was branded an act against humanity after founding the UN.
Anyhow history is history - but as with the first world war - you need usually two or more parties to have a war on such a big scope. But while it is common knowledge that Germany was sole responsible for WWI it is not political correct to say the same about WWII.


Come live in Chicago, Detroit, Flint, Camden, Ferguson etc for a couple years. Your close minded gun ideologies will probably change when you get a bullet through your car.
Banning guns doesn't stop bad people from having them. It stops good people from defending themselves (as proven in Sandy Hook, where if one of those teachers had had a gun that entire shooting would have been avoided). Gun regulations hurt just as much as the fix

Again this doesn't happen here on a regularly basis. And you are absolutely right - bad guys have guns (I did know some)
Heck I even did know some people that would have sold me a Makarov 9mm with 48 shots for €300 back in 2002 (Well the main reason I declined: I was a bad shot with pistols - i rather stayed with my knifes)
There were a lot of guns and still are after the sovjets leaved east germany, heck there was even a working T72 in a forest near my home town.

I admit if i would have the option I would have a KRISS Vector for my wife and a HK 417 for myself - but this would only be helpful when the full country is 100% civil war, anarchy or zombicalpyse mode. Sound stupid right?

I don't think it would help much in protecting you or your family against robbery or burglary. It may just increase the threat of getting killed in both events.
This is the next thing when somebody want to kill you not weapon will save you.

The next thing about guns is - we are apes. When in danger we tend to react like the chimps we are. Fight or Flight - and ususally try to make as much noise and be as intimidating as possible to fend of this thread.
In the past shouting and swinging swords or pitchforks was the way - today its the gun. It is load it is deadly and it gives the owner the false feeling of security.
There is an interesting book - On Killing - (http://www.military-sf.com/) - about this topic.

---

OK not to get to the main point.

First thing is everything people tell you are lies. Each and every news today are created to deliver a messge. When you find facts against gun regulations or facts for gun regulations you can be sure that both findings are doctored.
When you read news in the Internet or see them in TV - they are doctored

Take for example the total destruction of the political stability of north Africa and the middle east.
Were those dictatorships? Maybe? But do you really think that those people think they are free now? And the thing you find hard to believe and you will call for tin foils for my head. Think-tanks founded by nations (like US; Britain, Germany - NATO) did know perfectly what would happen when they destabilized those countries and support rebels.
They did it to get gain - may it be more weapons sold or maybe to please some Arabic princess to get cheaper oil. Do I have proof? Well no - but it is hard to believe that people didn't foforesee what was happening.

Do you think Syria is a right cause? A funny thing I started to read some SicFi Novel (The Red series) lately and there was mentioned poison gas - form Syria. This is interesting because it cement the opinion of people.

And of course NATO or UN aside at the higher politics there are no friends. A think tank in US might have spit out the numbers that a war in Europe would be great for your economy.

You mentioned poverty - when there is no competition in Europe most people in your country might have enough work. Well the Ukraine didn't worked well enough - but at least European country stopped to deal with Russia - a lot of small companys here in Saxony have serious problems because of this embargo. But the interesting not so obvious know fact is that US companys still deal with Russia.
Of course it is not know to the public - and I think it is good. Because the Patriotic[color=#000000][/color]Europeans[color=#000000][/color]Against[color=#000000][/color]theIslamization[color=#000000][/color]of[color=#000000][/color]the[color=#000000][/color]Occident Movement are talking enough ******** against US and hailing Russia as the only true friend. Althoug I also hate the political correctness ******** against Russia, either.

But as said there are no friends and there are only lies.

[Kara Ben Nemsi]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 19 July 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

...and you are proud of the fact that if your country was invaded your entire nation could be obliterated from Earth and never put up a fight... That is what I got from that.

That's ridiculous.

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 19 July 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

Come live in Detroit for half your life, then you can say something. Don't be telling me I shouldn't be carrying a pistol when you haven't had a day to fear like I have.

Now you got it... We don't have to fear BECAUSE OF GUN CONTROL.

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 19 July 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

...what Gangs and organized crime can do because your nation doesn't have these problems.

Again you got it... We don't have these problems BECAUSE OF GUN CONTROL.

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 19 July 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

...Come live in Detroit for half your life, then you can say something...
...Come live in Chicago, Detroit, Flint, Camden, Ferguson etc for a couple years. Your close minded gun ideologies will probably change when you get a bullet through your car...

I lived here for more than a decade. That's the reason why I'm in favor of gun control.

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 19 July 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

When you live here in America, then you can have a say. But until you step out from behind your rose colored stain-glass windows and come here, you will have no idea what it is like here. I am sick and tired of people like you, acting as though you know that these things will work, when your country has nothing in common with mine.

I lived in East Germany (when it was a communist dictatorship), France (during the 90s), and Denmark. My parents also lived in Poland, France (during the 60s), and China. And when I say living I don't mean spending holidays. How about you, have you ever left Unicornland? Who is living behind a rose colored stained-glass window?

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 19 July 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

Banning guns doesn't stop bad people from having them. It stops good people from defending themselves... Gun regulations hurt just as much as the fix...

So, Americans are bad people?



Go on... play with your unicorns...

Edited by Nomex 09, 20 July 2016 - 02:44 AM.

[RedDragon]

I Zeratul I, on 19 July 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

Germany doesn't have poverty the way the united states does.

Some cities in the united states have higher death tolls than warzones in the middle east. Hence why some refer to chicago as chIraq.

Getting rid of guns won't change that. It won't change the fact that a lot of people are living in poverty with no way to provide for themselves and their families other than crime.

The only thing getting rid of guns does is leave people at the mercy of their government. When h1tler was in power (Godwin's law ftw) many germans wished they owned guns so that they could rise up in rebellion, but all were unarmed. That's one lesson germans don't seem to have learned.

You are right in that Germany doesn't have that much poverty. I concede that on this basis it is hard to compare both states. But: We also have some areas were poverty and crime is at a high rate, mostly because of failed integration in areas where many immigrants are gathered. Formation of subcultures and low education tend to breed bad neighbourhoods, and there are districts were even cops don't dare to go. But those are very confined areas and even there it is very uncommon to get shot because it is so difficult to acquire and carry a gun over here. If you are seen in public with a gun, people will call the police. If you happen to get stopped by the police and you carry a gun, they will take it away. If there is a crime with a gun involved, police will do everything they can to hunt you down. We also have lots of crime here, I have no reliable numbers on this, but I'd say that 99% of crimes here are commited without a gun, after what I'm reading on the news.

Btw: Actually it was a lot easier to get guns in Germany before 1945. In fact during the Weimar Republic they had ideas like every car owner should also be armed because they feared highway robberies. And during the late 30's, the National Socialists were eager to arm large parts of the population, they called it "Wehrhaftmachung des Deutschen Volkes" (making the people able to defend themselves). There were LOTS of guns in the country at this point. Only enemies of the state were disarmed (jews, communists etc.).

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 19 July 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

But then again this is RedDragon... his only opinion is that Germany regulations on guns are completely right.

So basically Americans are stupid for not giving up their guns, police dying in America is whatever, and you are proud of the fact that if your country was invaded your entire nation could be obliterated from Earth and never put up a fight, and that your government could completely oppress you at any second, but all of this is okay because you can drink beer at a younger age. That is what I got from that.

Also... I am not plugging my ears. I am ignoring you because you know NOTHING about living in America besides what you read online. Come live in Detroit for half your life, then you can say something. Don't be telling me I shouldn't be carrying a pistol when you haven't had a day to fear like I have.

The problem you have here dude is that you don't seem to get it through your skull that GANGS AND BAD GUYS WILL HAVE GUNS EVEN IF THEY ARE ILLEGAL!!!!!! Taking away guns just makes it easier for them to kill us. Again see the fact that I have lost a cousin who was a cop, MY BEST FRIEND who died by a gang member from organized crime, etc. Bad guys ALWAYS HAVE WEAPONS... ALWAYS.

Come live in Chicago, Detroit, Flint, Camden, Ferguson etc for a couple years. Your close minded gun ideologies will probably change when you get a bullet through your car.
Banning guns doesn't stop bad people from having them. It stops good people from defending themselves (as proven in Sandy Hook, where if one of those teachers had had a gun that entire shooting would have been avoided). Gun regulations hurt just as much as the fix...

When you live here in America, then you can have a say. But until you step out from behind your rose colored stain-glass windows and come here, you will have no idea what it is like here. I am sick and tired of people like you, acting as though you know that these things will work, when your country has nothing in common with mine. You are ignorant of what it is like to live in a place like Detroit or Chicago and are ignorant of what Gangs and organized crime can do because your nation doesn't have these problems. Talking with a "few" friends from America will NEVER give you a true impression of what it is like to live here.

Yes, i do not live in the US, and I would be very happy if it stayed that way if every American was like you. But fortunately I know a lot of Americans who are actually nice guys with an open mind who don't match the stereotype of the typical American as seen by the rest of the world.

You say you fear to go outside because criminals are armed. That's understandable. What is not understandable is how you think arming everyone else will make this situation any better. Cops are armed by default and still they get shot. How can you think that the answer to guns should be more guns? Are you really that blind that you think something good can come out of this? If you'd put away your "I am right because I live here" attitude for a moment and looked at it in a rational way, you could refrain from your hyperboles and tackle the problem on a more rational basis. Naturally it won't be a solution to just throw away your guns as you seem to think we are proposing. The problem can only be solved if the guns are taken from the criminals, and this, naturally, can't happen overnight. It must be made more difficult for criminals to acquire guns, and the guns have to be taken out of circulation one by one. it will be small steps, but it can only happen if you start somewhere. And as long as everyone and their mother can get a gun, it's no problem for criminals, too.

And no, criminals will NOT always have guns, even when they are illegal. Again, over here a very small percentage of crimes is commited with guns. A few weeks ago a guy took some hostages in a cinema. Luckily he couldn't acquire a real gun and used a fake one, so no one was harmed. Just this week an Afghan boy entered a train and attacked people with an axe to "kill infidels" as he stated. He managed to injure some people, but now imagine if he'd had a gun.
Organized criminals may acquire guns, but even for them it is difficult and they have to be very careful. But the common criminal won't have a gun 99,9% of the time, and especially those people who just tilt one day and decide they have to go out with a bang can't just get an assault rifle and take dozend of people with them.

So yes, I DO think our gun regulations are great, but I don't think they are perfect. IMO they should be even more strict.
And no, I don't think this country is perfect. Our school system sucks, for example, and I know that some Scandinavian countries fare a lot better when it comes to this, so I think Germany should learn from them. I have no problem to admit when we as a nation are wrong. But when it comes to gun control, this is not a thing of national pride, it is a thing of common sense. That's why basically every other country in the world shakes its head at the problems you guys have with your guns.
I am very glad to live in a country were I will never have to fear being shot on the streets, and I would be glad if Americans could experience this too some time in the future. But as long as people are as thick-headed as you, I fear it will take a very long time and many more deaths before you finally open your eyes.

Edit: Did a bit of research: Actually only 0.2% of convicted German criminals statistically use a gun. Of those 40% are illegal guns.

Edited by RedDragon, 20 July 2016 - 01:34 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Nomex 09, on 20 July 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

That's ridiculous.

thats just plain "uninformed" just to not use an insult with I. If a country would be able to fully invade yours AND wnats to entirely obliterate the population, they are surely not going to do that by people walking around carrying guns tyrign to shood MILLIONS of people. Loot what A.H did that needed HUGE infrastructure to kill millions. No oen would do that again today. In the age of mass destruction with wepaons of biological and chemical nature and even nuclea weapons of short radiation durations protecting yourself in such a scenario with a gun would be entirely pointless.

marock really lives in an onw unicorn world far away from reality.

[SuomiWarder]

Hmm, hot exchange. What I think many people miss about us Americans and our guns is that we are a relatively new nation who's national character is founded on the idea that a bunch of freedom loving hicks with guns overthrew the world's toughest superpower at the time. The Brits tried to take away weapons from citizens they felt were likely to rebel several times, so we ended up writing into our founding constitution that there is a right to bear arms that the government cannot take away.

Most of the US is a long time removed from requiring guns for self defense from natural critters. (I grew up on a horse ranch with plenty of guns, but there wasn't anything dangerous around. Mostly we shot at gophers in the belief that they dig holes that horses and cows might step in an break a leg. Not sure if that has ever really happened though). However the thought that government (meaning the Federal Government) should never be fully trusted remains string in at least 40 to 55 percent of our population. For many Americans, even ones that love the police, the thought of being forced to rely on the government for personal safety is disliked. The line of logic that runs - "we know the federal government is about to start ignoring our rights and become despotic is when they take our guns so we can't resist" is a real thing out here. Not everywhere of course, a lot of liberal folks (mostly city ones) believe that guns cause more harm than potential good and who cares if the Constitution specifically names them as a right. Those of us that disagree feel that once you start ignoring things in the Bill of Rights you don't agree with, then where do you stop? Freedom of religion? Freedom of the Press ?

I do not fear a zombie apocalypse. I do live in California near the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountain range. About 40 miles from a major city with one freeway providing access. A freeway with lots of overpasses. All of this in "earthquake country". When the big one finally rips my state a new one (which many geologists say is now overdue) my family and me could easily be on our own without any form of government help for days or even weeks. First response that can move will go to the city (which is our state capital of Sacramento). The eight cops and ten fire fighters we have are going to be overwhelmed - if they are not casualties themselves. Do I want my guns on hand in case some of my "neighbors" decide to help themselves to my stuff and harm my family? Why yes, yes I do.

Finally, on the stats side....gun violence is highest in the major cities where gun control is tightest. This is also where large pockets of poverty and drug selling goes on. Take out those three cities and the overall US gun violence drops down to close to the other major G8 countries. So most of our killings are confined to around five regions. There are cultural and economic factors in play I don't even pretend to understand or be able to explain.

But if my country will not trust me with simple firearms that my Constitution grants me as a named right, then why should I trust my country?

[Karl Streiger]

Thanks for this last post - while reading about your "farm" life - I thought that the issue may the big populated areas and you pointed it out either.
And I can 100% understand protecting the own family at all costs in times of great danger.

Food for though what if ammunition would be regulated? Only licenced sellers and buyers?
What about a kind of driving licence for guns?

[Karl Streiger]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 20 July 2016 - 09:02 PM, said:

Evil people will always be evil and always have weapons and will always kill. end of story. No pieces of paper will stop them from illegally getting guns, as shootings in Germany, France etc have proven. If gun regulations worked shootings wouldn't happen at all.

If it would be that simple.

We (I)'m talking about "evil" - lets say planing. When I would plan to kill somebody no regulation will stop me for sure. Although to get a arm would be much tougher - maybe I run blind eyed into an undercover police officer who is selling me a gun. I bet the numbers of those "murders" is the same in every country maybe US has even less "real murders"

The problem are the unintentional killings. Look when you find your self on the streat and a "gang" is stalking you or mocking you. And you have a gun - and maybe you think that those gang members have guns either - how fast is this situation going down river?
While with Gun regulation - I don't have a gun - and I suspect that the "gang" don't have any. They may still mock me but the imminent danger is different as well my ability to be intimidating (roar of the gun)

The said situation happened to me sometimes - one of those guys was "playing" with his tiny butterfly knife but that was it. No violence happened I was able to deescalate the situation including the "plea" that this guy should put his tiny and impractical but illegal knife back into a pocket. (OK I admit in this situation I had my 10cm boot knife and a hidden 18cm dagger in a armpit holster - and both knifes are practical) (anyhow I did't draw them - because when i started to cary knifes in public I swore an oath if I'm forced to draw a knife somebody dies - based on the creed of Hispanic knife fighters)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 20 July 2016 - 10:49 PM.

[RedDragon]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 20 July 2016 - 09:02 PM, said:

Evil people will always be evil and always have weapons and will always kill. end of story. No pieces of paper will stop them from illegally getting guns, as shootings in Germany, France etc have proven. If gun regulations worked shootings wouldn't happen at all.

Yeah, because there is absolutely no middle ground between "every criminal has a gun" and "no criminal has a gun". While we are at it, let's throw out all of our other laws, too. Because we have theft and murder anyway, so why outlaw them at all?
Gun regulations work, as shown by the statistics posted numerous times above. We don't only have a 0.2% rate of armed crimes because the people in Germany are so nice and lawful. It's because not every backyard thief has the means to acquire a gun, and that's a damn good thing. Unlike in the US where the rate of armed crimes is at like 1/3 (not sure about that one right now, but must be pretty close).

[Heffay]

You want to eliminate 90% of gun homicides without losing a single gun?

Legalize and regulate all drugs.

Prohibition is a horrible policy, and this applies to prohibition of anything people do for fun, including guns.

[Heffay]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 21 July 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

I am for banning assault weapons from the populace (no need for them) but people have the rights to bear arms (second amendment).

People don't need liquor either. No reasonable person should ever be allowed to have more than 2 beers a week. I'm sure we can all agree these are common sense, reasonable restrictions to alcohol.

[Karl Streiger]

Touché
Different scale by a margin but well said

I can agree never to drink beer anymore - 1 times a week two fingers Islay Single Malt is everything a man need

[Heffay]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 21 July 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

Actually liquor is proven to have great medicinal effects if used wisely. I actually had a friend who was told by a doctor to drink some beer because it would help him... so yeah.

Sure, a beer is good. And the beer really should be locked up at the local pharmacy to be used there for medicinal purposes, under lock and key.

But nobody needs assault whiskey.

[t Khrist]

Recent shootings in the US stem from deep seeded racism surrounding those individuals, so deep, they don't even realize they are consumed by it.

It's a special kind of racism, to where those cops if you asked them prior how they felt around black people, they would likely say they have no problem. But when confronted by them in a potentially criminal situation, the officers true fear comes out.

Yes, I believe it's fear causing knee-jerk reactions that lead to homicide. It's a nervousness that officers possess around other races, even if they're people who don't feel any animosity otherwise.

Marack is right, even with strict gun regulations, people like the shooter in Dallas would likely have gotten the weapon if they really wanted to. Taking away arms doesn't stop the inhuman nature of some people, nor would we as a nation allow our police to patrol without guns, it's just not something that would happen.

However, tighter gun regulations do take the weapons away from most individuals, and eventually make it harder for people who are less mentally stable to acquire them. I know people at my work who do not hunt, do not live in a bad neighborhood, and are likely to never be in a situation where a pistol is needed to defend themselves, yet they have concealed carry permits, and lug their guns around everywhere they can. Even to the damn grocery store with their kids.

All of this ends up revolving around one main concept, and that's mentality.

Having children growing up with the idea that they need to constantly carry around highly lethal weapons in order to defend themselves from a highly unlikely situation is not the right idea. Having police trained with the mentality that their first reaction to anything be 'grab my gun and shoot to kill' is not the right idea. Outlawing guns outright is not the right idea.

I understand Marack's concern for his situation (I live an hour away from Detroit), but if you're going to get shot by a gang member in Detroit, do you really think you having a gun is going to make the situation any better? Best case scenario you shoot them first right? I doubt your issues and fear will end there.

Regulations likely won't do much until years down the road. The weapons need to be filtered out, no legislation is effective the first day, they typically need a minimum of 5 years before things start to fall into place, and with something like gun control, likely much longer than that. The point is we need to get it started.

Adopting a policy similar to Australia's would be overwhelmingly beneficial to the US in my opinion. Any of the guns you would ever need for recreation are still available to the general public, you just have to prove your intentions and capability to keep you and others safe from that weapon.

In high school, I was on the rifle team. I graduated in '07, so recent enough to be surprised to have live arms in a high school. We had a shooting range with 20+ high precision .22 rifles/ammo in the basement under the gym. We shot guns in our school. But there was never an issue, and still isn't. Why? Because those firearms are tightly monitored, and have a myriad of fail-safes put in place to make sure they are only used for their intended purposes. Although, with all that, they could still be used to harm someone. So again, it's all up to the individual, mental illness, and LIMITING, not banning peoples access to firearms.

I'd be careful (of moderation) if I were some of the individuals in this thread. Some tend come across as a racially insensitive gun nuts with how you word things, and your backlash against folks from other nations. I hope you don't own a gun.

Edited by t Khrist, 21 July 2016 - 08:46 AM.

[Heffay]

t Khrist, on 21 July 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

Regulations likely won't do much until years down the road. The weapons need to be filtered out, no legislation is effective the first day, they typically need a minimum of 5 years before things start to fall into place, and with something like gun control, likely much longer than that. The point is we need to get it started.

The problem you're facing is that you're taking reasonable, law abiding people like me who have a hobby that isn't hurting anyone, and all of a sudden telling me that I'm a criminal. You want to know why gun control is such a tough sell? This is one of the big reasons.

I hate the arguments about self defense, gangs, safety, yadda yadda yadda. I have guns because they are fun. I see no reason why they need to be taken away just because a few other people can't behave responsibly.

The VAST majority of gun owners feel the same way. They aren't hurting anyone, but you want to label them criminals for an item they have in their homes. This is why gun control is such a tough sell. You're taking them away from normal people.

[t Khrist]

Heffay, on 21 July 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

The problem you're facing is that you're taking reasonable, law abiding people like me who have a hobby that isn't hurting anyone, and all of a sudden telling me that I'm a criminal. You want to know why gun control is such a tough sell? This is one of the big reasons.

Yea, that's why I said you should be able to own guns for recreation :| .

The regulations are in place to make it hard to own a gun, not illegal.

Guns are great, and a lot of fun, remember what I said about being on my high school's rifle team?

Look up Australian gun laws, you can still own probably all of the guns you currently do.

One of the biggest issues I think is gun registration and traceability.

Case: Knew of a gentleman who died who had a small armory's worth of firearms, all registered. He passed away and those weapons are now in possession of his wife and grown son. To their knowledge, the weapons are still registered to the deceased nearly a decade later. They've never been contacted about transfer of registration, or where the guns went after his passing.

I don't know about you, but myself and the two of them have always found this disturbing.

I know there are likely many variables as to why there's never been an inquiry into the fate of the guns. For how many firearms there probably are in the US, keeping track of who dies with what guns and where they legally go afterwards/making sure all of the necessary records are changed to reflect such would be a massively daunting task on top of what is an already broken system.

But it should be, and could be done. I doubt small improvements like that are something you would disagree with, and probably wouldn't stand very much in your way of ownership.

Edited by t Khrist, 21 July 2016 - 09:07 AM.

[Heffay]

t Khrist, on 21 July 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

I know there are likely many variables as to why there's never been an inquiry into the fate of the guns. For how many firearms there probably are in the US, keeping track of who dies with what guns and where they legally go afterwards/making sure all of the necessary records are changed to reflect such would be a massively daunting task on top of what is an already broken system.

I'd be perfectly fine with a gun registry and tracking system if you could ensure it was the last form of gun control that would be proposed.

Unregistered guns don't scare me any more than unregistered tequila. The only significant difference between those items is that one is FAR more dangerous than the other.

[Karl Streiger]

Tequila has below 40% it won't burn
But it would be a pity to waste such a delightful bottle

[t Khrist]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 21 July 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

And even then, you can turn tequila into a molitov bomb and burn a building down with nothing but paper towels and matches.

Also another problem with a gun registry system and gun regulation in general, is that it then creates a black/illegal market for guns. Same thing happened with alcohol in the 30's, and drugs now. We can't stop the drugs, we couldn't stop the alcohol, and we won't be able to stop a gun market either (I mean there is already a huge market for fully automatic weapons, which are easy to obtain at any shady dealer now).

~sigh~ We know Marack, but it still makes them harder to acquire and less available to the general population altogether. No one thinks gun can be 100% controlled, we know it's not a perfect world.

[Heffay]

t Khrist, on 21 July 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

~sigh~ We know Marack, but it still makes them harder to acquire and less available to the general population altogether. No one thinks gun can be 100% controlled, we know it's not a perfect world.

The solution to gun violence doesn't have to involve banning guns. That's the whole point.

Just like the solution to drunk driving and texting while driving isn't to ban alcohol or cell phones. That will be solved with self driving cars.

Just because other countries chose a particular solution to guns doesn't mean it's the best, or most effective. The drunk driving numbers out of Saudi Arabia are really good, but that doesn't mean we should look at implementing their solution to solving that problem.

This is America. We like to do things *better* than everyone else. Guns, cars, cell phones and booze for EVERYONE!

[Heffay]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 21 July 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

Tell that to the Germans in this thread.

Dude. DUDE!

dude...