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Let's Conduct A Little Experiment...


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#1 NinjaJesus

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 04:39 PM

So, according to this new system, they want to provide incentives to players that, say, chain-fire their weapons or set them on a smart rotation... they basically want less alpha-strikers.

-Okay. So I'm playing a Marauder with 4x Medium Pulse Lasers, an AC/20, and the MPLs are set to chain-fire. So I fire one, two, three, four, and then notice that I've cracked the armor, so I try to put a slug in my enemy. That's 24 Energy used, with another 20 from the AC/20, since it's by damage, so I trip the energy-to-heat penalty, even though I was smart about my shots and firing
circuits.

Meanwhile, someone else runs up to me with six MPLs set on one firing circuit. Blam, they try to splat me right in the face. That's 36 energy , tripping the same energy-to-heat penalty, BUT they've drained less power, since I used 44, and they've used 36. Hardly seems fair to me that the player using chain-fire pays the same price as the alpha striker.

-Is it possible that the energy draw should be tied to heat? That seems more logical anyways. Power doesn't register damage at a destination, but it would register heat. Maybe provide a static penalty of 10 power drawn by Gauss Rifles?

-A second dilemma here is how the whole point of having UACs is that you can fire them without interruption. Doesn't that make them worthless now?

-Also, if this theory carries through to its logical conclusion, rounds will take a LOT more time, severely reducing the number of rounds everyone can play. Does this mean mechs, weapons, equipment, etc, will see an across-the-board reduction on cost to reflect our reduced earning ability?

-If this is going to be the system now, why not eliminate ghost heat completely? Seems like power draw is the consequence now, not ghost heat.

As it stands, this seems like a poorly-conceived and poorly-implemented system to fix a problem by creating even bigger problems.

Edited by Abdication, 18 August 2016 - 05:36 PM.


#2 ExAstra

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 05:44 PM

You gain 20 energy per second whether you're firing or not. Using chain fire, you will not incur the energy draw heat penalty in your example of 4x MPLs + 1 AC/20.

Just tested it out.

By chain firing and then firing the AC/20 so fast that you might as well have done an Alpha Strike - I hit 34% on my Marauder, and exceeded energy draw (I'm talking like 100ms between clicks fast)

Chain firing faster than MWO's system and then firing the AC/20, however, didn't draw enough energy to exceed the energy recharge rate - and I only hit 30% heat on my Marauder.

Edited by ExAstra, 18 August 2016 - 05:52 PM.


#3 pyrocomp

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 05:55 PM

View PostAbdication, on 18 August 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:


-A second dilemma here is how the whole point of having UACs is that you can fire them without interruption. Doesn't that make them worthless now?


6xcUAC/5 do overheat, 2xcUAC/5+2xcUAC/10 does not. Might be that there is again a misprint or other error in cUAC/10 heat.

#4 NinjaJesus

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 05:56 PM

So the energy regen happens before it's even done firing? Or does the energy regenerate only AFTER the firing is complete? Because if the latter is the case, then the chain-fire example does apply, because you can spam chain-fire groups pretty quickly, and you still pay the same penalty as the alpha-striker.

I understand what you're getting at, but this is still a system that favors alpha strikers. If the energy regen happens during firing, then it's a wash at best. What do you think of the other points I raised? Slower rounds, tying the energy drain to heat instead of damage, eliminating ghost heat, etc.

#5 Domenoth

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 06:18 PM

View Postpyrocomp, on 18 August 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

6xcUAC/5 do overheat, 2xcUAC/5+2xcUAC/10 does not. Might be that there is again a misprint or other error in cUAC/10 heat.

This is slightly incorrect. They both over heat and they both don't. 6xcUAC/5 does not overheat on the first alpha, but it does if you fire again before 1.5 seconds elapse (30 Energy drained down to 0 + 20 Energy per second). 2xcUAC5 + 2xcUAC/10 will not overheat on the first alpha but will if you fire again before 1.5 seconds elapse (30 Energy drained down to 0 + 20 Energy per second). They are identical.

#6 ExAstra

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 06:20 PM

View PostAbdication, on 18 August 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

So the energy regen happens before it's even done firing? Or does the energy regenerate only AFTER the firing is complete? Because if the latter is the case, then the chain-fire example does apply, because you can spam chain-fire groups pretty quickly, and you still pay the same penalty as the alpha-striker.

I understand what you're getting at, but this is still a system that favors alpha strikers. If the energy regen happens during firing, then it's a wash at best. What do you think of the other points I raised? Slower rounds, tying the energy drain to heat instead of damage, eliminating ghost heat, etc.

You are always generating energy, unless you are at your maximum of 30. If you fire a weapon that removes 6 energy, as soon as it fires, you start regaining 2 energy per 100ms, so it would be .3 seconds from the time you pulled the trigger to recover the energy that your 6 damage weapon used.

In your Pulse Laser example, you are trying to imply that someone Alphaing you is getting the better end of the deal. The reality is, you gained /no penalty/ despite using 44 energy (since it was regenerated quickly). They got a +3 heat penalty for alpha striking you, because they used 36 energy instantaneously.

Edited by ExAstra, 18 August 2016 - 06:22 PM.


#7 ExAstra

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 06:31 PM

View PostAbdication, on 18 August 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

-Is it possible that the energy draw should be tied to heat? That seems more logical anyways. Power doesn't register damage at a destination, but it would register heat. Maybe provide a static penalty of 10 power drawn by Gauss Rifles?

Why? Gauss rifles cost 15 power by tying it to damage, which is much more fair. Tying energy to damage dealt encourages more cautious use of high powered weapons, rather than always alpha striking all the time. Tying it to heat will only give rise to low-heat high alpha build metas.

View PostAbdication, on 18 August 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

-A second dilemma here is how the whole point of having UACs is that you can fire them without interruption. Doesn't that make them worthless now?

No, because you can still push a bit more DPS down field using UACs than you could with regular ACs. Even a UAC/20 will be relatively unaffected by this: as long as you are only firing a single UAC/20, you will not incur a heat penalty for double-tapping the UAC/20.

View PostAbdication, on 18 August 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

-Also, if this theory carries through to its logical conclusion, rounds will take a LOT more time, severely reducing the number of rounds everyone can play. Does this mean mechs, weapons, equipment, etc, will see an across-the-board reduction on cost to reflect our reduced earning ability?

Yes, rounds will take longer. Isn't that what most people have been complaining about? TTK is too short? You die too fast? Reducing the speed you can put out your damage, thereby increasing the amount of time you're alive, then increases match time, yes. The devs are under the impression that that is what people want. You raise a good point about farming c-bills and XP however, as that time will go up also. If it's only a minute or two it's not really that big of a deal, but maybe they can up the rewards in a match a little bit to compensate.

View PostAbdication, on 18 August 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

-If this is going to be the system now, why not eliminate ghost heat completely? Seems like power draw is the consequence now, not ghost heat.

Ghost heat is removed by this change. The new "ghost heat" from the energy draw is the only ghost heat. And it is much more forgiving than the old ghost heat was.

#8 pyrocomp

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 06:45 PM

View PostDomenoth, on 18 August 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

This is slightly incorrect. They both over heat and they both don't. 6xcUAC/5 does not overheat on the first alpha, but it does if you fire again before 1.5 seconds elapse (30 Energy drained down to 0 + 20 Energy per second). 2xcUAC5 + 2xcUAC/10 will not overheat on the first alpha but will if you fire again before 1.5 seconds elapse (30 Energy drained down to 0 + 20 Energy per second). They are identical.

No, considering the cooldowns of cUAC/10 being at PTS 2.875s and cUAC/5 at 2.3s firing 6xcUAC5 keep you with the drained energy firing 2xcUAC5 + 2xcUAC/10 result in sometimes firing cUAC5 only (yes, bad timing on my part) thus keeping you above penalty most of the time. Plus, keeping 'left group' and 'right group' helps that even more. Groups of 3xcUAC5 do behave worse, or I am plain bad with them. :) Will try tommorow.

#9 NinjaJesus

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 07:59 PM

View PostExAstra, on 18 August 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

You are always generating energy, unless you are at your maximum of 30. If you fire a weapon that removes 6 energy, as soon as it fires, you start regaining 2 energy per 100ms, so it would be .3 seconds from the time you pulled the trigger to recover the energy that your 6 damage weapon used.

In your Pulse Laser example, you are trying to imply that someone Alphaing you is getting the better end of the deal. The reality is, you gained /no penalty/ despite using 44 energy (since it was regenerated quickly). They got a +3 heat penalty for alpha striking you, because they used 36 energy instantaneously.


Okay, thanks for the clarification, I wasn't sure if energy was regenerating during firing or after weapon discharge. That does, in fact, make a difference. And I wasn't implying or trying to imply, I was outright stating that the new system seemed to favor the very same alpha striking they were trying to discourage. Seems like they're already bearing fire duration in mind for this system.

I do still think players would benefit from a c-bill/exp boost, or an across-the-board cost reduction to reflect longer matches for people that need to grind for gear. And for the record, I tend to last fairly long in matches when I don't race past my team accidentally. I find a match satisfying when I make it through something like the halfway mark. Shorter if I feel like I made a big/good impact.

Edited by Abdication, 18 August 2016 - 08:01 PM.






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