51 replies to this topic

[Davers]

xe N on, on 18 August 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

In addition, the system limit the hardpoint inflation problem.

If hard point inflation is the problem, wouldn't reducing the hard points be the solution?

[pyrocomp]

KBurn85, on 18 August 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

This is a good suggestion. Along with lowering cooldown.

Just realised when the bads say they brawl with the easy-to-use PPFLD "brawling weapons" like PPC, AC20, gauss, all those weapons are just long ranged weapons bads cannot use in long range due to leading, so they brawl with it.

Brawling needs a massive leg up. I'm even thinking no energy draw for SRMs, small lasers, and any other weapon below 300m

Facehugging will be... massive. Facehugging lights will bring down those assaults even faster.

[jweltsch]

xe N on, on 18 August 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

the base idea of this sytem is very good. Values need to be tweaked.

Heavier mechs can either now carry weapons for different purpose or use multiple fire groups.

This makes mixed loadouts viable, e.g. gauss + ppc for long range, SRMs for short range.

Lighter mechs still need to specialize.

In addition, the system limit the hardpoint inflation problem. Mechs like Shadowhawk and Victor may be viable again.

Thumbs up PGI.

No, it does not make mixed loadouts valuable, a long ranged loadout with the same potential damage with the energy draw loadouts will be strictly superior. Then you can fire the long ranged groups at long range AND short range for about the same cd/heat as the brawler.... cept he has to get in your face to shoot you and you can shoot him across the map. Energy draw NEEDS to account for range.

[Andi Nagasia]

Doctor Dinosaur, on 18 August 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

[ ] You are aware that the 30 energy Cap will differ in the future.
I'm just wondering if it will be related to weight or used engine.

im betting Weight Class, i can see L30 M30 H35 A40,
linking it to engine will shaft mechs like the KFX and ADR wail helping mechs like the ACH,
mechs will lower Max Engines would then take the hit, so i think its better to leave Engines out of it,

[Syanis]

KBurn85, on 18 August 2016 - 07:08 PM, said:

You know what MWO needs more? More heavies! The optimum point of a 30 alpha is a heavy or medium, with the biggest engine it can carry. Why take a dire to plink out 30pt alphas, when a blackjack can do the exact same thing at twice the speed?

Brawling gameplay, which is the most exciting style, will be going out of the window.

Instead of a massive 80pt alpha as a punishment for letting an atlas get close to you, now all that pathetic atlas can do is plink out 30 pts slowly, as you run away from it, get to more than 300m away, and casually poke it to death.

The new changes will remove any shred of skill or thinking required to position yourself well, ambush enemies in close range, use cover to move up, or even charging up your gauss rifle. It has turned it into a 360noscopeblazeit420 COD-esque game, where everyone has the same rifles, and run around shooting each other with the exact same 30pt alphas.

This change will be accepted by all the non-thinkers and no-skillers, but anyone with a shred of skill will be gone. I've spent more than $300. All that money down the drain.

Consider still that that Assault may have 110 armor on its CT while your medium or light is sitting at 25-50. Plus the Assault has more structure HP as well. Both can carry short or long range weapons and unless caught in the *Direspin* where the big boy can't keep up on twisting we know who should die first. Then also the Assault can sport more room and tonnage for heatsinks to keep heat lower longer the light/medium may be able to get off 3 30p hits before needing to cool while the assault could maybe go 6 rounds before needing to cool off. Add in 20 energy returned every second meaning need 1.5 seconds between 30p shots the Assault can still dish out longer with faster on burst w/o needing to worry on heat.

There are still some issues however. But consider 6 SRM builds with a 4 second cooldown. You can fire 3 w/o excess heat from a larger energy draw and then 1.5 seconds later fire the other 3 SRMs. As its a 4 second cooldown now that would mean firing 3 every 2 seconds. Of course SRMs like all weapons will get their cooldowns nerfed as will the mods but with the right quirks it may still be close to the base of 3 every 2 seconds. It just means you can't unload all 6 instantly and then hide for 4 seconds on cooldown (or longer due to ghost heat).

[Tiantara]

KBurn85, on 18 August 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

How? Direwhale's alpha is 70, more than twice the threshold (2 gauss, 2 LPL, 2 ERML) If I wanted dual gauss, I would have chosen a rifleman or something,

- Yeap. But let's see - with current ghost heat all above 68alpha become pretty nailed to risking blow your engine even with shutdown. You get damage and die. Normally working alpha is - 56-61 dmg and can be split in two. Also that makes hot map more playable and cold one more dynamic. Isn't it great?

[Gryphorim]

Perhaps engine rating should be a factor in determining max energy?
Assaults generally use larger engines, so mech construction would be a balancing game of engine tonnage, weapon tonnage and survivability to get the best out of assaults.

Alternatively, just factor in mech tonnage. Maybe assaults should get 40 energy, heavies 30, mediums 25 and lights 20. Although, lights probably don't need any firepower limits.

[Gas Guzzler]

Engine rating SHOULD NOT BE a factor in energy draw. Big engines have enough advantages.

Honestly, with a higher draw limit for assaults and lower damage weight on lasers this would be tolerable.

[Lyoto Machida]

Gryphorim, on 18 August 2016 - 08:59 PM, said:

Perhaps engine rating should be a factor in determining max energy?
Assaults generally use larger engines, so mech construction would be a balancing game of engine tonnage, weapon tonnage and survivability to get the best out of assaults.

Alternatively, just factor in mech tonnage. Maybe assaults should get 40 energy, heavies 30, mediums 25 and lights 20. Although, lights probably don't need any firepower limits.

I think I'd be fine with no draw limits on lights.

[ChewBaka]

Doctor Dinosaur, on 18 August 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

[ ] You are aware that the 30 energy Cap will differ in the future.

I'm just wondering if it will be related to weight or used engine.

If its tied to engine alone, a good number of clan omnimechs will be royally shafted.

You can sell off the whales now...

[Felbombling]

Hey... Capt. Overreaction... did you even read the test notes before you jumped in? Holy sh!tballs... this is a first iteration that they're looking for feedback on. This isn't set in stone or anything.

[Khobai]

energy cap should NOT have anything to do with engine rating. thats idiotic.

An atlas with a 300 engine should do more damage than a dragon with a 360 engine for example.

engine rating should have absolutely nothing to do with it.


it should be entirely based on the weight class of the mech. for example:

light = 30
medium = 35
heavy = 40
assault = 45


An assault should always do more damage than lighter weight classes regardless of how fast or slow it is.

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2016 - 11:02 PM.

[Leone]

Huh, weird. As a dedicated brawler, I had no issues with brawling. So long as I remembered the damage cap per shots fired.

~Leone.

[Kuaron]

Just had a few matches on the test server.
My 11 SPL Stormcrow doesn't work any more. It has 10 SPL now.

Honestly, I am more concerned about the 3 LPLs + a couple MLs heavies now.
Sure, they were lame. But what to stick in the remaining 2-4 energy slots now? You don't want to fire anything together with your LPLs, so the similar range and beam duration for the MLs have no value any more. And you have not enough weight for an entirely self-contained second energy weapon group, for which you would take the disadvantage to double your face time.

[Omaha]

KBurn85, on 18 August 2016 - 07:08 PM, said:

Brawling gameplay, which is the most exciting style, will be going out of the window.

Speak for yourself! I always thought the brawl to be a pretty generic thing in MWO, slap all the small lasers, srms u can and run at the enemy, always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

On the other side, some of my sniping builds were affected too. Most of the were around 42 or so alpha.

Edited by Omaha, 19 August 2016 - 12:07 AM.

[LordNothing]

put 3 ultra 20s on a dire, you will change your mind.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 August 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

Engine rating SHOULD NOT BE a factor in energy draw. Big engines have enough advantages.

Honestly, with a higher draw limit for assaults and lower damage weight on lasers this would be tolerable.

Has your download of the PTS finished yet? Because I can assure you that assaults are alive and kicking butt in the PTS right now with PPC, Gauss, and/or Dakka builds. They really don't need any help in that department.

Lower energy requirements for lazors is fine though. Probably SRMs too.

[C E Dwyer]

I disagree, only thing this is slightly restricting is big alpha shots, and not really by that much.

If people can't track a brawling heavy for half a second for another weapon group, I think it's them and not the system that are at fault.

if anything the trigger of 30 is to generous, and should be dropped down to 29 or even 28, because of the proposed removal of the gauss mechanic.

With 30 points of damage the trigger, you can still hammer a target with an ac20 and two srm6 artemis, followed up by a second pair of srm6 and two medium lasers half a second later, which is the maximum weapon load of the Atlas S.

If they put this live next Tuesday as it stood I wouldn't have any complaints about it, being launched and then tweaked over the next few weeks as needed, there are a few little things, but I think P.G.I have made a good system, my only complaint about it, is they could have done exactly the same by lowering the heat threshold and increasing dissipation

[Alistair Winter]

So... instead of solutions that would make things better for lights and mediums, people are coming up with ways to buff assaults? Those are the mechs that really need help? Not the Commando or the Panther?

<sigh>

Edited by Alistair Winter, 19 August 2016 - 04:30 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Kuaron, on 18 August 2016 - 11:57 PM, said:

Just had a few matches on the test server.
My 11 SPL Stormcrow doesn't work any more. It has 10 SPL now.

Honestly, I am more concerned about the 3 LPLs + a couple MLs heavies now.
Sure, they were lame. But what to stick in the remaining 2-4 energy slots now? You don't want to fire anything together with your LPLs, so the similar range and beam duration for the MLs have no value any more. And you have not enough weight for an entirely self-contained second energy weapon group, for which you would take the disadvantage to double your face time.

Odd, I tested a stock 12 ERML Nova this morning and found it very hard to make the thing die on cold maps, shooting off all 12 in one big alpha, using the old system a full alpha was boom time, I also tested a direstar the 6 erppc version on canyon, and was surprised by how many full alpha's I could produce before it went boom. and tested the poptart ability of a triple erppc Executioner using masc.

If anything it's not as close to restricting as I thought it would be and I advocate a drop from 30 to 29.

I get the impression that many people here are just disliking it out of principle, because they don't want it, rather than its a bad system

Forgot one I tried to alpha a 9 mpl Top Dog to destruction on frozen city, and in the end switched off over ride, to enduce the explosion, because it got tedious

Edited by Cathy, 19 August 2016 - 04:49 AM.