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Power Draw Is Fine - But Gauss Charge Needs To Be Put Back.


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#41 Y E O N N E

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:11 AM

View PostVxheous Kerensky, on 18 August 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:


Not sure how a charge mechanic made it so those listed mechs all of a sudden couldn't use Gauss and now can all of a sudden use Gauss again.


He plays with a joystick. Seriously.

#42 FupDup

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:12 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 19 August 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

He plays with a joystick. Seriously.

He is the master of the steering wheel joystick underhive.

#43 The Big Dan Theory

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Posted 03 September 2016 - 11:52 PM

View PostCara Carcass, on 19 August 2016 - 03:34 AM, said:


The Cooldown modules got nerfed to 5% on PTS - you have to recalculate your numbers.


Actually... No, sir. Read again what I've wrote:

View PostThe Big Dan Theory, on 18 August 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:


Energy Draw PTS: Every weapon had its cooldown time increased and the module got capped to 5%. Since gauss cooldown is 6.71s now with NO CHARGE PERIOD... Time between shots: 5.5s with the cooldown module.



#44 kapusta11

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 06:50 AM

Yea, 15 damage cERPPCs are especially "fine".

#45 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 07:01 AM

View PostHit the Deck, on 18 August 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

Just throwing this out:


I like this idea. A lot. A single gauss isn't a huge deal. Two or more gauss rifles start to get into the realm of easy mode without some sort of fire delay. I personally like the charge up in that it feels like I'm firing a gigantic bow. I pull the string back by charging, and then I release the shot to let it fly.

Anyone who thinks using a Gauss with a macro is a good idea, however... SMH. Way too much utility in being able to hold a charge or abort a shot entirely.

View Postkapusta11, on 04 September 2016 - 06:50 AM, said:

Yea, 15 damage cERPPCs are especially "fine".


Hot and slower projectile speeds. Also has a cooldown that close to compensates for the DPS of IS PPCs. 50% more damage, 50% more heat, 40% longer cooldown. Too hot to boat effectively, but gives certain tonnage or hardpoint limited Clan mechs a viable long ranged option, at the expense of brawling capability.

#46 Gentleman Reaper

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 07:39 AM

Honestly, I'd rather see a charge mechanic on PPCs with a velocity increase. If we add charge to gauss, then it adds another disadvantage versus PPCs, which are half the weight and bulk, and aren't tied down with ammo.

Edited by Gentleman Reaper, 04 September 2016 - 07:40 AM.


#47 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 02:45 PM

View PostGentleman Reaper, on 04 September 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Honestly, I'd rather see a charge mechanic on PPCs with a velocity increase. If we add charge to gauss, then it adds another disadvantage versus PPCs, which are half the weight and bulk, and aren't tied down with ammo.


No ammo but you do have a heat penalty that is resolved with having to take DHS. It isn't like it's free, and the heat generated by two C-ERPPC basically force you to not fire any other weapon systems alongside them, outside of Gauss (without the ED system). With the ED system, you're still generating that crippling heat that is saturating your ability to sink. If anything, they force a combination or bracket build, since they are so slow to recharge and hot to fire. Might take two ERPPC, and a few SRM to shoot instead when things get close and personal.

#48 FupDup

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 02:55 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 04 September 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

Hot and slower projectile speeds. Also has a cooldown that close to compensates for the DPS of IS PPCs. 50% more damage, 50% more heat, 40% longer cooldown. Too hot to boat effectively, but gives certain tonnage or hardpoint limited Clan mechs a viable long ranged option, at the expense of brawling capability.

The cooldown isn't really an issue because you have 10% more DPS in the end.

PPC:
10 damage / 5 seconds = 2.0 DPS

CERPPC:
15 damage / 6.8 seconds = 2.2 DPS

Having a longer cooldown is only a weakness when it makes the DPS go down. Likewise, having a faster cooldown is only useful if your DPS is higher as a result of it. That is not the case here.

Another example of the same concept in action is the AC/10 vs. AC/20 debate. People say "The AC/10 reloads faster, that's totally an advantage!" Except since the AC/10 has lower DPS at the end, you aren't gaining anything by shooting faster. In that case it's actually a weakness since you have more facetime, and 2.5s is a weird spot that doesn't go well with sword/board while also not going well with facetank unloading on people.


EDIT: Fixed the CERPPC cooldown for the Sept. 2nd PTS update.

Edited by FupDup, 04 September 2016 - 04:58 PM.


#49 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 03:18 PM

View PostFupDup, on 04 September 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

The cooldown isn't really an issue because you have 25% more DPS in the end.

PPC:
10 damage / 5 seconds = 2.0 DPS

CERPPC:
15 damage / 6 seconds = 2.5 DPS

Having a longer cooldown is only a weakness when it makes the DPS go down. Likewise, having a faster cooldown is only useful if your DPS is higher as a result of it. That is not the case here.

Another example of the same concept in action is the AC/10 vs. AC/20 debate. People say "The AC/10 reloads faster, that's totally an advantage!" Except since the AC/10 has lower DPS at the end, you aren't gaining anything by shooting faster. In that case it's actually a weakness since you have more facetime, and 2.5s is a weird spot that doesn't go well with sword/board while also not going well with facetank unloading on people.


The current cooldown is 6.8 seconds. Meaning DPS is ~2.2 (at 15 heat) vs the standard PPC/IS ERPPC of 2.0 DPS. Also, cooldown is directly and 100% related to DPS. You made me actually blurt out a "what" and have it read by another person to determine if what you said made any sense there. o_0

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 04 September 2016 - 03:20 PM.


#50 FupDup

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 04:56 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 04 September 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

The current cooldown is 6.8 seconds. Meaning DPS is ~2.2 (at 15 heat) vs the standard PPC/IS ERPPC of 2.0 DPS. Also, cooldown is directly and 100% related to DPS. You made me actually blurt out a "what" and have it read by another person to determine if what you said made any sense there. o_0

I didn't see that September 2nd update in the patch notes...I got the numbers wrong then.

However, even then the fact remains that the Clan ERPPC still has slightly superior DPS to both IS PPC varieties. You can't complain about slower reloading if your DPS is higher in spite of it.

What you're forgetting is that DPS isn't just about reload time, it's about upfront damage AND reload time combined. You can have superior DPS with a slower reload if your frontloaded damage is significantly higer.

Edited by FupDup, 04 September 2016 - 04:58 PM.


#51 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 05:04 PM

View PostFupDup, on 04 September 2016 - 04:56 PM, said:

I didn't see that September 2nd update in the patch notes...I got the numbers wrong then.

However, even then the fact remains that the Clan ERPPC still has slightly superior DPS to both IS PPC varieties. You can't complain about slower reloading if your DPS is higher in spite of it.

What you're forgetting is that DPS isn't just about reload time, it's about upfront damage AND reload time combined. You can have superior DPS with a slower reload if your frontloaded damage is significantly higer.


You cannot forget about heat as a balancing mechanic, in addition to the cooldown and damage, which is easily forgotten. At 50% higher damage and 50% higher heat, with 40% longer cooldown, you're still generating more heat per shoot and recharge cycle than an IS PPC.

Frankly, I'd like to see the IS ERPPC get a lot colder. 10 damage/10 heat, with the standard PPC being more like 10/8 or perhaps a faster cycling weapon than the IS ERPPC - assuming all PPC/ERPPC quirks on IS mechs were adjusted to compensate. In any case, the PPC series has been historically weak, and I think stifling the C-ERPPC just to keep it in line with borked weapon systems is the incorrect approach. Improving the IS ones would, IMO, be the better route.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 04 September 2016 - 05:06 PM.


#52 FupDup

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 05:20 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 04 September 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

You cannot forget about heat as a balancing mechanic, in addition to the cooldown and damage, which is easily forgotten. At 50% higher damage and 50% higher heat, with 40% longer cooldown, you're still generating more heat per shoot and recharge cycle than an IS PPC.

In terms of heat, there's also heat per second to worry about rather than just heat per shot. The long cooldown actually has an effect here...

IS ERPPC: 13.5 heat every 5 seconds = 2.7 heat per second

Clam ERPPC: 15 heat every 6.8 seconds = 2.21 heat per second

---

Furthermore, another statistic is damage per heat, which is one of the key advantages that wubs have over regular lasers (e.g. why the Clan SPL beats the Clan ERSL).

IS ERPPC: 10 damage / 13.5 heat = 0.741 damage per heat

Clam ERPPC: 15 damage / 15 heat = 1.0 damage per heat

---

Additionally, the extra 1 ton saved on the Clan ERPPC lets you add an extra DHS, which further favors the heat discussion in its favor.

Ultimately, the Clan ERPPC is significantly favored over the IS version in PTS-3. This only changes when using an IS mech with pretty big ERPeep quirks.

The ISPeep stands a much better chance (2.0 heat per second, 1.0 damage per heat), but even then the Clan ERPPC is worth approximately 1.5 regular PPCs. 2 Clan ERPeeps make the same heat and damage as 3 IS Peeps, but for far less tonnage. There's also range and velocity to consider...


View PostPariah Devalis, on 04 September 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

Frankly, I'd like to see the IS ERPPC get a lot colder. 10 damage/10 heat, with the standard PPC being more like 10/8 or perhaps a faster cycling weapon than the IS ERPPC - assuming all PPC/ERPPC quirks on IS mechs were adjusted to compensate. In any case, the PPC series has been historically weak, and I think stifling the C-ERPPC just to keep it in line with borked weapon systems is the incorrect approach. Improving the IS ones would, IMO, be the better route.

With a heat difference on only 2, it would be hard to balance the IS Peep and ERPeep such that they fulfill slightly different roles without one being the clear winner. It's a similar case as the IS LL versus ERLL. I'd rather use velocity here.

While a valid case can be made for improving ISPeeps on unquirked mechs, that doesn't mean that the "6 ton Gauss" Clan ERPeep is balanced as it is. If there has to be insistence on more upfront damage, how about like 12 or so? (with correspondingly lower power draw and cooldown). Having 2 Clan ERPPCs being more efficient in most qualities than 3 IS PPCs is kind of silly.

#53 Gentleman Reaper

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 05:26 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 04 September 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:


You cannot forget about heat as a balancing mechanic, in addition to the cooldown and damage, which is easily forgotten. At 50% higher damage and 50% higher heat, with 40% longer cooldown, you're still generating more heat per shoot and recharge cycle than an IS PPC.

Frankly, I'd like to see the IS ERPPC get a lot colder. 10 damage/10 heat, with the standard PPC being more like 10/8 or perhaps a faster cycling weapon than the IS ERPPC - assuming all PPC/ERPPC quirks on IS mechs were adjusted to compensate. In any case, the PPC series has been historically weak, and I think stifling the C-ERPPC just to keep it in line with borked weapon systems is the incorrect approach. Improving the IS ones would, IMO, be the better route.


I'd like to IS ERPPC get higher velocity, while staying more-or-less at the same heat, so that the ERPPC is properly represented as an effective long range weapon, not just a PPC with more effective range and no minimum range.

#54 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 05:30 PM

View PostFupDup, on 04 September 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

If there has to be insistence on more upfront damage, how about like 12 or so? (with correspondingly lower power draw and cooldown). Having 2 Clan ERPPCs being more efficient in most qualities than 3 IS PPCs is kind of silly.


View PostGentleman Reaper, on 04 September 2016 - 05:26 PM, said:


I'd like to IS ERPPC get higher velocity, while staying more-or-less at the same heat, so that the ERPPC is properly represented as an effective long range weapon, not just a PPC with more effective range and no minimum range.


That is one thing I think we agree on: that it makes no sense that the ED is more than 1:1 for the IS ERPPC and, thus, creates it such that 3x IS ERPPC is not equal in an ED sense to two C ERPPC.

Another alternative to flattening the heat is simply to increase the damage output of IS ERPPC and adjust their cooldown to compensate in an attempt to keep the DPS and HPS approximately equal among all three types. Say, 10/10 with 5 for the PPC with no minimum range, 12/12/6 for the IS ERPPC, and 14/14/7 for the C ERPPC. All with a 1:1 ED draw. HPS and DPS are equal across all three this way.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 04 September 2016 - 05:31 PM.


#55 kapusta11

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 10:11 PM

View PostFupDup, on 04 September 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

In that case it's actually a weakness since you have more facetime, and 2.5s is a weird spot that doesn't go well with sword/board while also not going well with facetank unloading on people.


Makes me wonder how well will AC5s fare with 2.3 sec cooldown and UACs being so unreliable with 8 sec jam. Yes, on paper they have high dps but you do have to stare more than you would probably want now.

Even on live servers AC5s are only good when you boat them, preferably together with UAC5s, and then it requires a team effort to actually use your dps advantage. 2x AC5 + 2x UAC5 Black Widows and 3x AC5 + 2x UAC5 Maulers are great mechs but do you hear anything about mechs that use just 2 or 3 AC5?

PGI probably saw comps using dakka and thought, "Hey, it must be OP, let's nerf it!"

Edited by kapusta11, 05 September 2016 - 01:26 AM.


#56 Herr Vorragend

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 11:05 AM

The charge-mechanic needs to go. PTS feels great without it. Especially when you're riding a fast mech with a single gauss. And if there's a way to reduce macrowarrior online I'm fine with it :)





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