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Sereglach's Energy Draw Feedback, Pts Round 1


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#1 Sereglach

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 09:36 PM

Ok, this was something I had been waiting for, so I'm actually in the process of testing this after updating my PTS client (Forced to redownload the whole thing, seriously!? what happened here? It's been sitting just fine since the last PTS . . . oh . . . nearly a year ago now). Here are my overall thoughts after playing around with things in testing grounds for a while with a decent variety of mechs/weapons (easier and quicker to get solid results that way):

1. Ok, you're doing some weapon tuning while you're doing this . . . fix some of the weapons that desperately need attention while you're at it. You're ignoring MGs and Flamers while you're doing this (in fact Flamers are in dire need of addressing because of how heat is impacted by this system) but it's a perfect time to fix them; and it's also a great time to give LBX autocannons some love, too.

- Remove all of the convoluted extra stuff that was done to Flamers and integrate them into the fold of Energy Draw. It is a win-win for both ease of use and functionality. Set Flamers to 1.0 DPS, 2.0 HDPS (Heat Damage Per Second), 1.0 HPS (Heat Per Second), and 1.0 Energy Draw per second (can even make it 2.0 Energy Draw if you feel so inclined, but 1.0 should be good). This instantly removes the old problem with the "tap bug" that existed in the old system. You can't Spam Flamers all day because you'll eventually enter overdraw heat penalties, and the weapon will actually do just enough physical damage to be useful while still doing just enough heat damage to be an actual nuisance. As a major plus, there's no extra UI stuff or hidden mechanics . . . it makes it completely integrated with everything else in the game.

- Give MG's a little bump to 1.0 DPS (.1 per bullet) and see how it goes. It will make them a decent DPS filler weapon while waiting on Energy Draw and you might see them in more builds under this new system. A complete lack of Heat OR Energy Draw with modest DPS would actually make them at least semi-respectable. It would actually make them a desirable backup weapon for overall high-draw builds.

- LBX Energy Draw still just feels high for the very high spread in these weapons (even just at the edge of "Optimum" range). Sincerely consider, please, raising the damage per pellet and/or dropping the energy draw. 1.5 Damage per pellet with .5 Energy Draw = .75 Energy per Pellet. Seems like a reasonable place to start to me.

2. Heat penalty for going over is not aggressive enough. 1.0 Heat per 1.0 Energy, especially when you've got mechs with heat caps that can be anywhere from 50-70 heat (30 base + 25x1.5 DHS cap = 67.5 heat cap). When a mech goes into over-draw, they should really feel it. You want to make Alpha Strikes a risk-reward burst damage play or last-ditch effort, that's how you do it. Here are two glaring examples:

- My King Crab with 2x AC/20 + 2x LL can fire 2 Alphas and BARELY shut down (I could dump my AMS and get an extra DHS and not shut down, it's that close). However, I can fire both AC/20s non stop for 11 volleys (22 rounds) of 40 PPFLD before shutdown. To me that's a serious issue.

- 6 CSPL Arctic Cheetah can still belt out 4 Alpha Strikes for 36 points of near PPFLD, each, no problem and without an overheat. That simple change would instantly drop that Alpha count to 3 and helps mitigate what is considered one of the most egregious laser-vomit alpha builds among the lights. It doesn't eliminate it; but it mitigates it and makes other light builds/chassis more appealing, which encourages build and mech variety.

3. With the energy overdraw to heat ratio listed above, the 2 Gauss Rifle limit is pointless. Instead, set Gauss Rifles to draw 2 Energy per point of damage (30 energy base). Fire 3 Gauss Rifles and get 60 heat from 1.0 Energy Overdraw to 1.0 Heat exchange . . . enough to shut down most -if not all- 3 Gauss Builds. Fire 4 Gauss Rifles and incur 90 heat penalty . . . instant severe shutdown (with severe internal damage if not death). However, 3-4 Gauss Rifles could safely be fired individually every 1.5-2 seconds in a constant barrage of Gauss Rifle slugs for a serious DPS build. This provides more viable build variety ; and that's the objective here, right?

4. Given the energy draw system, I'd actually advocate for the removal of the UAC jam chance. The heat penalty from very large UACs double-tapping alone would be enough to give people pause about boating or excessive double-tap (especially with a 1.0 equal exchange of overdraw-heat). Even massive quantities of little UAC's (6x UAC/2's for example) will quickly overload the system when double-tapped too much. This also helps the little-guys that can only carry 1-2 autocannons anyway (my UAC/5 Urbie would love you forever) and the enhancement is semi-negligible for other mechs but helps these particular brand of mechs be more competitive.

5. Overall the increase in weapon cooldowns is noticeable but actually very appreciated . . . mostly. On Streak Missile systems, the poor little Streak-2 with its cooldown of 4.03 seconds (IS OR Clan) is ridiculous. On larger systems, the cooldown becomes so long that these weapons can be fired non-stop in nearly any volume without any real risk from overheating . . . even with overdraw. It only becomes an issue when other weapon systems are also involved. Maybe that's intended, but I'd consider removing the cooldown increase on the streak systems (especially the poor little Streak-2). They already spread damage enough that they're primarily only a threat to lights, and the new energy draw system ensures that mechs can't just skirt Ghost Heat with different numbers of Streak systems in conjunction with other weapons.

6. As a generic rule of thumb, I'd say that the current energy draw ratios are in a pretty solid place. However, again, I'll emphasize that I think the overdraw penalty needs to be increased to 1.0 heat per 1.0 energy overdraw. Personally, I don't think energy supply or regeneration really needs much alteration outside of that. Lighter mechs will be hit harder when they overdraw because they've got a lower overall heat cap, generally speaking, while heavier mechs won't be anywhere near as effected by similar overdraws (6 CSPL, for example).

7. I didn't realize there was an audio cue for Energy Overdraw until I piloted an Arctic Cheetah with CSPLs on it (since they have such a subtle and low firing sound). Make this audio cue much more pronounced and distinguished. Everyone playing for any amount of time instantly recognizes the critical heat alarm . . . you need to do the same for this Overdraw alarm. This will be especially pertinent/necessary for when there's larger firefights and lots going on.

8. The visuals on the HUD are actually really easy to understand. It's surprisingly much better implemented than Ghost Heat ever was. Shifting from weird little Mech-Lab warnings (something a new player will never notice until they get to build their first mech) to a surprisingly simple and intuitive UI is leaps and bounds better.

As a final note . . . I realize there is still front end UI work and whatnot to be done, but as things stand I am actually in a bit of awe over how bug-free the build is for the initial implementation of the Energy Draw system. Make the above changes (particularly and especially the Flamer part from #1) and you've got something that will bring my interest back and give me some new hope for the game. I look forward to the next build and hopefully seeing the above-mentioned changes in place.

Edited by Sereglach, 18 August 2016 - 09:42 PM.


#2 Johnny Z

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 12:35 AM

Nice but a bit much to read considering how much feedback is being communicated.

#3 ExAstra

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 12:44 AM

View PostSereglach, on 18 August 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

3. With the energy overdraw to heat ratio listed above, the 2 Gauss Rifle limit is pointless. Instead, set Gauss Rifles to draw 2 Energy per point of damage (30 energy base). Fire 3 Gauss Rifles and get 60 heat from 1.0 Energy Overdraw to 1.0 Heat exchange . . . enough to shut down most -if not all- 3 Gauss Builds. Fire 4 Gauss Rifles and incur 90 heat penalty . . . instant severe shutdown (with severe internal damage if not death). However, 3-4 Gauss Rifles could safely be fired individually every 1.5-2 seconds in a constant barrage of Gauss Rifle slugs for a serious DPS build. This provides more viable build variety ; and that's the objective here, right?

5. Overall the increase in weapon cooldowns is noticeable but actually very appreciated . . . mostly. On Streak Missile systems, the poor little Streak-2 with its cooldown of 4.03 seconds (IS OR Clan) is ridiculous. On larger systems, the cooldown becomes so long that these weapons can be fired non-stop in nearly any volume without any real risk from overheating . . . even with overdraw. It only becomes an issue when other weapon systems are also involved. Maybe that's intended, but I'd consider removing the cooldown increase on the streak systems (especially the poor little Streak-2). They already spread damage enough that they're primarily only a threat to lights, and the new energy draw system ensures that mechs can't just skirt Ghost Heat with different numbers of Streak systems in conjunction with other weapons.

I quite like/agree with these particular points. Make using multiple Gauss rifles at the same time an important decision to make, not a no brainer.

As for the Streaks, though. Did anyone actually use cSSRM2s? I know 2s are all the IS has so you're stuck, but I don't think I've ever seen a cSSRM2 ever.

#4 Cyrilis

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 01:02 AM

I will only edit this post as I do not want to spam single comments...

-

View PostSereglach, on 18 August 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

2. Heat penalty for going over is not aggressive enough.


absolutely. The effect is neglegilbe at the moment. Additionally, through the removal of ghost heat, I think (only at th moment with the current PTS values!) Massive alpha laser vomit build are favored massively. I can alpha my NVA-PRIME 9 times (!) befor getting destroyed).

- after the first testing, and seeing what people bring in the matches my for-this-moment thoughts are that the power draw system only works if the penalties are increased dramatically or if it is stacked upon the existing ghost heat system.

- Additionally I feel that the effect of the weapon cooldown modules become close to not noticable. These tweaks also need to be worked over or removed

- Behold of the poptarts... removing the gauss chargeup will result in massive pinpoint long range gauss+2erppc snipers that give a **** about energy range.

- IMHO would preferr the Gauss mechanics to stay as is (if the max range is cut down to 2x of effective range I would like to see a the effective range to go up to 700)

after some testing an thinking, it comes down to: system good if values change as stated above.
Please leave the cooldowns and module values untouched. Weapon damage values are alos good, I think there is no need to lower e.g. the LPL damage. Concerning the heat penalty go to at least 1 point heat per overdraw, or, as suggested by others aready an exponential law.

edited on Aug 23:

I just had an Idea about the gauss. What about leaving gauss chargeup as it is at the moment. Just shift the time where the energy is drawn from the system to the start of the charging cycle and draw no energy when the shot is released.If the shot is not released your energy draw bar was wasted once.
IMPORTANT: As long as the gauss is hold charged, the energy does not refill. Otherwise it would be possible to stack the gauss upon other weapons, wich would nullify the wanted effect of the energy draw system.

I think that way would be a good possibility to do as little change to the gauss as possible and making it fit into the system.

Edited by Cyrilis, 23 August 2016 - 05:28 AM.


#5 Dr Cara Carcass

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 04:24 AM

View PostCyrilis, on 19 August 2016 - 01:02 AM, said:

I will only edit this post as I do not want to spam single comments...

-

absolutely. The effect is neglegilbe at the moment. Additionally, through the removal of ghost heat, I think (only at th moment with the current PTS values!) Massive alpha laser vomit build are favored massively. I can alpha my NVA-PRIME 9 times (!) befor getting destroyed).

- after the first testing, and seeing what people bring in the matches my for-this-moment thoughts are that the power draw system only works if the penalties are increased dramatically or if it is stacked upon the existing ghost heat system.

- Additionally I feel that the effect of the weapon cooldown modules become close to not noticable. These tweaks also need to be worked over or removed

- Behold of the poptarts... removing the gauss chargeup will result in massive pinpoint long range gauss+2erppc snipers that give a **** about energy range.


Forget the Gauss. 6.7 Sec CD and 1320m max. range, 15 (12) tons 10 DMG explosion if crited is unuseable. Its a >25% increase in CD without considering the nerfed modules. The range is now below ERLL and ERPPC range. It can explode. Lasers for the same weight do double the DMG.

But the most importantly it takes the fun away of planning a shot and seeing it happen after u relase the charge.
If this goes live i will stop playing until its back agian. This game has so manny crappy errors and things that doent work. Without the reward of shot comming together the way you planned it, its over for me. Its all that keeps me in this game atm.

#6 Aylek

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 08:37 AM

View PostCyrilis, on 19 August 2016 - 01:02 AM, said:


- Behold of the poptarts... removing the gauss chargeup will result in massive pinpoint long range gauss+2erppc snipers that give a **** about energy range.


2x ERPPC + Gauss Dragon Slayer is still far too hot while delivering pretty unimpressive damage.

#7 Sereglach

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 08:43 AM

View PostJohnny Z, on 19 August 2016 - 12:35 AM, said:

Nice but a bit much to read considering how much feedback is being communicated.

It's PTS feedback. Giving as detailed of feedback as possible, with logical reasoning and well articulated points, helps PGI more. Besides, a well articulated point will garner more favorable attention than what a few other people are saying (for example: "Gauss change suxx . . . fix it").

View PostExAstra, on 19 August 2016 - 12:44 AM, said:

I quite like/agree with these particular points. Make using multiple Gauss rifles at the same time an important decision to make, not a no brainer.

Agreed, entirely; and that's the exact logic behind the suggested change. Let people bring what they want, but make them think really hard before they hit the Alpha Strike button.

View PostExAstra, on 19 August 2016 - 12:44 AM, said:

As for the Streaks, though. Did anyone actually use cSSRM2s? I know 2s are all the IS has so you're stuck, but I don't think I've ever seen a cSSRM2 ever.

It's not quite as pertinent for the CSSRM/2 as it is the IS version, since the Clan version almost never sees any use. However, they share the exact same cooldown, so if the tech level is advanced we can surmise that the IS versions of the 4's and 6's will have the same cooldowns as the clan versions. Thusly, it'd be better to just fix it now; and besides, the cooldowns for these systems are so absurd that, by themselves, heat and energy draw is a non-issue for them in this state.

View PostCyrilis, on 19 August 2016 - 01:02 AM, said:

absolutely. The effect is neglegilbe at the moment. Additionally, through the removal of ghost heat, I think (only at th moment with the current PTS values!) Massive alpha laser vomit build are favored massively. I can alpha my NVA-PRIME 9 times (!) befor getting destroyed).

- after the first testing, and seeing what people bring in the matches my for-this-moment thoughts are that the power draw system only works if the penalties are increased dramatically or if it is stacked upon the existing ghost heat system.

Good to see we're in agreement over this. The system as it stands right now works amazingly well (from the programming and implementation side of things), but the penalties need to be much more stark to have the desired effect.

View PostCyrilis, on 19 August 2016 - 01:02 AM, said:

- Additionally I feel that the effect of the weapon cooldown modules become close to not noticable. These tweaks also need to be worked over or removed

They still feel quite noticeable when comparing with/without cooldowns. However, the kicker to remember is that there was a global 15% cooldown increase and then they nerfed the module by 50% (max 10% to max 5%) on top of it. Thusly, using the weapon with a cooldown module now is about like using the weapon without any module from the current live servers.

View PostCyrilis, on 19 August 2016 - 01:02 AM, said:

- Behold of the poptarts... removing the gauss chargeup will result in massive pinpoint long range gauss+2erppc snipers that give a **** about energy range.

Honestly, with Jump Jet shake and the absolutely horrid state of JJ's overall, if someone can poptart with this then more power to them. On the other hand, making the heat penalties more aggressive (like I outline above), and someone will think really hard before firing a volley of PPC's and Gauss Rifles all at once. Even if they fix JJs and allow mechs to actually jump again, those aggressive heat penalties would still prevent high-alpha poptarting . . . but some poptarting with one or two weapons at a time could come back; and I'm not averse to that.

View PostCara Carcass, on 19 August 2016 - 04:24 AM, said:

Forget the Gauss. 6.7 Sec CD and 1320m max. range, 15 (12) tons 10 DMG explosion if crited is unuseable. Its a >25% increase in CD without considering the nerfed modules. The range is now below ERLL and ERPPC range. It can explode. Lasers for the same weight do double the DMG.

But the most importantly it takes the fun away of planning a shot and seeing it happen after u relase the charge.
If this goes live i will stop playing until its back agian. This game has so manny crappy errors and things that doent work. Without the reward of shot comming together the way you planned it, its over for me. Its all that keeps me in this game atm.

Well, for one the Gauss charge mechanic is a relatively new thing in the life of MWO; and was originally only meant to desync Gauss and PPCs from being spammed together. I'm sorry that you've enjoyed it so much, while it was around, and are now seeing it leave. Personally I don't think it takes much away from the satisfaction of lining up a shot, but to each their own.

Now as to your other points, the cooldown isn't really a nerf because the old charge time was basically just shoved into the cooldown in order to normalize the DPS output. It equates to what is basically a nil change.

As far as range goes the Gauss Rifle has always been outranged by the ERPPC in lore, and will remain as such until there is the IS Light Gauss (which only does 8 damage but reaches even further than an AC/2). The ERLL vs. Gauss has always been comparable, but the ERLL has a very slightly shorter range for IS and modestly longer range for Clan . . . you can thank PGI balancing for the current range conundrums. I can only hope there'll be more numbers tuning as time goes by.

The Gauss Rifle itself explodes but the ammunition doesn't. On the other hand, every other ammunition based weapon in the game also has the risk of their ammo exploding for MUCH more damage than 10 points (enough to easily destroy parts the mech in most cases -or possibly the entire mech-, depending on remaining ammunition). That is part of the risk of utilizing those weapons over energy weapons. However the way you present your case is somewhat disingenuous, because you don't highlight the fact that every other ammunition based system has its handicaps and ammo-explosion risks.

Granted, I'll give you that compared to energy weapons the ammo-dependent systems need some help, but I think making the energy overdraw penalties much more aggressive will help fix that.

Edited by Sereglach, 19 August 2016 - 08:58 PM.


#8 EvilCow

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 08:48 AM

Perhaps more penalties should be added when going in negative energy zone. For example increased cooldown for all weapons, reduced speed and agility, loss of sensors/ECM.

#9 Sereglach

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 08:53 AM

View PostEvilCow, on 19 August 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

Perhaps more penalties should be added when going in negative energy zone. For example increased cooldown for all weapons, reduced speed and agility, loss of sensors/ECM.

Funny enough, the kinds of penalties you're talking about fall more in line with the Battletech Tabletop version of the heat scale. That heat scale had accuracy penalties, reduced speed and agility, and even the chance to cook-off your ammunition as you went too high up the heat scale.

Personally, with the current system and fitting into the playstyle of MWO (no MechWarrior game, ever, had a heat scale reminiscent of TT), I think just making the penalties more aggressive with 1.0 Heat penalty per 1.0 Energy overdraw will really help get the job done.

#10 Sereglach

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 02:56 PM

After thinking about it and looking at notes, more, I think an addition I'd make to the notes above is for SRM's of any type (not so much LRM's, because they have indirect fire capabilities and extensive range) to have an energy value akin to the recommendations for LBX autocannons and set it at a .5 energy draw to damage ratio. These weapons spread damage a great deal (streaks even more so than standard), have limited range, and cannot indirectly fire, which gives them quite a handicap compared to other weapon systems.

Again, for a first round of implementation and testing it's not bad, but there is a lot that can be done to make the system actually an amazing addition to MWO and a replacement to Ghost Heat that's leaps and bounds better in quality.

#11 50 50

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 08:12 PM

Not sure the heat penalty you have suggested for the Gauss is an ideal solution.
The heat the weapon generates is minimal so to suddenly have it spike to do massive heat above normal and shut the mech down seems a brutal change to the weapon.

I do agree that there shouldn't be a limit on the number of Gauss we can equip, but I think that has just been done for this iteration of testing because people would flock to the weapon just because it gives the competitive edge.... in a test server.... where winning a match means nothing. It may also have been changed just so it conforms with the other weapons for testing but it may need something a bit unique.

What is interesting with this system is that it does allow weapons to be balanced using new variables and because the Gauss is a rather unique weapon given it's high damage, long range, low heat... we can now use one of the energy variables to balance things while not drastically altering the other values and you did touch on that with the amount of energy the weapon uses.

The new aspects that can be added/adjusted with this system are:
  • Total energy pool.
  • Refill rate.
  • Weapon energy draw.
Gauss and other high end energy weapons might need some additional effects.

#12 Sereglach

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 08:47 PM

View Post50 50, on 19 August 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

*snip*


I understand your post, but what I don't get is why you're disagreeing with me. I'm saying that you'd set the Gauss to have a very high energy draw on it . . . 2.0 Energy Draw per 1.0 Damage (30 Energy per Gauss). Fired alone or in sequential fashion (as outlined in the OP) it'd be perfectly fine and function as normal. Fire a bunch together and/or fire it with a bunch of other weapons in a high PPFLD Alpha -for example- and you're going to incur a higher heat penalty because it's a huge energy vacuum.

I'm not saying to suddenly give the Gauss Rifle a massive pile of heat, I'm saying to give it a massive energy draw which would cause heat penalties (potentially large ones) if it's shot with other weapons, especially other high energy draw weapons like other Gauss Rifles. If they do that then they wouldn't need to incur a 2 Gauss Limit, just as I outlined above.

Edited by Sereglach, 19 August 2016 - 08:48 PM.


#13 SockSlayer

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 07:44 PM

Would actually like flamers back to the way they were before...





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