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Assaults Need A Bigger Cap


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#21 kapusta11

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:07 AM

View PostSavage Wolf, on 19 August 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:


Why on earth do actively want the light class to be inferior to the assault class. Then why would we ever pick them? Makes no sense in an online game.


You must understand that people who suggest that lights should be trash don't pilot them, they expect someone else to do it.

#22 pyrocomp

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:13 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 19 August 2016 - 05:03 AM, said:

This.

But the assaultbros will tell you that lights are just supposed to cap bases, harass enemy mechs (i.e. do 50 damage in a match) and scout the enemy team (i.e. watch the fight).

Nope, lights in packs should rip any staggering, badly positioned or flanking mech, enemy lights, and lights are free to finish whatever tries to disengage from the battle or get into the battle or help in battle. They should do whatever they want, but I want some times more logical moves from fast mechs, like caping in your example. Really, assaults running to cap are a strange thing while lights go engage opfor face-to-face. Lights are not limited, but they have speed and some tasks are siplier in lights. Somehow there is less problems with 'assaults should soak damage' statement, while it is illogical in terms of the game.

#23 Savage Wolf

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:13 AM

View Postpyrocomp, on 19 August 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

The reasons are in ther second and in the last sentences, but anyway. People expect the assaults to be really mean (all those guns on that wunderwaffle almost to gundam level). Thus they expect that the game is not scissors-rock-paper type but that assault is better that any other mech, but a pair of mechs can freely be stronger. Advantage in number somehow goes smoothly in humand minds. Not sure it is not taken from everyday experience, but looks so. So this gives us all those 'lights are OP' threads. And this scares people away from lights before they try it, but when they try.... So mostly the game need to create impression that assaults are mean and bad and no more than this.


True, and one of the worst offenders is actually the C-bill costs of assaults. Naturally if they cost more they should be better, right? And really the only reason why this is so is lore. All mechs should cost about the same because they should be equally relevant on the battlefield (of course meta says otherwise, but it shows intent).

#24 pyrocomp

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:21 AM

View PostSavage Wolf, on 19 August 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:


True, and one of the worst offenders is actually the C-bill costs of assaults. Naturally if they cost more they should be better, right? And really the only reason why this is so is lore. All mechs should cost about the same because they should be equally relevant on the battlefield (of course meta says otherwise, but it shows intent).

Not sure upin those as Clan mechs prices do keep some pressure on their population in game. And whe the mech is out for C-bills there is not that spike in its use (no more than 3-5 per match). With lowering prices Kodiacs might spawn KDK-only matches upon C-bills release.

#25 C E Dwyer

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:21 AM

View PostXetelian, on 18 August 2016 - 10:48 PM, said:

Just wanted to drop my 2cents

Assaults weren't the outlier in the too big of an alpha boat and 30 points isn't even close to enough for an AS7 or DWF

Lights 20-30
Mediums 25-35
Heavies 30-40
Assaults 40-50

4 SRM6s is 51 points of damage and short range and spread out and really hot already

AS7-S

This mech can't even alternate its fire between its two heavy hitting weapons

BOAR'S HEAD

This mech can't fire all its pulse lasers


These are 100 tonners, they should be the highest damage available

It feels like 30 damage is just too low for assaults and doesn't even effect most lights which is fine by itself but not great when you consider all the other weights

I'm sorry but you can fire all your weapons you can do a full alpha of both mechs on Terra therma, so your statement is wrong.

On Terra Therma you can alpha the boars head twice, it will shut down for half a second, with a slight discolouration of the CT internals.

An S build I use which is hotter than the meta build because I won't be without arm mounts for the removal of UAV's which is 4 ML's 4Asrm x4 and an Ac20, you can also alpha once in terra therma lava without shutting down though it wil bring you up to 96%

#26 Savage Wolf

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:23 AM

View Postpyrocomp, on 19 August 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

Nope, lights in packs should rip any staggering, badly positioned or flanking mech, enemy lights, and lights are free to finish whatever tries to disengage from the battle or get into the battle or help in battle. They should do whatever they want, but I want some times more logical moves from fast mechs, like caping in your example. Really, assaults running to cap are a strange thing while lights go engage opfor face-to-face. Lights are not limited, but they have speed and some tasks are siplier in lights. Somehow there is less problems with 'assaults should soak damage' statement, while it is illogical in terms of the game.


So it's okay that lights are inferior because we just need two then? What part about 12v12 don't you understand? We cannot swap out one assault for two lights. It's either one light or one assault. What do you choose? What, the better option? Always? Who would have thought?
And even if we could who actually wants to play a class where you are so irrelevant that there needs to be two of you to keep up.

If you want lights to do the objectives in this game we first need those objectives to actually matter. It's still four variants of skirmish and that means damage is king. If you can't deal your share of damage you are waste of tonnage. Also if you ever played lights you know you never stand still. What do you do on objectives? Stand still. The ideal cappers are usually heavies, but they too are too busy dealing damage.

#27 Savage Wolf

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:29 AM

View Postpyrocomp, on 19 August 2016 - 05:21 AM, said:

Not sure upin those as Clan mechs prices do keep some pressure on their population in game. And whe the mech is out for C-bills there is not that spike in its use (no more than 3-5 per match). With lowering prices Kodiacs might spawn KDK-only matches upon C-bills release.

But eventually you get the c-bills. I have 81 mechs, getting mechs is not a damn problem. If I wanted to ride the meta, I easily could. C-bills don't prevent that. You can't balance or pressure anything via c-bills for more than a few days. The Timberwolf was meta, but expensive and they where everywhere. The price changed nothing.

The fact that there has never been a light or medium mech meta kinda shows that if anything, they need some love.

#28 Alistair Winter

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:36 AM

View Postpyrocomp, on 19 August 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

Nope, lights in packs

What packs? Light mechs are the least popular mechs in the game. Most matches in QP have 1 light mech per team, if that. If you get 2 light mechs, one of them is likely to be a Kit Fox or Adder or some other slow piece of sh*t that can't keep up anyway. Light mech wolf packs went extinct a long time ago.

View Postpyrocomp, on 19 August 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

should rip any staggering, badly positioned or flanking mech,

So basically wait for the real heroes to do the damage, or go out and hunt bad players that are out of position? And if the enemy team doesn't have lone mechs that are easy pickings, you're screwed?

View Postpyrocomp, on 19 August 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

They should do whatever they want, but I want some times more logical moves from fast mechs, like caping in your example.

Capping means standing still on a square. That's not fun for anybody. It's one of the many reasons why Conquest is basically Team Deathmatch, and people are constantly begging light mechs to cap or defend base. It's boring.

View Postpyrocomp, on 19 August 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

Really, assaults running to cap are a strange thing while lights go engage opfor face-to-face. Lights are not limited, but they have speed and some tasks are siplier in lights. Somehow there is less problems with 'assaults should soak damage' statement, while it is illogical in terms of the game.

Speed isn't worth sh*t when 35 ton light mechs are big enough to easily get demolished by heavy mechs with twice the firepower anyway. Hell, many heavy mechs have more structure quirks than the best light mechs anyway. Not to mention that the speed advantage isn't really that big, now that 90 kph is basically the norm for heavy mechs. Good luck trying to completely outmaneuver a group of Timber Wolves and Stormcrows on these tiny maps.

#29 pyrocomp

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:36 AM

View PostSavage Wolf, on 19 August 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:


So it's okay that lights are inferior because we just need two then? What part about 12v12 don't you understand? We cannot swap out one assault for two lights. It's either one light or one assault. What do you choose? What, the better option? Always? Who would have thought?
And even if we could who actually wants to play a class where you are so irrelevant that there needs to be two of you to keep up.

If you want lights to do the objectives in this game we first need those objectives to actually matter. It's still four variants of skirmish and that means damage is king. If you can't deal your share of damage you are waste of tonnage. Also if you ever played lights you know you never stand still. What do you do on objectives? Stand still. The ideal cappers are usually heavies, but they too are too busy dealing damage.

Yeah, I want light to do objectives if I will have to soak damage while they will stand behind. If I go capping at 50 kmph, then should be good at brinning down opfor. The situation is that it is a team and team has to do this and that. So you main point is invalid.
And I do not want to be the only light in a team (happens quite often). So, I get how that looks from both ends.

And again, as you missed it. People go with an idea of an assault being ultimate power, but pair of lights is ok to be stronger. For me lights can do whatever they want in a game (it is a game), but do not expect me in return to do tricks for their sole benefit like 'why you were not pushing and why you are not running in that firing line for me to take a hot or two'. Really, been there.

#30 Fox the Apprentice

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:45 AM

View PostSavage Wolf, on 19 August 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

People still forget that this in an online multiplayer game. Teams are not limited by C-bills in what they bring and you are not playing the commander, you are playing a pilot. If we want this game to be fun for everyone, Assault can't be more powerful than other weight classes. So if lights can compete with the other weight classes it's on point, because everyone needs a chance to contribute and this game is primarily about dealing damage.


By this logic, you need to cap light speed to ~60 KPH.
"If we want this game to be fun for everyone, Lights can't be more speedy than other weight classes. So if lights can compete with the other weight classes it's on point, because everyone needs a chance to contribute and this game is primarily about dealing damage while being fast enough to not take it back."

Note that I don't believe either of these!!!
I was just making the point that your logic doesn't stand. Assaults and Lights are both less favored - I mostly see heavies in-game (with the exception of events). That said, I like playing heavy, so maybe I'm part of the problem ;)

#31 pyrocomp

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:49 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 19 August 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

What packs? Light mechs are the least popular mechs in the game. Most matches in QP have 1 light mech per team, if that. If you get 2 light mechs, one of them is likely to be a Kit Fox or Adder or some other slow piece of sh*t that can't keep up anyway. Light mech wolf packs went extinct a long time ago.

Yes, I want more lights in a team not to be the only one. It is sad to see low lights population. But lights packs are not extinct, mind you, I got from them quite often not to believe than I'm safe in a DWF while lumbering somwhere.

View PostAlistair Winter, on 19 August 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

So basically wait for the real heroes to do the damage, or go out and hunt bad players that are out of position? And if the enemy team doesn't have lone mechs that are easy pickings, you're screwed?

What heroes? Deathball is not anything good. And a good team usually have more than this. I've seen how a good light pilot rip the flank of a firing line. One by one. They were not lone. So, while I get what you are trying to say, you are the same time imply that I have a notion 'usless junk' towards light or any other mech no capable of 70+ alpha and also trying to makeme say that there is bad way to fight and a good way. That's rude.
Good positioned snipper of spotter can wreck chaos on enemy team on most of the maps. Those 'heroes' rushing headlong into firing lines... that's stupidity and a 'good' game. So, you are wrong here in many aspects.

View PostAlistair Winter, on 19 August 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

Capping means standing still on a square. That's not fun for anybody. It's one of the many reasons why Conquest is basically Team Deathmatch, and people are constantly begging light mechs to cap or defend base. It's boring.

Yes, it's boring. And I play lights, so I have my fun out of it. Pulled not a single game via cap. Best thing was 10-2 win in the old assault. Anyway, I have some different view on capping and don't mind doing so when I play light.

View PostAlistair Winter, on 19 August 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

Speed isn't worth sh*t when 35 ton light mechs are big enough to easily get demolished by heavy mechs with twice the firepower anyway. Hell, many heavy mechs have more structure quirks than the best light mechs anyway. Not to mention that the speed advantage isn't really that big, now that 90 kph is basically the norm for heavy mechs. Good luck trying to completely outmaneuver a group of Timber Wolves and Stormcrows on these tiny maps.

That balance and I do not know what to say other than that you can run away from Timbers if you are not the LMS. Strormcrows are different, but they should be that way. Anyway, speed in terms of manuvering and lending some help was brought up, not the speed as combat advantage or how to translate extra 10 kmph into balanced firepower trade-off.

#32 Waldwolf634

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:50 AM

Tested my Dire with this system, not a big problem. When 2-4ppc and twin-gaus are raining from one Assault Posted Image , where should be the problem (Not my Dire serval King Crabs). The boats are still running. The Energy Cap 30 is good and enough. The Energy Recharge should be a little lower and Energy adjustment to some weapons (only my impression).Posted Image

#33 Savage Wolf

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:51 AM

View Postpyrocomp, on 19 August 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

Yeah, I want light to do objectives if I will have to soak damage while they will stand behind. If I go capping at 50 kmph, then should be good at brinning down opfor. The situation is that it is a team and team has to do this and that. So you main point is invalid.
And I do not want to be the only light in a team (happens quite often). So, I get how that looks from both ends.

And again, as you missed it. People go with an idea of an assault being ultimate power, but pair of lights is ok to be stronger. For me lights can do whatever they want in a game (it is a game), but do not expect me in return to do tricks for their sole benefit like 'why you were not pushing and why you are not running in that firing line for me to take a hot or two'. Really, been there.

If you are taking hits intentionally then you are doing it wrong. Assaults are not tanks in this game, that role don't exists. There is the spearhead which is similar but, not the same. And yes, it's a team game, so who would we want a member that can't contibute as much as the rest based on the weight class? You are the only light mech in that match because you insist that light mechs be a bad choice. So all you will achieve is that soon, there will be none. And only assaults.
Two light mechs in a match could have been two assaults. As long as people think this, then we have a problem.

And again, why do you want to throw balance out the window because of people's false expectations? You can't balance a game that way. Next thing I assume is that you also want the PPC to be OP because people expect it to be?

#34 pyrocomp

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 06:00 AM

View PostSavage Wolf, on 19 August 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

If you are taking hits intentionally then you are doing it wrong. Assaults are not tanks in this game, that role don't exists. There is the spearhead which is similar but, not the same. And yes, it's a team game, so who would we want a member that can't contibute as much as the rest based on the weight class? You are the only light mech in that match because you insist that light mechs be a bad choice. So all you will achieve is that soon, there will be none. And only assaults.
Two light mechs in a match could have been two assaults. As long as people think this, then we have a problem.

And again, why do you want to throw balance out the window because of people's false expectations? You can't balance a game that way. Next thing I assume is that you also want the PPC to be OP because people expect it to be?

I do not insist on light beeing bad. You insist that I say that they are. That's two different things. And, to be honest, I've seen good light pilots, and they contributed more than other in terms of damage also. But that contribution wasn't frontal attack. It was scouting, but not as you think it is. A light peeking around the conner of the assault really allows that assault no to come face to face with a firing line, provide some distraction if there are not many mechs there and, after said assault engages said light do quite a damage (if not more). Both in pair benefi from that and both roles are fun. So, to stop this faster. I do not want light to differently skinned timbers. What do you want lights to be?

#35 FrozenAnt

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 06:00 AM

I'm glad to see this PTS is bringing the underlying problem to light. The power draw system is not needed if we give lights/mediums other objectives besides just brawling. A light should not be able to go 1v1 with an assault, but because of the way to game is structured they HAVE to. There is no other option. In the current game you have to make a light as viable as an assault.

If the maps where bigger, and there was objective based gameplay. You could let the assaults fight assaults and light's fight lights. No need to limit alphas across all weight classes. You would only need to balance with-in a weight class.

Anyway, back to the task at hand. What kind of tweaks can you guys suggest to make this power draw thing worth it?

#36 Savage Wolf

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 06:01 AM

View PostFox the Apprentice, on 19 August 2016 - 05:45 AM, said:


By this logic, you need to cap light speed to ~60 KPH.
"If we want this game to be fun for everyone, Lights can't be more speedy than other weight classes. So if lights can compete with the other weight classes it's on point, because everyone needs a chance to contribute and this game is primarily about dealing damage while being fast enough to not take it back."

Note that I don't believe either of these!!!
I was just making the point that your logic doesn't stand. Assaults and Lights are both less favored - I mostly see heavies in-game (with the exception of events). That said, I like playing heavy, so maybe I'm part of the problem Posted Image


I'm not talking about making them the same. I'm talking about them being equally important. In MMOs the healer, the tank and the striker do very different things, but are all important. It's easier in MMOs because they cannot replace eachother.
In MWO we unfortunately primarily deal damage and everyone can do that. Lights are super fast, but it's more for survival than a necesity. A medium can also cap. And capping is not that essential often (or even frowned upon).

So no, I don't want all mechs to be the same. I just want them all be equally good at contributing to victory.

Also I compared lights and assault because that's the topic even though I agree that heavies are currently king. And pyrocomp apparently wants assaults to be king. Not just on par with heavies, no just intentionally OP. And then opposite for lights.

#37 Savage Wolf

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 06:13 AM

View Postpyrocomp, on 19 August 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

I do not insist on light beeing bad. You insist that I say that they are. That's two different things. And, to be honest, I've seen good light pilots, and they contributed more than other in terms of damage also. But that contribution wasn't frontal attack. It was scouting, but not as you think it is. A light peeking around the conner of the assault really allows that assault no to come face to face with a firing line, provide some distraction if there are not many mechs there and, after said assault engages said light do quite a damage (if not more). Both in pair benefi from that and both roles are fun. So, to stop this faster. I do not want light to differently skinned timbers. What do you want lights to be?


You insist that a light should not be able to take down an assault 1v1. That's insisting that lights be bad, because that's what a light needs to do.

With the game as it currently is I want lights to be able to compete with all the other classes so that you would actually wont mind have 4 of them on your team. And for that to happen they need to deal damage and be able to take down mechs of other weight classes. Obviously their strength is speed and not high DPS, but it still needs to be high enough. And since a good light never stands still, they are actually the weight class that needs a proportinately high alpha to it's weight to be able to do it's thing. So 30 is fine for them. They just need to hit and run with those alphas.

Ideally the game was changed drastically to have actual worthwhile objectives which lights would sometimes be the ideal candidate to perform and maybe even have gameplay where information warfare was a thing. But that is not the game we have so until then, give the lights the damage they need.

#38 Snowbluff

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 06:21 AM

View PostSader325, on 19 August 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

Tie Power to Engine.

I agree. Since it's energy draw, and it's based on the safe energy excesses of the engine, more powerful engines should have more energy available.

#39 pyrocomp

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 06:24 AM

View PostSavage Wolf, on 19 August 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:

You insist that a light should not be able to take down an assault 1v1. That's insisting that lights be bad, because that's what a light needs to do.

No. Original post:

Quote

Well, while this is true then a heat cap might be tinkered with a little. To allow some balm on assault pilots' wounds left by those pesky lights. Or in terms that a single light should not be able to bring down and assault in 1 on 1 fight unless one of two conditions are met: 1) assault pilot is a potato, 2) light pilot is reaaly good. A pair of lights should be dangerous to any mech (and they are now). This should help stop stream of 'lights a OP' statements.

This was posted in a thread entitled 'assaults need a bigger cap' with a distinctive notion that I' against that and all for lowering energy limit firther. And the post istelf does contain one sentence (I marked it for you) that... Do you really that serious?
Ok, that was a joke. The only mechs that deserve lower heat cap (not counting blanket lowering for all the mechs to try) are ACH. And that lowering should be aroun 1-2 extra points to bring it closer to other lights. Then, buff all lights if needed. If you insist that strong objectives are needed for light to be a choise and a good mech then it is you, not I, who state that those are bad ones. Really, I'm goo with current objectives and ways to play lights but miss the population badly. To the point to ask instill 3/3/3/3 again. Or just 3/whatever/whatever/whatever.
And in the post that triggered the most responce from you read 'should' in the first sentence as 'be able', not 'must'. A pair of lights have problems against various splat builds incarnations.

View PostSnowbluff, on 19 August 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

I agree. Since it's energy draw, and it's based on the safe energy excesses of the engine, more powerful engines should have more energy available.

With bigger engine you already get better cooling (more heatsinks), better speed, better agilty and you want to get even more firepower? How about no?

#40 Savage Wolf

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 06:24 AM

View PostSnowbluff, on 19 August 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

I agree. Since it's energy draw, and it's based on the safe energy excesses of the engine, more powerful engines should have more energy available.


What is it with people trying to justify bad game mechanics with scifi logic. Ideally they went hand in hand, but battletech wasn't built for this, so we can't. So we have to choose either good game play or sci-fi logic. I choose game play.





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