91 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

ScarecrowES, on 19 August 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

Fallacy. 6xERSL vs 3xISLPL. both 30 damage - 18 heat vs 21. 200m vs 365m. 3 tons vs 21 tons. Within the effective range of the shorter range system, both systems work equally - slight heat advantage to the smalls. For a massive investment of tonnage, you get a bit of extra range in the larger one. Not even double the range for 7 times the tonnage.

"Night and day better?" No. LPLs have a massive price for a slight range advantage. That's it.

Yeo was probably referring to the actual Small Laser, not the Clan ER Small Laser.

They're not the same thing.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 19 August 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

Yeo was probably referring to the actual Small Laser, not the Clan ER Small Laser.

They're not the same thing.

Originally, yes, but after taking a step back to think about it, see below.

ScarecrowES, on 19 August 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

Fallacy. 6xERSL vs 3xISLPL. both 30 damage - 18 heat vs 21. 200m vs 365m. 3 tons vs 21 tons. Within the effective range of the shorter range system, both systems work equally - slight heat advantage to the smalls. For a massive investment of tonnage, you get a bit of extra range in the larger one. Not even double the range for 7 times the tonnage.

"Night and day better?" No. LPLs have a massive price for a slight range advantage. That's it.

cER SL: only used when you can bring 12 or have no other options (i.e. Lights...like I said above), but still usually swapped for cSPL anyway. Also, the LPL has the burn-time advantage, making it a better close-combat weapon. Finally, 165 m is non-trivial when you consider the module bumps it to 401 m and that the LPL has double range while the cERSL is only 1.7x.

cSPL: in a good place, I'll give you this one.

isSPL: only used on two 'Mechs (LCT-1E, FS9-A), neither of which is very good.

isSL: awful, not good enough to be used on anything even when derping around unless you feel especially troll-y.

TL;DR: Sure, they are fine if you completely ignore the context of the rest of the game.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 19 August 2016 - 06:16 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 August 2016 - 06:15 PM, said:

Originally, yes, but after taking a step back to think about it, see below.



cER SL: only used when you can bring 12 or have no other options (i.e. Lights...like I said above), but still usually swapped for cSPL anyway. Also, the LPL has the burn-time advantage, making it a better close-combat weapon. Finally, 165 m is non-trivial when you consider the module bumps it to 401 m and that the LPL has double range while the cERSL is only 1.7x.

cSPL: in a good place, I'll give you this one.

isSPL: only used on two 'Mechs (LCT-1E, FS9-A), neither of which is very good.

isSL: awful, not good enough to be used on anything even when derping around unless you feel especially troll-y.

TL;DR: Sure, they are fine if you completely ignore the context of the rest of the game.

Well, in fairness, the IS SL and SPL have been awful pretty much forever. Could something be done for these weapons to buff them directly without changing the way they work in ED. Would that be a preferable option? Personally, I don't tend to think that it would be much concern if IS smalls received a direct buff, being the weakest weapon you can bring to a fight. Closer parity with Clan smalls is probably a good idea. I don't know that this would hurt balance. Bump the IS SL up to say... 185m? SPL to 160? I'm not even directly opposed to giving them clan ranges, to be honest.

[FupDup]

ScarecrowES, on 19 August 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

Could something be done for these weapons to buff them directly without changing the way they work in ED.

Yes.

One of the common ideas is cooldown to let them put out a bit more Dee Pee Ess.

Another option is reducing heat (mostly IS side) to give them a niche as a backup energy weapon that won't heat you up (would combo great with the cooldown buff).

Duration could maybe be bumped down a little bit, especially for the vanilla SL.

I personally don't favor range buffs because that starts to encroach upon MPL/ML territory. I'd make an exception for the Clam ERSL though, having its old 2x max range back would be nice.

Edited by FupDup, 19 August 2016 - 06:32 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

FupDup, on 19 August 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

Yes.

One of the common ideas is cooldown to let them put out a bit more Dee Pee Ess.

Another option is reducing heat (mostly IS side) to give them a niche as a backup energy weapon that won't heat you up (would combo great with the cooldown buff).

Duration could maybe be bumped down a little bit, especially for the vanilla SL.

I personally don't favor range buffs because that starts to encroach upon MPL/ML territory. I'd make an exception for the Clam ERSL though, having its old 2x max range back would be nice.

I'm just inclined to think this one is not the fault of ED... all it's concerned about is what kind of damage you're putting out... it's not trying to balance what you're using to do it, nor should it be used for that purpose explicitly. Perhaps if less-than-stellar weapons like the IS smalls suffer even more under ED than in the live game, PGI could be convinced to re-evaluate their stats.

[FupDup]

ScarecrowES, on 19 August 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

I'm just inclined to think this one is not the fault of ED...

Correct. Small Lazors have been poo poo long before ED.

The reason people are suggesting to tweak SL's relationship with ED is that Pea Gee Eye doesn't seem to care about directly adjusting the weapon stats. If Pea Gee Eye did decide to buff their normal stats, then making special ED rules for them would not be necessary.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Here's my question... why is it apparently so hard to limit things to something that...oh I don't know, essentially makes sense?

4mlas firing together makes sense, hell even 4mpulse I can see, 2LL firing together I can totally understand, same with LPL, I'd argue even 2PPC makes sense... But it's when you start going above those numbers that I start raising eyebrows... sure some mechs can handle that heat, but are they really ment to?

For Example, take a look at say, the Warhammer 6R. 6E 2B 1M 1AMS for hardpoints. It's default configuration is 2ppc 2Mlas 2Slas 2mg 1SRM6.

This was always a mech that made the most sense to me so far as how it's weaponry is set up. In it's basic, non-modified configuration it carries 18 single heatsinks. Meaning it can fire it's PPC's together a couple of times without incuring any serious heat penalties, AND can easily utilize it's closer range weaponry without ever incurring heat issues.

This makes sense for the role of the mech, now I'm well aware not every stock loadout is a good example, you have a baseline via how to balance based on 1)Inteded role of a mech 2)stock loadout of a mech.

Those two basic things need to be taken into account on a mech by mech basis, for balance to ever stand a chance... The Awesome 8Q: the old mantra of 3 ppc 3ppc 2ppc should hold true [this is what tabletop players use to measure out their heat, over two turns they fire 3 ppc's, then on the 3rd turn 2 ppc, with the stock AWS-8Q, this would return a player to neutral heat by the start of the 4th turn.

There also needs to be REAL consequences for "Riding the Curve" Sluggish mech reaction, slower torso twist/leg movement, sluggish response of targeting reticle and "convergence" of arms to torso. High risk of ammo explosion at over 100% heat. Cockpit "immersion" features, such as static laden hud, shorting out console/monitors, sparks, ect.

all of these things would go a long way to helping in my opinion, but I'm likely the minority here... since I still want my sim-lite game...

[Y E O N N E]

ScarecrowES, on 19 August 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

Well, in fairness, the IS SL and SPL have been awful pretty much forever. Could something be done for these weapons to buff them directly without changing the way they work in ED. Would that be a preferable option? Personally, I don't tend to think that it would be much concern if IS smalls received a direct buff, being the weakest weapon you can bring to a fight. Closer parity with Clan smalls is probably a good idea. I don't know that this would hurt balance. Bump the IS SL up to say... 185m? SPL to 160? I'm not even directly opposed to giving them clan ranges, to be honest.

Note, I'm not blaming the Energy Draw for anything, that was not my intent. I am merely stating that allowing some of those to fire faster (isSL/SPL) and/or have better range (cERSL/isSL/isSPL) would not come even close to breaking the game because, as it stands, they are either extremely niche or completely unused. The days of being able to shove a 350-size engine into something like a Hunchback and barrel at targets with 9 of them are long gone, and that is the only thing that ever made them OP.

For the isSL specifically, it needs both range and rate of fire. 3 damage is far and away too low to be useful; you need at least 8 of them to approach decent levels, and every 'Mech that can bring 8 is way better off bringing 8 isSPL or isML instead, and for some reason the IS aren't allowed to have 'Mechs capable of boating 12-14 tiny energy weapons but the Clans are (on top of their weapon being better on an individual basis, no less). My opinion: 165-180 m and a cool-down of between 1 and 1.25 seconds would do the trick at making it minimally viable on something like a Firestarter.

[ScarecrowES]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 August 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

Note, I'm not blaming the Energy Draw for anything, that was not my intent. I am merely stating that allowing some of those to fire faster (isSL/SPL) and/or have better range (cERSL/isSL/isSPL) would not come even close to breaking the game because, as it stands, they are either extremely niche or completely unused. The days of being able to shove a 350-size engine into something like a Hunchback and barrel at targets with 9 of them are long gone, and that is the only thing that ever made them OP.

For the isSL specifically, it needs both range and rate of fire. 3 damage is far and away too low to be useful; you need at least 8 of them to approach decent levels, and every 'Mech that can bring 8 is way better off bringing 8 isSPL or isML instead, and for some reason the IS aren't allowed to have 'Mechs capable of boating 12-14 tiny energy weapons but the Clans are (on top of their weapon being better on an individual basis, no less). My opinion: 165-180 m and a cool-down of between 1 and 1.25 seconds would do the trick at making it minimally viable on something like a Firestarter.

I'm more than amenable to that.

[adamts01]

Alienized, on 19 August 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

dunno.... my victor has to alpha to be even closely useful. 1 ac20 and 2 srm6+ artemis + 2 med lasers is what it has, thats an overall whooping 55 alpha at only 270m while the ac20 has a optimal range of 364 with mods and current quirks on the 9S.
should it get the same punishment as a full laserboat that has a far wider range?

i dont know... the victor needs such alphas and not another nerf. it already is a punishment to drive most of time and more of a work than simple fun.

Most of the reason these "hard mode" mechs have a rough go is because they don't have the huge alphas that the commonly seen mechs have. If this system works as intended the Victor might be fine, as it won't need to dish out 60-80 in one salvo to be competitive.


I really wanted to see a cone of fire mechanism that bloomed the more weapons you fire at a time, the hotter you get and the faster you move. Maybe with decreasing penalties as you go lighter, so lights can still strike with their 18-30 point alphas without sitting still and being 1-shot. But, we're finally getting a big change, and it's actually being tested on pts, so I won't complain that they didn't go the rout I wanted.

[Alienized]

adamts01, on 19 August 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

Most of the reason these "hard mode" mechs have a rough go is because they don't have the huge alphas that the commonly seen mechs have. If this system works as intended the Victor might be fine, as it won't need to dish out 60-80 in one salvo to be competitive.


I really wanted to see a cone of fire mechanism that bloomed the more weapons you fire at a time, the hotter you get and the faster you move. Maybe with decreasing penalties as you go lighter, so lights can still strike with their 18-30 point alphas without sitting still and being 1-shot. But, we're finally getting a big change, and it's actually being tested on pts, so I won't complain that they didn't go the rout I wanted.

they can have some good alpha's BUT they are mostly only due to brawling and SRM's, not the range alpha's alot of other assaults can pull out. agreed, a 55 alpha isnt that massive for a assault but i sacrificed a third srm for better agility and better heat management which is what the victor always needed and stood for. i would love to see quirks for that so you can actually throw in a smaller XL engine and less JJ's to achieve that and install more weapons but that just wont happen.

the reason i bring this mech up is that i am just too worried that the power draw system cuts down the alpha possibility for mechs like the victor down. the highlanders i got also use srm's and that makes them more then viable at least on the pug field and defensive FP battles. a alpha limit of 30dmg to trigger the penalty system really screws such mechs and loadouts down while they are already awfully hard to play and deep down the underhive.

[adamts01]

Alienized, on 20 August 2016 - 01:25 AM, said:

a alpha limit of 30dmg to trigger the penalty system really screws such mechs and loadouts down while they are already awfully hard to play and deep down the underhive.

I think this power draw system was a bad direction to take, as I already said. But the thing about it is that all mechs are affected by it, so while your Victor is absolutely hurt with a slightly smaller alpha, I'd argue that it'll be in a better place because the mechs with monstrous alphas will take a more monstrous hit. Maybe with all alphas being more or less equal, the Victor's jets and maneuverability will make it more competitive. But yeah, I think the whole idea is just stupid, bigger mechs should bring bigger firepower, tonnage should be balanced with game modes that require different roles, or at least have resources if light mechs are going to be worse than everything else. This will only change the meta, not fix gameplay.