Jump to content

Ttk Still Too Short..still A Mindless Twitch Fest


69 replies to this topic

#1 Mavairo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 2,251 posts

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:21 AM

I had hopes, but was skeptical.
I did one match, and found it to be nearly identical to when I quit playing. Round a corner, get nearly insta gibbed.
Enemy team pushes, dead.

I think the power draw is way too generous, and the armor mechanics...well they're still non existent and this is the problem with MWO. Armor isn't HP, and it should never have been implemented as such.

#2 FupDup

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 26,888 posts
  • LocationThe Keeper of Memes

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:26 AM

View PostMavairo, on 19 August 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

and the armor mechanics...well they're still non existent and this is the problem with MWO. Armor isn't HP, and it should never have been implemented as such.

The reason that armor is the way it is in MWO is because that's the way it was in BT and previous MW games.

The fluff reason is that it's ablative armor, meaning that it's designed such that the outer layers explode outwards when damaged. This in turn deflects some of the damage away from the unit carrying that armor, at the cost of losing some of the outer armor.

Edited by FupDup, 19 August 2016 - 09:26 AM.


#3 Gas Guzzler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 14,244 posts
  • LocationCalifornia Central Coast

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:28 AM

Told you.

Without butchering the game, the best the can likely do is maintain the global cooldown nerf and raise armor values again. But even the armor isn't really necessary. Just have to think ahead, and not crest where there could be a bunch of enemies looking at you.

#4 Wintersdark

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,375 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationCalgary, AB

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:32 AM

Nobody should have expected this to result in longer TTK. There was no reason to expect that at all.

Not faster either.

All this system does is "smooths out" ghost heat, so instead of ridiculously penalizing some weapon combinations and ignoring others, everything is impacted evenly.

It's imperfect, of course, SRM's in particular need a much lower draw:damage ratio due to the strictly limited range, but all in all it's a far superior version of ghost heat.

#5 Mavairo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 2,251 posts

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:33 AM

View PostFupDup, on 19 August 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

The reason that armor is the way it is in MWO is because that's the way it was in BT and previous MW games.

The fluff reason is that it's ablative armor, meaning that it's designed such that the outer layers explode outwards when damaged. This in turn deflects some of the damage away from the unit carrying that armor, at the cost of losing some of the outer armor.


There is Reactive and Reflective armor in the BT universe, along with std armor plating. None of which however functions like what we have here.

World of Warships, sadly has far better armor mechanics than is found here. The problem is with the current armor mechanics is it's just a life bar and PGI still has no core understanding that the weapons damage values is, listed in TT is their Ten Second values..not instantaneous. So using TT armor mechanics isn't going to work.

Aiming is still too utterly perfect, dmg is still too high to quickly, and the armor mechanics are just an insult to injury.

Another band aid "Power Draw" isn't going to solve this.

#6 Gas Guzzler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 14,244 posts
  • LocationCalifornia Central Coast

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:34 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 19 August 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Nobody should have expected this to result in longer TTK. There was no reason to expect that at all.

Not faster either.

All this system does is "smooths out" ghost heat, so instead of ridiculously penalizing some weapon combinations and ignoring others, everything is impacted evenly.

It's imperfect, of course, SRM's in particular need a much lower draw:damage ratio due to the strictly limited range, but all in all it's a far superior version of ghost heat.


As long as the fix the clear variety issue without completely butchering PPCs and Gauss rifles, its tolerable.

People have been talking about stricter penalties, and if they go that route, the energy draw limit should be ~40.

#7 Wintersdark

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,375 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationCalgary, AB

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:36 AM

View PostMavairo, on 19 August 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

I had hopes, but was skeptical.
I did one match, and found it to be nearly identical to when I quit playing. Round a corner, get nearly insta gibbed.
Enemy team pushes, dead.

I think the power draw is way too generous, and the armor mechanics...well they're still non existent and this is the problem with MWO. Armor isn't HP, and it should never have been implemented as such.


As much as I'd like longer TTK myself, it's not going to happen without massive cooldown nerfs and ideally even 8v8 again.

As Gas said above, you can't really make it much longer without totally changing how the game works; it's the way it is because of the IP.

However, it's definitely not a "mindless twitch fest". I can accept "I think it should be slower" but "mindless twitch fest"? No, that's ridiculously exaggerated. It's way slower than practically every other arena PvP game out there.

#8 feeWAIVER

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,628 posts

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:38 AM

TTK was fine before, and I'm sure it's still fine now.

#9 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,496 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:38 AM

View PostMavairo, on 19 August 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

There is Reactive and Reflective armor in the BT universe

That still functions as health though, and once that health is gone no more damage reduction.....

#10 Wintersdark

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,375 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationCalgary, AB

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:38 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 19 August 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:


As long as the fix the clear variety issue without completely butchering PPCs and Gauss rifles, its tolerable.

People have been talking about stricter penalties, and if they go that route, the energy draw limit should be ~40.

Yeah, agreed.

I personally prefer lower penalties at 30, as it makes exceeding the boundary a tactical choice at run time rather than a strategic choice at mech build time. With harsher penalties at 40, you'd never want to exceed it, but as it stands it's fine to step over the line here and there.

#11 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,496 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:40 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 19 August 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

It's way slower than practically every other arena PvP game out there.

Going from Overwatch to MWO, it is insane at the difference in pacing.

View PostWintersdark, on 19 August 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

I personally prefer lower penalties at 30, as it makes exceeding the boundary a tactical choice at run time rather than a strategic choice at mech build time. With harsher penalties at 40, you'd never want to exceed it, but as it stands it's fine to step over the line here and there.

Honestly the penalty should probably increase the higher above the limit you go. Linear penalties don't really match up with the importance in increased alpha potential.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 August 2016 - 09:40 AM.


#12 Wintersdark

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,375 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationCalgary, AB

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:43 AM

View PostfeeWAIVER, on 19 August 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

TTK was fine before, and I'm sure it's still fine now.

It's largely the same, though it's hard to tell in 4v4 battles.

Cooldowns where all nerfed, so weapons cycle slower = less damage done over time = theoretically longer TTK. Alphas... Well, we were moving away from big alphas anyways, so that hasn't really changed much either, but there's few big alphas.

Typically around 30-40 points, slightly higher with spread builds.

I expect, if this were pushed as is to live, TTK would end up slightly longer than live now, but only a very little bit.

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 19 August 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Going from Overwatch to MWO, it is insane at the difference in pacing.
Yeah, I can't play overwatch at all. Too old for that now =)

Quote

Honestly the penalty should probably increase the higher above the limit you go. Linear penalties don't really match up with the importance in increased alpha potential.

Hard to say, to be honest. I wouldn't object to it personally, and it's a good thing to consider. I'd want to play on live with it to decide though. I do know that as it stands I'm firing over 30 point alphas all the time, but not a lot over - the efficiency loss hurts if you're not looking at a kill, particularly in a brawl.

With that said, I expected brawling to be rougher than it is; my Spirit Bear (ASRM, LBX20) has no issues with heat at all. Certainly wouldn't want to run a UAC20 with it anymore, but with the LBX it's fine.

#13 Bilbo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 7,864 posts
  • LocationSaline, Michigan

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:55 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 19 August 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:



As much as I'd like longer TTK myself, it's not going to happen without massive cooldown nerfs and ideally even 8v8 again.

As Gas said above, you can't really make it much longer without totally changing how the game works; it's the way it is because of the IP.

However, it's definitely not a "mindless twitch fest". I can accept "I think it should be slower" but "mindless twitch fest"? No, that's ridiculously exaggerated. It's way slower than practically every other arena PvP game out there.

Cooldown nerfs probably wouldn't be necessary if they went back to 8v8. As far as ttk goes, if this went live in its present state ttk would drop precipitously. The system right now allows for far more effective firepower with the current penalties than what is on live.

#14 YourSaviorLegion

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 418 posts
  • LocationSpace The Final Frontier

Posted 19 August 2016 - 09:59 AM

People who say TTK is too short are the same people who don't know to make use of their armor... *cough* TORSO TWIST! *cough*

#15 Gas Guzzler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 14,244 posts
  • LocationCalifornia Central Coast

Posted 19 August 2016 - 10:02 AM

View PostYourSaviorLegion, on 19 August 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

People who say TTK is too short are the same people who don't know to make use of their armor... *cough* TORSO TWIST! *cough*


Honestly... I see people who after I shoot them, take the entire cooldown of my lasers before so much as flinching. Sometimes they don't even react until the second shot, and then wonder why they are cored already... We will never have long TTK when people play like that.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 August 2016 - 10:02 AM.


#16 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,496 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 19 August 2016 - 10:05 AM

View PostBilbo, on 19 August 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

Cooldown nerfs probably wouldn't be necessary if they went back to 8v8.

They would, TTK in 8v8 isn't much different from 12v12 due to the terrain not often allowing 12 people to focus on a single mech to begin with.

#17 Mavairo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 2,251 posts

Posted 19 August 2016 - 10:06 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 19 August 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:


As much as I'd like longer TTK myself, it's not going to happen without massive cooldown nerfs and ideally even 8v8 again.

As Gas said above, you can't really make it much longer without totally changing how the game works; it's the way it is because of the IP.

However, it's definitely not a "mindless twitch fest". I can accept "I think it should be slower" but "mindless twitch fest"? No, that's ridiculously exaggerated. It's way slower than practically every other arena PvP game out there.


Doesn't mean it's suited to dozens of tons strong warmachines in gameplay speed.
I don't WANT to play another stereotypical arena shooter. There's games that do that FAR better than MWO ever could on the speedling reflex side of things.

Mechs should feel impressive, and imposing. Not like oversized humans hitting each other with RPGs at pt blank range. My bad, a poor imitation on that, because they lack the agility that other games which feature that very thing, have.

It's not an exaggeration when TTK is still in the Seconds Range, more befitting Halo, or Doom than a game about hulking warmachines.

Twisting doesn't matter when you are taking an AC40 to the face, the side.
I know how to twist armor.

Look you like drunken crack speed shooters. That's fine.. but I don't, and the devs said they wanted to lengthen TTK....this isn't doing that.

Edited by Mavairo, 19 August 2016 - 10:07 AM.


#18 Fluffy the Gryphon

    Rookie

  • The Star
  • The Star
  • 1 posts

Posted 19 August 2016 - 10:07 AM

I feel that properly adding in a non-instant weapons convergence system could solve a lot of these problems. The poptarting could be solved simply by making the jumpjet system more powerful and actually launch mechs in a specific direction... rather than anemically breezing them into the air with only their ground momentum to control the direction.

#19 Vincent Quatermain

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Fury
  • 193 posts

Posted 19 August 2016 - 10:18 AM

View PostFluffy the Gryphon, on 19 August 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

I feel that properly adding in a non-instant weapons convergence system could solve a lot of these problems. The poptarting could be solved simply by making the jumpjet system more powerful and actually launch mechs in a specific direction... rather than anemically breezing them into the air with only their ground momentum to control the direction.


Oh god, convergence again? Yes, let's try and balance this game by adding a mechanic that will be confusing to most players and will vastly increase the number of hit registry bugs. That will do wonders for player population. A thousand times no.

#20 SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • 879 posts
  • LocationNiemalsland

Posted 19 August 2016 - 10:21 AM

didnt played on the pts but what comes into my mind is:
Do i have to rebuild all my 73 mechs now?!
The draw system is insanely complex.With ghost heat all i had to do is keep in
mind how many weapons of the same type i coud fire simultainesly to not trigger a penalty.
With the new system i woud have to keep in mind all the damage values for the weapons,
the result of fireing different weapon types mixed while also keeping the hud in view
with 3 different indicators alone for power draw the whole time to be on the safe side.
I am definitly not a whiner or a person who denies change in general but this
change is extremely massive with impact to everything i do and have done in this game.
I really coud imagine that this woud drive people off MWO, old players like new players.
You really have to look at the fact that the players getting used to a core game
furthermore mastering it.Changing this then suddenly 100% is a no-go, in every game.
To be honest i never had such a situation in any game i played so far.
Its like WOWS woud switch to 16th century naval combat with 1st person boarding.
I had litteraly to start from scratch for what benefit?

Edited by SHRedo, 19 August 2016 - 10:25 AM.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users