69 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

YourSaviorLegion, on 19 August 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

People who say TTK is too short are the same people who don't know to make use of their armor... *cough* TORSO TWIST! *cough*

shadap Legion :V

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Wintersdark, on 19 August 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

The Energy Draw system is much better for the IS, as compared to the Clan side. Clan ERPPC's get shafted pretty hard, being 13.5 draw for 10 damage where you want it, 2.5 beside, and *maybe* 2.5 to another segment. Meanwhile, you can run 3 PPC's for 30 PPFLD and zero penalty, and take it to 4 PPC's if you've got heat reduction quirks to use it practically, as the energy draw penalty is only 5 heat at that point.

Likewise with lasers, you can fire 4 Large or ER Large lasers effortlessly.

IS weapons fit within the limits much better. Clan's LPL and ERLL are 13 and 11 damage, so firing even 3 triggers extra heat, while just 2 cLPL's gets you very close to the cap, but also leaves you without enough to really fit anything else in.

Now, I'm not crying IS OP here, but you do need to actually test this before dredging up issues you have from Live.

this is all just for testing and subject to change they told.
i dont understand how they can implement such a system when the reason to remove ghost heat
was that it was too complex and restricting oO?

Edited by SHRedo, 20 August 2016 - 07:51 AM.

[davoodoo]

YourSaviorLegion, on 19 August 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

People who say TTK is too short are the same people who don't know to make use of their armor... *cough* TORSO TWIST! *cough*

No not rly, you can torso twist all you like and alpha will simply blow your side torso or arm and if torso twisting was really that effective ppl would all just go for legs as its still less armor than st and ct and in the fact against lights where you cant reliably put dmg in single spot thats where ppl aim...

ttk is too short because all dmg is put into single place.
50 dmg srm volleys scratch armor, 30 dmg laser alpha leaves a big hole.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 August 2016 - 08:07 AM.

[Wintersdark]

SHRedo, on 20 August 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

this is all just for testing and subject to change they told.
i dont understand how they can implement such a system when the reason to remove ghost heat
was that it was too complex and restricting oO?

This system IS much less complex and easier to understand in gameplay.

Ghost Heat was highly arbitrary, only affected specific combinations of weapons, had no in game UI demonstrating what's going on, and went from zero penalty to massive penalty if you fired a second volley a teensy fraction of a second too fast. It was a terrible system, this one is a massive improvement.

My post you quoted was not a complaint, just an observation. I'm perfectly happy with Energy Draw benefiting IS disproportionately, as then maybe we can get a couple of the more egregious clan weapon nerfs rolled back (specifically beam duration)

[ScarecrowES]

Wintersdark, on 20 August 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

This system IS much less complex and easier to understand in gameplay.

Ghost Heat was highly arbitrary, only affected specific combinations of weapons, had no in game UI demonstrating what's going on, and went from zero penalty to massive penalty if you fired a second volley a teensy fraction of a second too fast. It was a terrible system, this one is a massive improvement.

My post you quoted was not a complaint, just an observation. I'm perfectly happy with Energy Draw benefiting IS disproportionately, as then maybe we can get a couple of the more egregious clan weapon nerfs rolled back (specifically beam duration)

It's definitely easier to understand in concept. In practice though, it's another matter. Impossible to know, at a glance, when you're building exactly how the mech will perform once you start firing. And unless you've got your calclulator out, impossible to predict with much certainty while you're playing what will or won't incur penalties unless you've got your weapons parselled out into strict 30-damage groups and have rigid fire control. It's one of those things that sounds simple, until it isn't.

Once you start adding different draw for different weapons, it ceases to be simple, even in concept.

I assume on the live server there will be more info in the mechlab as to the draw of each weapon... and ideally when you set up weapon groups the game will tell you what the draw on each group is. Maybe we should actually suggest that second part since nothing in the notes says this is so.

Moreover, moving the draw gauge to where you can actually see it... somewhere around the firing reticle... will make it a lot easier to control during fights.

[Khobai]

Quote

It's way slower than practically every other arena PvP game out there.

except other games have respawns

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 20 August 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

except other games have respawns

Respawn games usually have longer match times (since respawns make "tug-of-war" gameplay possible), but the pace of combat is still much faster in them.

[Khobai]

Quote

Respawn games usually have longer match times (since respawns make "tug-of-war" gameplay possible), but the pace of combat is still much faster in them.

the quality of gameplay is much better too

if we had respawns we wouldnt need any of this stupid energy draw crap either

because with respawns TTK would be a non issue

Edited by Khobai, 20 August 2016 - 10:59 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

TTK is more a factor of focusing and bad play than it is on mech damage output vs health. If you fight another mech one-on-one, you'll find TTK isn't so bad... too high even, most would say. It's only once you find you've made a mistake and exposed yourself to the whole enemy team that TTK becomes low.

I shudder to think how awful this game would be if TTK was significantly increased.

People like to point to Call of Duty and say "I want higher TTK so it doesn't become THAT twitchfest." Ironic considering CoD has one of the least-punishing gameplay systems in the genre. Make a mistake, and you'll likely live to tell about it. Low damage-to-health ratios and regen health with respawns. Very easy to play poorly and not be punished for it.

I honestly believe when people say TTK is too high in MWO, what they REALLY mean is, "I don't want to be punished for playing poorly."

[Tarl Cabot]

Steve Pryde, on 19 August 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

Just no. We already have double armor+internal strucure buffs. Just adjust the dmg values of the weapons to the cds and its fine. A ppc shouldn't do 10 dmg with a 4-5 sec. cd. In table top all weapons have a "cd" of 10 sec. If you translate it correctly to MWO a ppc would only do 4-5 dmg if you adjust it right.

Don't forget about Solaris!!! where FASA actually introduced Weapon Groupings (TICS) and Cooldowns (delays) when creating a game that was about mech vs mech (2.5sec turns) from the BT original lance vs lance (10sec turns) game.

It is sad though when others try to break Battletech's lance vs lance weapons in 10sec cooldowns on all weapons, or spread the damage across all weapons, when that game was not a FPS-type game but a simulation of what was happening in 10sec segments. Solaris's mech on mech was done in 2.5secs and Battleforce's company/regiment was done in 60sec turns.

Below is what I see as an issue, whether it is Ghost Heat (based on number of weapons and the damage they do) vs Energy Draw (based on the actual damage, regardless of the number of weapons), is that we still have a one-trick pony with the Heat Scale. Nothing happens to the pilot nor his/her mech when riding throwing out the heat UNTIL the scale pegs at 100%+.

PGI keeps throwing different things at the game at an attempt to limit how much damage it thrown downfield. GH was long vs med vs short, based on weapon type but until that mech hit 100% pls it still had full speed forward and full reverse. ED is now, even after adjustments, is based on total damage but that mech is still moving full speed forward and reverse.

With a semi-functional heat scale, not the semi-comatose version we have now, those players that ride that heatscale should experience negative effects before it even hits 100%. A slowed/less agile mech can not reach the next line of cover as quickly nor twist as quickly to spread incoming fire, nor can a mech reverse back into cover as quickly/twist as quickly to avoid return fire.

The only way PGI could actual CAP damage is stop the ability to fire said damage all at one time. Heat with a semi-comatose heatscale, whether it be the Live GH or the PTS ED, may alter a few things but still make the mech, as it is relocating for its next shot, impervious to that heatscale until it hits 100%.....

Quote

The main reason it turns into a brawl fest so quickly is because it is 4vs4, not an 8vs8 or 12vs12, so there is no worry about being focused down by 5+ mechs at one time, lots of cover to move before engagement, etc. The same reason people had to adjust their weapon loads on light/med for FP Scout drops.

And the other issue is that heat has no game consequences UNTIL it hits 100+. I really do not see why PGI even keeps the heatscale in the game, it makes it appear is if it is the actual band-aid but then what to do with the heatsinks?. PGI could remove that band-aid and give the Energy draw hard cap and heatsinks turn into power sinks...

The Power Draw LOOKS to be more visible in-game vs the current Ghost Heat, but there is still nothing in game to make peoples THINK about their next action, and not from an immediate shutdown if they fire that next weapon(s) but from the mech's myomer bundles reaction times slowing down, causing the mech itself to slow down and become less agile.

[Wintersdark]

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

It's definitely easier to understand in concept. In practice though, it's another matter. Impossible to know, at a glance, when you're building exactly how the mech will perform once you start firing. And unless you've got your calclulator out, impossible to predict with much certainty while you're playing what will or won't incur penalties unless you've got your weapons parselled out into strict 30-damage groups and have rigid fire control. It's one of those things that sounds simple, until it isn't.

Once you start adding different draw for different weapons, it ceases to be simple, even in concept.

I assume on the live server there will be more info in the mechlab as to the draw of each weapon... and ideally when you set up weapon groups the game will tell you what the draw on each group is. Maybe we should actually suggest that second part since nothing in the notes says this is so.

Moreover, moving the draw gauge to where you can actually see it... somewhere around the firing reticle... will make it a lot easier to control during fights.

The UI isn't perfect, but I've addressed this already. I agree there needs to be a better indication of how much you're drawing and such.

However, we're comparing this with Live and Ghost Heat.

Each weapon under ghost heat belongs to a given Linked Weapon Group, has a safe number that can be fired, and a heat multiplier when those limits are exceeded.

None of that is shown in the mechlab except "you will incur a heat penalty if you exceed X of Y weapons.". How can you know if you can exceed the GH limit, by how much? How much heat will firing 4 lrm10's generate?

When you're in game, NOTHING is shown, no indication oh what is happening at all, or if you're exceeding GH limits or not.

This system could be better, but in all ways it's flatly superior to the trash that is ghost heat.

[ScarecrowES]

Wintersdark, on 20 August 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

The UI isn't perfect, but I've addressed this already. I agree there needs to be a better indication of how much you're drawing and such.

However, we're comparing this with Live and Ghost Heat.

Each weapon under ghost heat belongs to a given Linked Weapon Group, has a safe number that can be fired, and a heat multiplier when those limits are exceeded.

None of that is shown in the mechlab except "you will incur a heat penalty if you exceed X of Y weapons.". How can you know if you can exceed the GH limit, by how much? How much heat will firing 4 lrm10's generate?

When you're in game, NOTHING is shown, no indication oh what is happening at all, or if you're exceeding GH limits or not.

This system could be better, but in all ways it's flatly superior to the trash that is ghost heat.

I agree that GH is trash, don't get me wrong... but on the notion of a system showing where and how you will incur penalties, GH is better. Mechlab warns you outright exactly what will incur a penalty. At no point does this ever change, no matter what you do. As long as you don't do x, you won't ever get y. If you mount 12 small lasers, you know from the get go that you can't fire more than 6 at a time. It's very easy.

The state of ED is always changing... sometimes it's ok to do something, sometimes it's not. Sometimes you'll get a penalty, whereas if you waited 0.125 seconds you wouldn't. Firing this group then this group, penalty. Firing them in the reverse order, no penalty. You end up boating in ED for the very reason that it's simply easier than trying to figure out what you can safely fire and when. It's definitely more complex and VASTLY harder to manage in practice than GH is.

You, me... many others... we're veterans. We have this figured out, and even so it's a struggle to handle.

Now imagine someone new. GH vs ED. Which system is easier to explain to someone who has never built and piloted a mech before? Think about that honestly. GH is simple by comparison, easy to explain, and likely to never actually come up during a match since most people don't use builds that COULD incur ghost heat penalties. Once you build your mech, you never have to think about it again. ED? Not so much. It's a constant juggle of variables.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

Now imagine someone new. GH vs ED. Which system is easier to explain to someone who has never built and piloted a mech before?

The only problem is, GH requires memorization of the ghost heat penalties, so they both have their issues, especially if weapons share the same "group" penalty. Ghost heat is simpler in that if you have the thresholds memorized, things are easy. Energy Draw is simpler in that there isn't a whole lot of memorization it is more dynamic.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 August 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[X a v i e r]

This has been said before in this thread, but bears repeating.

PGI is trying to enforce TTK based on 1v1 rules, when this is a team game. Even in 4v4, 120 damage to your CT (any mech) and you are down inside 10s if you are dumb enough to peek again.

There is an additional dynamic at play here to -- the "scrub" mentality vs. the "play to win" mentality. The PTW player will *always* find the most effective combination of equipment and technique to deal the most damage in shortest amount of time, regardless what you do with the rules, penalties, whatever. The scrub will always try to impose new rules to gimp the PTW player, but in the end, regardless of the makeup of any community, there will always be the top 5-10% of players that will always be able to beat anyone else, given the same ruleset. (For those paying attention, this trend mirrors the same socio-political dynamics we see in real life, so it's not particularly surprising to find it in any game community as well).

So until you allow the scrub and the PTW to separate themselves from one another -- voluntarily -- this mythical Mechwarrior nirvana everyone keeps trying to reach is pure fantasy, and always will be, You will only continue to frustrate the scrub while not affecting the PTW player much at all. For example, after a night of play last night, I can agree with Quick, my style and results were not particularly affected (and yes, I understand this is early in the testing).

I feel like PGI needs to describe for us, in precise detail, what exactly is the problem they are trying to solve, and for whom. For example, is this for the benefit of new players, and if so, what exactly is PGI trying to achieve? I've read the post abouit the feature, but nothing concerning the rationale behind it.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

The only problem is, GH requires memorization of the ghost heat penalties, so they both have their issues, especially if weapons share the same "group" penalty. Ghost heat is simpler in that if you have the thresholds memorized, things are easy. Energy Draw is simpler in that there isn't a whole lot of memorization it is more dynamic.

You really don't have to memorize GH penalties though, right? Most people will build their mechs in such a way that they don't get that little triangle warning them of a GH conflict. If your mech doesn't have that lil triangle (most won't) then you never have to think about GH ever again. For the few mechs that DO get that little triangle, all you have to remember to do is not do whatever that lil triangle says not to do. Oh, I've mounted 12 small lasers, but this thing says not to fire more than 6 at once. Ok, so I don't fire more than 6 at once. Set up 2 groups of 6, and never fire them together. You don't even have to remember WHY you're not firing them together.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

You really don't have to memorize GH penalties though, right?

You do if you are boating that weapon, very much so. If I have a mech that could trigger ghost heat I need to remember what limit it's at because while rare, those thresholds do change.

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

Most people will build their mechs in such a way that they don't get that little triangle warning them of a GH conflict.

Depends on the build, as some do suffer from ghost heat, like the Wubshee/Wubmaster, the 3 LPL HBK-IIC-A, or the Grasshopper.

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

You don't even have to remember WHY you're not firing them together.

You do if you don't want to suffer when you alpha them, knowing why you grouped them that way is important.

[X a v i e r]

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

Oh, I've mounted 12 small lasers, but this thing says not to fire more than 6 at once. Ok, so I don't fire more than 6 at once. Set up 2 groups of 6, and never fire them together. You don't even have to remember WHY you're not firing them together.

I think you'll find the top players (the ones consistently doing the most damage with non-missile weapons) in matches are already doing this, and it's nothing to do with avoiding GH, it's simple heat management basics.

[davoodoo]

Ghost heat was way easier to understand, you go into game you make your mech you see warning info that firing x weapons of y type at once will produce extra heat, you avoid that and thats it.

But with this system you need to get info about how much energy you have as it isnt written ingame and ill assume you dont read patch notes, you need to check values for every weapon and make calculations to not exceed limit then you also need to make groups for different ranges. Also to minmax you might want to go over energy cap which you simply didnt do in ghost heat at which point you got 0 info about how much ghost heat you produce and are forced to test every combination yourself.

Do you know how much ghost heat you produce?? i still have no idea how much more im getting when i fire 40 dmg alpha rather than 30.
Its convoluted system to get into then its even more convoluted to optimize in it.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 August 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

I always thought the armor pt system was a huge plus for mechwarrior and battletech. The smallest weapon can damage the biggest mech. If people want fancier armor mechanics I think World of Tanks would be more to their liking.

[1453 R]

Wintersdark, on 19 August 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

Yeah, agreed.

I personally prefer lower penalties at 30, as it makes exceeding the boundary a tactical choice at run time rather than a strategic choice at mech build time. With harsher penalties at 40, you'd never want to exceed it, but as it stands it's fine to step over the line here and there.

Highlighting this for emphasis. Was running a 4x cLPL Executioner recently (before I smashed myself up and slagged both my arms. No more serious testing for me ) and found that the current iteration of Energy Draw made it much more interesting to run. Current Ghost Heat, or the "I never want to see another alpha strike EVER AGAIN EVER IN THE HISTORY OF NEVER" Club, would limit this to strictly 2x2 firing, but in the current edition?

Normally I want 2x2 for efficiency, but in the thick of heavy fighting I can chose to hit all four at once for a killshot, or to try and guarantee sawing off a weakened limb to cripple an enemy, or to hit a target I'm about to lose sight of harder than normal, or a number of other useful options; all at the cost of needing to watch my heat closely for a while after that. It felt much more tactical and engaging - much more 'Thinking Man's Shooter' - than the current/proposed "step over this limit and you'll hate yourself forever" solutions.

It's a soft cap you can break at need if the situation warrants it, in exchange for a penalty. That makes for much more interesting buildcraft and gameplay than the effective hard cap of existing Ghost Heat or brutally overpenalizing Energy Draw.

Edited by 1453 R, 20 August 2016 - 12:29 PM.