71 replies to this topic

[Sable]

jjyn, on 25 August 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

Sable you keep on thinking this is a good thing, I have played this game for 3 years without as much as a week break and when i tried thier stupid idea out on PTS it was the first time i told my team when this hits real play i am done too, and i have alot of money into this game. It is no more then PGI trying too control the game instead of letting it play how it is and not addressing the real problems of the game. So keep telling them they are doing great and see how long your wait times get for drops when everyone is gone. Maybe if enough players state it and go on strike when it drops they will learn and maybe be smart and change it back.

Well then how? How is it stupid? Why do you not like it? give specific examples of what you would like to be able to do and why PGI should allow you to do it? Explain why it's good for the game. You know i had a gaming buddy that i used to play with all the time in MWO back before ghost heat. He liked to use a 6 PPC Stalker to 1 maybe 2 shot people. That was fun to him. And when Ghost heat came about he was upset. He didn't like it and thought it was stupid because he could no longer one shot everything. So he left the game and i haven't seen him since then. But you know what that annoying stalker build is specifically the reason i never play black jacks. PPCs got so ridiculous you'd die the moment you peaked over a hill or around a corner. I can say from personal experience.... "It wasn't fun for me". Ghost heat at least prevented that stupidness from happening until people started to find ways around it. It took a while but thats how we got to where we are today. So now a different and more encompassing system is in the works that will make the game fun and challenging again. In my original post i highlighted the numbers of a few well known builds and how you can still alphastrike but it's not practical. Until someone can explain with examples how energy draw will ruin the game, or break a build I just won't take you seriously. The only argument I've seen is "it ruins the game" with no examples of how. How is it bad to not be allowed a 98 point alpha in one second but still be allowed to deal that 98 damage over a period of time ranging from *GASP* several seconds...

Edited by Sable, 25 August 2016 - 03:53 PM.

[davoodoo]

Whole battletech ruleset is built around alphas.
Building rules are about maximising dmg output while maintaining heat.

So limiting alphas just ruins the battletech feel for me.
And dont give me crap about balance, mw1-4 did just fine without limiting them...

Does this game offer any actual content then besides battletech mech piloting, maybe some story mode or at least meaningful pvp?? no not rly, 12v12 tdm or 12v12 tdm with respawns and tomtom.

Any redeeming qualites?? well you can get excited for new mech...

But how the hell am i to be excited for mad2c when its designed for ppc or gauss alphas,,. both nerfed to the ground
Its boring 4 lpl boat, like i didnt skip warhawk and timber exactly because its just that.

Night gyr?? well yeah, he got ballistics, itll be fun, what should i do with it?? 4 uac5, nerfed despite never being high demand in clan design... 3 uac10, boring mini kodiak, 2 uac20 + backup lasers?? not with ed, thats 4x 1s recharge to discharge 2 uac alone at which point they go off cd... i ******* despise lbx, dual gauss?? yeah not gonna happen, 4 lpls are you ******* kidding me...

So ok i cant be excited about new mechs because theyll end up being 4lpl, 5 medlas or 2/3 uac10 because thats only viable options for clans within ed... oh i could go lrm but then ill need mech with 6+ missile hardpoints for lrm5 spam...

Whats left?? linebacker with its oversized engine might be able to finally put "amazing" alpha, 30 dmg is achievable for this sucker... thats what it came to, 65 tonner with bigger engine than fatlas is alpha capped... universe biggest light mech cant fire in alpha...

I really understand how warhammer fans feel about age of sigmar now...
Lets turn core principles of the game and balance around, lets make it a mess without any foothold in established lore and lets pretend it can be a change for the good...

Last hope within hbs battletech, cause if this wont be huge success then this entire franchise is dead...

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 04:47 PM.

[Nightmare1]

davoodoo, on 25 August 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Reactive
"The armor was developed by the Draconis Combine in 3063"
"The armor would be later enter more expansive production by 3081"

Reflective
"The armor's status as Experimental item ended at the close of the Jihad era. It would enter regular production and became a standard Inner Sphere Technology in 3080."

Well then ill ask for
http://www.sarna.net...ga_(BattleMech)
3076 also would like to note it was heat neutral with such weaponry and only 65 dmg alpha, very small for 150 tonner, less than heavy custom mech refit can achieve tbh but what do you expect from weaponry which generates only 7 heat yet got 20 heat worth of dhs and all of its weaponry is above medlas range.
and
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rotary_AC/5
3062

And i dont give a ****, ultimate dakka incoming.

I say, "Who cares about the Timeline?" PGI has broken it a couple times now to put things in game. Frankly, I'd rather have them break the timeline to include things that may be futuristic but still be in the BT Universe, rather than have them invent new variants or convoluted heat mechanics simply because they don't want to butcher that sacred cow.

[Sable]

davoodoo, on 25 August 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

Whole battletech ruleset is built around alphas.
Building rules are about maximising dmg output while maintaining heat.

So limiting alphas just ruins the battletech feel for me.
And dont give me crap about balance, mw1-4 did just fine without limiting them...

But how the hell am i to be excited for mad2c when its designed for ppc or gauss alphas,,. both nerfed to the ground
Its boring 4 lpl boat, like i didnt skip warhawk and timber exactly because its just that.

Night gyr?? well yeah, he got ballistics, itll be fun, what should i do with it?? 4 uac5, nerfed despite never being high demand in clan design... 3 uac10, boring mini kodiak, 2 uac20 + backup lasers?? not with ed, thats 4x 1s recharge to discharge 2 uac alone at which point they go off cd... i ******* despise lbx, dual gauss?? yeah not gonna happen, 4 lpls are you ******* kidding me...

So ok i cant be excited about new mechs because theyll end up being 4lpl, 5 medlas or 2/3 uac10 because thats only viable options for clans within ed... oh i could go lrm but then ill need mech with 6+ missile hardpoints for lrm5 spam...

quoting the the relevant information and leaving out some of the whine in the second half of your response.

The "whole battletech ruleset" wasn't built around alphas. You had to move and choose which weapons to use each turn in order to maintain heat levels for the next turn. You had to take range and RnG into account when attacking. If all you did was alpha every turn then you were a bad player.

Every complaint you list about current or upcoming mechs, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ALPHA.. .why can you not grasp that idea? I mean if you get into a real fight do you punch with both arms and kick with both legs at the same time every time? Or do you swing one then the other so you can maintain balance while using the most effective force for each hit even though each individual hit = "lower dps" lets take some of your examples and apply this principle.

Marauder IIC - 3 ERPPCs, 2 Medium Pulse, 4 ER Smalls.
chain fire the ppcs, group fire the medium pulse (when in range), group fire the er smalls (when in range)

Marauder IIC-D - 2 Gauss, 2 SSRM4s, 1 Large Pulse, 1 ER Small.
fire both gauss at once for minimal heat penalty, large pulse as follow up, ER Small (when in range), both streaks (when in range)

I mean those are stock builds and you're weapon groups are already setup for you. How about some more.

Night Gyr
I plan to mix pods for a 2 UAC10 and 4 ER Medium laser build. And yes you would be over your energy limit if you alpha strike but it's the simplest thing.. fire the 2 UAC10s... THEN the 4 ER Medium. That whole entire chain of events takes less than 3 seconds. If i was in a bind then i'd probably be mashing the UAC10s for a double tap and i would suffer a heat penalty for it. But thats the whole point of the new system. You get to choose your rate of fire... at a cost.

And as for only taking multi LRM hardpoint mechs for LRM 5 spam, that just goes to show the small view you have. When the meta shifts, you'll be playing catch-up because you can't imagine anything on your own.

[davoodoo]

Sable, on 25 August 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

quoting the the relevant information and leaving out some of the whine in the second half of your response.

The "whole battletech ruleset" wasn't built around alphas. You had to move and choose which weapons to use each turn in order to maintain heat levels for the next turn. You had to take range and RnG into account when attacking. If all you did was alpha every turn then you were a bad player.

Every complaint you list about current or upcoming mechs, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ALPHA.. .why can you not grasp that idea? I mean if you get into a real fight do you punch with both arms and kick with both legs at the same time every time? Or do you swing one then the other so you can maintain balance while using the most effective force for each hit even though each individual hit = "lower dps" lets take some of your examples and apply this principle.

Marauder IIC - 3 ERPPCs, 2 Medium Pulse, 4 ER Smalls.
chain fire the ppcs, group fire the medium pulse (when in range), group fire the er smalls (when in range)

Marauder IIC-D - 2 Gauss, 2 SSRM4s, 1 Large Pulse, 1 ER Small.
fire both gauss at once for minimal heat penalty, large pulse as follow up, ER Small (when in range), both streaks (when in range)

I mean those are stock builds and you're weapon groups are already setup for you. How about some more.

Night Gyr
I plan to mix pods for a 2 UAC10 and 4 ER Medium laser build. And yes you would be over your energy limit if you alpha strike but it's the simplest thing.. fire the 2 UAC10s... THEN the 4 ER Medium. That whole entire chain of events takes less than 3 seconds. If i was in a bind then i'd probably be mashing the UAC10s for a double tap and i would suffer a heat penalty for it. But thats the whole point of the new system. You get to choose your rate of fire... at a cost.

And as for only taking multi LRM hardpoint mechs for LRM 5 spam, that just goes to show the small view you have. When the meta shifts, you'll be playing catch-up because you can't imagine anything on your own.

Ofc it was, you had with most mechs set up with 2 firing groups which they fired in alpha depending on range.

1 for long range and another for short, kinda like in ghost heat...

marauder 2ppc 1 ac5 for long range, 2 mlas for short range, but hell it was lvl1 tech, it was hawt as **** and it generated 6 heat with long range weaponry for merely 25 dmg

Lets look at lvl2 direwhale prime, long range alpha group of 4 erll=48 heat, + 2 uac5=2-4 heat, with 44 dissipation...6-8 heat per turn over twice the dmg at 50-60...

and mad2c??
3 erppc generate 45 heat, he got 21 dhs so 42 dissipation, 3 heat for 45 dmg cool long range alpha...
then short range weaponry 2x4 + 4x2= 16 heat neutral short range weaponry...
2 gausses?? there aint a mech within battletech franchise which wouldnt be able to fire 2 10 gausses heat neutral...


all 3 trigger heavy penatlies within ed. 3erppc cause 69 heat total, 2 gausses 12 heat, 2 mpls+4 ersl 30 heat!!??
Wouldnt be so bad no it would still be bad if you had properly working heat sinks but they are nerfed too...

But **** lets even think that ed gets somehow fixed and its enjoyable addition to battletech.
What will happen with hag40?? pretty much 40 dmg clan gauss autocannon(burst fire)... 48 energy?? i hope ill hear to chainfire single weapon...
I also hope mrm will be turned into srm with higher optimal range so they are absolutely useless at 200m but draw like cluster weapon... Its not like for tonnage of mrm40 you could take 48 dmg worth of srm6...

Edited by davoodoo, 26 August 2016 - 02:45 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Nightmare1, on 24 August 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

If PGI would like us to fight with rocks and pointed sticks, then they should just say so instead of slowly crushing our souls like this.

Wouldn't it be funny if they finally made melee-weapons work?

[davoodoo]

The6thMessenger, on 26 August 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

Wouldn't it be funny if they finally made melee-weapons work?

you did 60 dmg charge?? well then 30 heat 42 heat from ed cause it was ppfld...

Edited by davoodoo, 26 August 2016 - 02:11 AM.

[JaegerDjinn]

Sable, on 25 August 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

Well then how? How is it stupid? Why do you not like it? give specific examples of what you would like to be able to do and why PGI should allow you to do it? Explain why it's good for the game. You know i had a gaming buddy that i used to play with all the time in MWO back before ghost heat. He liked to use a 6 PPC Stalker to 1 maybe 2 shot people. That was fun to him. And when Ghost heat came about he was upset. He didn't like it and thought it was stupid because he could no longer one shot everything. So he left the game and i haven't seen him since then. But you know what that annoying stalker build is specifically the reason i never play black jacks. PPCs got so ridiculous you'd die the moment you peaked over a hill or around a corner. I can say from personal experience.... "It wasn't fun for me". Ghost heat at least prevented that stupidness from happening until people started to find ways around it. It took a while but thats how we got to where we are today. So now a different and more encompassing system is in the works that will make the game fun and challenging again. In my original post i highlighted the numbers of a few well known builds and how you can still alphastrike but it's not practical. Until someone can explain with examples how energy draw will ruin the game, or break a build I just won't take you seriously. The only argument I've seen is "it ruins the game" with no examples of how. How is it bad to not be allowed a 98 point alpha in one second but still be allowed to deal that 98 damage over a period of time ranging from *GASP* several seconds...

Well i can tell you I am not a one shot person, I love too brawl and with the new system that will be pretty much dead. Most of my builds deal with DPS and just about everything is slow. The IS ultras will be not used any more and it isnt about the speed of fire, it is about the ability too fire multiple rounds consecutively this point you are lucky they work with out jamming them on the test. Also i am not going too rebuild my 50+ mechs that i have built and run for the past three years. When they drop this patch it will all long range and missles like they have always pushed this game towards. So after three years I am tired of jumping thru Hopes just too play a game.

[Wibbledtodeath]

davoodoo, on 26 August 2016 - 01:27 AM, said:

.........2 gausses?? there aint a mech within battletech franchise which wouldnt be able to fire 2 10 gausses heat neutral...

To reinforce what others have already said- using you apt example- just fire in groups of 1-2/second and you will still remain heat neutral even with 2-10 gauss over 10 seconds of fighting (but not likely hitting all pinpoint on the one location. As indeed you could not in TT).

I agree though that PGI could do more for emersion really- but Ghost heat takes the cake in breaking that one so anything looks better in comparison.

Edited by Wibbledtodeath, 26 August 2016 - 04:42 AM.

[Quardak]

as ALPHAing is the only the can...

Maybe buy a Mouse with a second button ?

Edited by Quardak, 26 August 2016 - 04:46 AM.

[davoodoo]

Wibbledtodeath, on 26 August 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

To reinforce what others have already said- using you apt example- just fire in groups of 1-2/second and you will still remain heat neutral even with 2-10 gauss over 10 seconds of fighting (but not likely hitting all pinpoint on the one location. As indeed you could not in TT).

I agree though that PGI could do more for emersion really- but Ghost heat takes the cake in breaking that one so anything looks better in comparison.

Yeah and this results in ton of wasted dps, all while gauss itself aint light...

im taking 15 tons weapon(12 for clans) + 2-3 tons of ammo to have a 15 dmg peashooter which i cant combine with anything else...

Solution to that problem??
boat lpl...
build ive run for fun on my ebj
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...addc925958c86ae
2 weapon groups 30 dmg at range, 10 up close, now ill need to do 15 + 15 + 10...
Why bother
Something little bit more meta maybe??
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1e54c3d110d7fb5
15+20pinpoint/10 cluser. 45 dmg total, it aint all pinpoint and its hawt...
Why bother

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c67a2cec2852b11
my new ebj
2x 26 alphas... at long range...shorter cooldowns, not too hawt.

Edited by davoodoo, 26 August 2016 - 05:02 AM.

[Wibbledtodeath]

davoodoo, on 26 August 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:

Yeah and this results in ton of wasted dps, all while gauss itself aint light...

im taking 15 tons weapon(12 for clans) + 2-3 tons of ammo to have a 15 dmg peashooter which i cant combine with anything else...

Solution to that problem??
boat lpl...
build ive run for fun on my ebj
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...addc925958c86ae
2 weapon groups 30 dmg at range, 10 up close, now ill need to do 15 + 15 + 10...
Why bother
Something little bit more meta maybe??
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1e54c3d110d7fb5
15+20pinpoint/10 cluser. 45 dmg total, it aint all pinpoint and its hawt...
Why bother

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c67a2cec2852b11
my new ebj
2x 26 alphas... at long range...shorter cooldowns, not too hawt.

If you are saying ED v2 went a little too restrictive- I agree. I don't mind PPFLD having SOME extra power draw to stop big pinpoint alphas- but the base weapons should be damn awesome to compensate when used in smaller numbers/chain fired. PPC's are now useless. On the ED PTSv1 PPFLD was probably overpowered (though this was largely restricted to certain mechs with either good tonnage and hardpoint combo's or quirks). Hopefully PGI finds a happy middle ground.

[davoodoo]

Wibbledtodeath, on 26 August 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

If you are saying ED v2 went a little too restrictive- I agree. I don't mind PPFLD having SOME extra power draw to stop big pinpoint alphas- but the base weapons should be damn awesome to compensate when used in smaller numbers/chain fired. PPC's are now useless. On the ED PTSv1 PPFLD was probably overpowered (though this was largely restricted to certain mechs with either good tonnage and hardpoint combo's or quirks). Hopefully PGI finds a happy middle ground.

Difference between pts1 and pts2 is that ppc and gauss were removed...

Basically from 3 viable buils we went to 2...

[Sable]

I guess i just have to accept that the doomsayers don't know how to use more then 1 button to fire. Every single build i've tried is completely able to fire groups of weapons without getting penalties or if they do, very small penalties. If none of you can do that then by all means rage quit in a giant fire ball of glory and move on to another game. Pft.. overwatch ahhahahaha what a joke. But honestly, i guess a twitch shooter would fit your play style better if energy draw is too much to handle.

[davoodoo]

Sable, on 26 August 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

I guess i just have to accept that the doomsayers don't know how to use more then 1 button to fire. Every single build i've tried is completely able to fire groups of weapons without getting penalties or if they do, very small penalties. If none of you can do that then by all means rage quit in a giant fire ball of glory and move on to another game. Pft.. overwatch ahhahahaha what a joke. But honestly, i guess a twitch shooter would fit your play style better if energy draw is too much to handle.

No i already got clan mech builds adapted to ed

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cf589daf8a9cec2
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5c08bed897c5858
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ae5983a93b23255
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...77e6a2cf7a76fe1

You see a pattern yet??

Edited by davoodoo, 26 August 2016 - 03:38 PM.

[Nightmare1]

The6thMessenger, on 26 August 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

Wouldn't it be funny if they finally made melee-weapons work?

I wish!

[Nightmare1]

Sable, on 26 August 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

I guess i just have to accept that the doomsayers don't know how to use more then 1 button to fire. Every single build i've tried is completely able to fire groups of weapons without getting penalties or if they do, very small penalties. If none of you can do that then by all means rage quit in a giant fire ball of glory and move on to another game. Pft.. overwatch ahhahahaha what a joke. But honestly, i guess a twitch shooter would fit your play style better if energy draw is too much to handle.

Nice, it's the old, "Everyone disagrees with me, therefore I'm the only one who's right!" defense!

Lol

Here kid, check this out:

https://www.youtube....Pa4HqDhPzkWo1ZA

You can use that to access videos of MWO from Beta up until the present. Compare anything on that link to this:



That's PTS 1 for Energy Draw. Notice how the energy Mechs aren't really affected? Now watch:



Oooh! Energy Mechs are even less affected now, while the ballistic and SRM Mechs take a beating! This isn't about alpha striking kid. It's about balancing the game. My 3xCLPL Timber Wolf Prime is now, essentially, heat neutral. I don't even have to change my fighting style either, since I already fire in volleys of 2 and then 1. No change to my playstyle, but my meta build gets buffed.

Compare that to my poor Quickdraw. It got hammered and can no longer brawl. The important thing for brawlers, is being able to alpha strike with most of their guns, and then turn to shield with their torso. At 50% heat, you can't alpha more than once. Suddenly, there is no reason to equip a brawling loadout on my QKD. I might as well go with LPLs on it too.

That's the problem kid. It's not that the game becomes unplayable or that people have to stagger fire in order to keep their builds. It's that those builds become even more obsolete. To continue with the same example, the brawling QKD-4H is a far cry from meta, but still an effective Mech if played carefully in the current game build. My option to play that style is being removed from the game with this public test though.

The issue is the fact that we have less options now, when the objective was supposedly to balance the game and provide more options. Energy Draw was supposed to let our fun builds and our troll builds be a little more useful compared to the meta. It was supposed to dampen the meta so that people had a reason to take something other than laser boats all the time. Instead, ED only reinforces the fact that there's no reason to ever run anything except laser boats.

My brawling Victors with their three different weapon systems (energy, missiles, and ballistic) are dead. They were already dead Mechs, but now they are skeletal corpses. The same goes for my Atlases. Why bother with either chassis, when my Stalkers and BattleMasters can just keep boating lasers with no real penalties? In addition, speed will become even more important in the current PTS build, so that fast BLR suddenly becomes a powerhouse.

That is the issue behind all of this. It's not a matter of single-button pushers crying, so much as the community as a whole crying out against PGI stripping us of our freedom to choose concerning our builds and playstyles. Everyone is being forced into a sniper or long-range skirmishing role with single weapon systems, and away from our favorite builds of yesteryear.

davoodoo, on 26 August 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

No i already got clan mech builds adapted to ed

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cf589daf8a9cec2
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5c08bed897c5858
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ae5983a93b23255
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...77e6a2cf7a76fe1

You see a pattern yet??

Bingo.

[JaegerDjinn]

First as i told you before Sable i am not a one shot wonder. Most of my mechs only are 30-40 point alfa mechs too begin with. Very few even touch 50. But lets recap the game so far as i can remember. First it was the ghost heat, that will stop the high alpha. Not. So now lets add jump jet heat scale too that also this will surely stop the high alphas. Never happened. Oh so now lets rebuild the entire mech system and set every mech too their importants in game, light will be reccon, meds support, heavies and assults bring the pain and armor, give everything good quirks too make them viable mechs too play and this was working great too PGI started stripping everything they gave them at first. They are giving us a blackjack that nobody will run because it cant survive anymore. And that was the end all of be all answers too this game for balance. Now they want too try too control the game play even more with energy draw and this is now the answer for everything. Here is the issue, when they find out this doesnt work whether a month or year down the road what will it be then. What will they ask of us then. They havent got a handle on it in the first 4-5 years of development and i dont think they will in the last 3-4 years that they have on the contract for this game.

[Sable]

davoodoo, on 26 August 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

No i already got clan mech builds adapted to ed

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cf589daf8a9cec2
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5c08bed897c5858
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ae5983a93b23255
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...77e6a2cf7a76fe1

You see a pattern yet??

a pattern of... no imagination? tunnel vision?? stuck on the old while the new meta will leave you behind?

[Syanis]

What I can say is this. Many in my unit are old players who have been around for years along with being Battletech geeks while I only started playing less then two months ago. A couple of friend units as well of my unit and myself are talking the exact same thing. What they all are saying with not a single old player saying otherwise is that if this patch goes live with the direction its going they will be quitting. A number of friends have pre-ordered at least a mechpack a month if not more yet just about every one of them is looking at refunds for upcoming mechs. The Marauder IIC was a huge wow for many friends and myself yet no one wants to spend another dime on the game with the direction PGI is taking it.

Now with this the general consensus reached with all of those I know and chat with is that this system is all about catering to T5 players and just in general sh*tty players who whine loud because they don't learn and just die off quick. Yet PGI forgets those T1 players and skilled players who have been around for years is the bread and butter that keeps them in a paycheck. Those are the guys who have spent hundreds of dollars or more while those T5 players come in and *may* drop $20 and then flake off within a couple of months.

No one is saying that no changes were needed though but PGI is going the wrong direction completely on this one destroying the game rather then just slowing it down a bit. There are plenty of other options available for them to slow down the game w/o turning everyone into pea shooters and screwing things up like this.