71 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Sable, on 26 August 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

a pattern of... no imagination? tunnel vision?? stuck on the old while the new meta will leave you behind?

Thats new meta...

lpl and uac10...

ppc were nerfed, gausses were nerfed, srm were nerfed, mpl were nerfed, medlas are still inferior to lpl, lurms werent ever good to begin with.

26x2=52 nothing does as much dmg for this kind of heat... and theres no incentive to combine

But why do i even bother, deny reality...

Edited by davoodoo, 27 August 2016 - 01:18 AM.

[Wibble in a Clan can]

Phase 2 saw over-nerfing of PPC's (base stats should not have been hit) and I frankly would not implement the changes to gauss yet for live (rebalance that outlier later as its own problem- keep charge mechanic and familiar stats for now to reduce culture shock. Give it a modest ED penalty so 2 combined is not THAT much hotter than currently).

Sadly, the conservative fearmongering is drowning out all reasonable feedback (which is allowed to be negative- just reasoned). No wonder Russ uses feedback from a few more reliable sources. Only have yourselves to blame.

Very hard to take someone's analysis seriously when they declare that if ED is implemented they will walk (without actually having any set values for ED yet)- that it is the end of times, that individualised ED values to weapons will be incomprehensible (we have that with heat already, duh) etc etc.

[davoodoo]

There was time for fear mongering already but i said **** it maybe some miracle and happens and despite ****** premise it will turn up good, but then pts came and sorry, this aint fearmongering, this is empirical reality at this point...

And russ taking feedback from reliable sources?? those who will always praise him?? reliable??

Sure you can sort ppl in groups give them generalized term lke conservatives, all in the name of avoiding argument...

Edited by davoodoo, 27 August 2016 - 03:21 AM.

[Wibbledtodeath]

davoodoo, on 27 August 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

There was time for fear mongering already but i said **** it maybe some miracle and happens and despite ****** premise it will turn up good, but then pts came and sorry, this aint fearmongering, this is empirical reality at this point...

And russ taking feedback from reliable sources?? those who will always praise him?? reliable??

Sure you can sort ppl in groups give them generalized term lke conservatives, all in the name of avoiding argument...

No THAT is fearmongering- because you forget what the T stands for in PTS. It is NOT reality at this point.

'Reliable'- was based on actually providing tested and reasoned feedback (and no I don't agree with all of said feedback- but it should be TESTED in the test server- cause that's what it is for).

Feedback that is full of panic and hyperbole (even if it has grains of truth) is not likely to get much billing.

and I don't need to avoid argument. However I label conservative fearmongering is exactly that (I even gave examples of what I meant by that for those that are not so savvy).

Edited by Wibbledtodeath, 27 August 2016 - 03:32 AM.

[davoodoo]

It was tested, reaction to what ppl seen is on these forums... You might have a point where only info we were given was "30 dmg alphas" but now, we all can see how it works and all flaws of it...

And no, since pts came out i dont think ive used hyperbole besides guessing what next piece of nerfs will be(which wasnt even meant as actual feedback) and i still bet money that at least half of that hyperbole will be true...

And still if you ignore feedback because you dont like the tone or message this feedback brings then youre ******* idiot who will ignore ideas without even exploring them... dont blame it on ppl whom you given the reason to mock you...

Edited by davoodoo, 27 August 2016 - 04:27 AM.

[Tiantara]

- Funny thing that I'm nearly live on PTS with some pause for work, some stuff, and freelance job... And nearly always see 0% population in queue. Hardly I collect pilots in F.List to make Private Battles in real situation, not by shooting dummy mech on test ground. Doing that is one part. Use build in real battle - another. Here your enemy can preserve useful for him range of fire and you don't even scratch him by LPL. By mixing weapon in so called "non-meta" builds you can softer enemy armor before he come closer.
What to say - even 4xERPPC Kodiak more depends on pilot skill, reaction, timing and use of battlefield environment. Such as - temperature, landscape, building, cliffs... In bad pilot hands even meta build will be... trash.
I see many test in Test grounds and even thoughts from people who make decision based on video, not actual game. But a few really 8 vs 8 battle. And even so - most to them based only on desire to check: are their build still meta and OP or not. But not in way of searching for new tactic, new builds on mech they newer use before. With all give freedom on PTS players lock themselves into the chains. Why? I have no answer for that question.

[Spleenslitta]

ScarecrowES, on 24 August 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:

If by "bright future" you mean "servers shutting down" I'd certainly agree. I guarantee if what we're seeing on the PTS hit the live servers, you'd see a mass exodus of players.

No blowing smoke there. Mass exodus.

Scarecrow isn't blowing smoke here. I see you're a Founder OP. Do you remember how many complaints there were when GH was introduced?
Well i predict ED will receive the same amount of complaints or even worse.
GH complaints still pop up after all this time and when ED hits the live servers MWO might not live through it.

ED brings nothing new. It was old and boring the moment it was announced. As a matter of fact i think of ED as a rotten corpse that Russ is attempting to revive by using lightning.
Even if it becomes alive it will stay rotten and fall apart within a few months.
MWO might not survive the next six months once ED hits the live servers.

ED does very little to directly encourage mixed weaponry because ED sees no difference between an AC5 and an ML except for firerate.
If ED sees any kind of success it will be limited. Instead of 1 or 2 clicks to kill an opponent it will instead be 3 or 4 clicks but the time it takes between each click will be lower so it won't be much of a difference.

Lower damage rapid fire alphas will be the new meta and that is all there is to it.
If Russ and Paul were openminded to more advanced solutions rather than shortcut patchwork ones like GH and ED they would look through the PTS feedback section.
There are heaps of ideas in these feedback forums better than what the dev's are cooking up.

The ideas of the community tend to be more advanced yes but at least we try to make MWO stand out from the other games.
Paul and Russ are chasing the idea of making MWO appealing to the Call of Duty crowd but we're talking big stomping robots with tonns of armor and weapons here.
Mechwarrior was never designed to be a one click fest without much skill involved.
But it became like that because of lazy developers who only want a shortterm moneygrab.

MWO is surviving thanks to one man alone.
That man is Alex Iglesias aka Flyingdebris who makes our mechs is the only guy keeping MWO floating at the moment because of his incredible genius when making mechs.
And no i am not talking about the actor Alex Iglesias.

[davoodoo]

Spleenslitta, on 27 August 2016 - 05:09 AM, said:

As a matter of fact i think of ED as a rotten corpse that Russ is attempting to revive by using lightning.

Revive using energy??

[Spleenslitta]

davoodoo, on 27 August 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

Revive using energy??

It's the weirdest form of energy i ever saw. A power generator/reactor that has to pump out the same amount of energy if you fire an ML or hit the primer on an AC5 shell.
Weird stuff i tell you.

[davoodoo]

Spleenslitta, on 27 August 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

It's the weirdest form of energy i ever saw. A power generator/reactor that has to pump out the same amount of energy if you fire an ML or hit the primer on an AC5 shell.
Weird stuff i tell you.

But you dont understand.

I heard on these forums that energy is used to stabilize mech, it takes as much energy to keep it stable from firing 40-70mm cannon as to generate beam of such intense energy to burn hole in the armor equivalent to multiple 40-70mm heat shells...
Mind you though, mech doesnt use energy to stabilize when being hit by the same 20-203mm rounds, not that you would also need to add explosion force and it doesnt use energy to stabilize while walking on hard to traverse terrain like shallow water, mud, rubble, unstable rocks or ******* acid pit or lava at up to 150kph, nor does it need energy to stabilize after 50+ m fall...

Edited by davoodoo, 27 August 2016 - 05:53 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

davoodoo, on 27 August 2016 - 05:44 AM, said:

But you dont understand.

I heard on these forums that energy is used to stabilize mech, it takes as much energy to keep it stable from firing 40-70mm cannon as to generate beam of such intense energy to burn hole in the armor equivalent to multiple 40-70mm heat shells...
Mind you though, mech doesnt use energy to stabilize when being hit by the same 20-203mm rounds and it doesnt use energy to stabilize while walking on hard to traverse terrain like shallow water, mud, rubble, unstable rocks or ******* acid pit or lava at up to 150kph.

Yeah...Which is why we could concider to have a Gyro bar for recoil and maybe TT lookalike stuff happening when we overheat our mechs.
There are looads of other ideas that works too. Unfortunatly i have so little faith in PGI at this point that i have very little belief that they even look at their feedback forums.

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want. All i know is that Russ never posts anything here on the forums but instead takes all his feedback on freakin' Twitter.
When he reads stuff on Twitter and types his replies it takes the same amount of time if he did it here.
Siiigh. I have played maybe 10-15 matches throughout this entire year and the thing that was supposed to be the turning point turned out to be boring too.

[Chavette]

Someone bring me up to speed, if I have a 5PPC or 5LL stalker build, and I alfa, what happens differently compared to the current implementation of taking heat damage on CT?

[Spleenslitta]

Chavette, on 27 August 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

Someone bring me up to speed, if I have a 5PPC or 5LL stalker build, and I alfa, what happens differently compared to the current implementation of taking heat damage on CT?

Well. I heard one guy say he fired 6 PPC's and he only got to 67% heat on PTS1.
I've never done that but i remember being one shot killed by an assault mech with a similar build on the live servers.
He fired 6 or 7 PPC's and died on the spot. We both laughed at the absurdity.
He blew up his huge mech to kill something weighing half as much.

Maybe things are different on PTS2 but i don't care.

[davoodoo]

Chavette, on 27 August 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

Someone bring me up to speed, if I have a 5PPC or 5LL stalker build, and I alfa, what happens differently compared to the current implementation of taking heat damage on CT?

You just shutdown instead of instantly exploding for ppc

and for ll no difference whatsoever maybe youll generate less heat...

Edited by davoodoo, 27 August 2016 - 06:17 AM.

[JaegerDjinn]

Nightmare1, on 26 August 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:

Nice, it's the old, "Everyone disagrees with me, therefore I'm the only one who's right!" defense!

Lol

Here kid, check this out:

https://www.youtube....Pa4HqDhPzkWo1ZA

You can use that to access videos of MWO from Beta up until the present. Compare anything on that link to this:



That's PTS 1 for Energy Draw. Notice how the energy Mechs aren't really affected? Now watch:



Oooh! Energy Mechs are even less affected now, while the ballistic and SRM Mechs take a beating! This isn't about alpha striking kid. It's about balancing the game. My 3xCLPL Timber Wolf Prime is now, essentially, heat neutral. I don't even have to change my fighting style either, since I already fire in volleys of 2 and then 1. No change to my playstyle, but my meta build gets buffed.

Compare that to my poor Quickdraw. It got hammered and can no longer brawl. The important thing for brawlers, is being able to alpha strike with most of their guns, and then turn to shield with their torso. At 50% heat, you can't alpha more than once. Suddenly, there is no reason to equip a brawling loadout on my QKD. I might as well go with LPLs on it too.

That's the problem kid. It's not that the game becomes unplayable or that people have to stagger fire in order to keep their builds. It's that those builds become even more obsolete. To continue with the same example, the brawling QKD-4H is a far cry from meta, but still an effective Mech if played carefully in the current game build. My option to play that style is being removed from the game with this public test though.

The issue is the fact that we have less options now, when the objective was supposedly to balance the game and provide more options. Energy Draw was supposed to let our fun builds and our troll builds be a little more useful compared to the meta. It was supposed to dampen the meta so that people had a reason to take something other than laser boats all the time. Instead, ED only reinforces the fact that there's no reason to ever run anything except laser boats.

My brawling Victors with their three different weapon systems (energy, missiles, and ballistic) are dead. They were already dead Mechs, but now they are skeletal corpses. The same goes for my Atlases. Why bother with either chassis, when my Stalkers and BattleMasters can just keep boating lasers with no real penalties? In addition, speed will become even more important in the current PTS build, so that fast BLR suddenly becomes a powerhouse.

That is the issue behind all of this. It's not a matter of single-button pushers crying, so much as the community as a whole crying out against PGI stripping us of our freedom to choose concerning our builds and playstyles. Everyone is being forced into a sniper or long-range skirmishing role with single weapon systems, and away from our favorite builds of yesteryear.




Bingo.

I like your style, very open but yet see the problem and what the issue is about. But why i really answerred too this one is that self-destruct animation right after 38 minute mark in nerfdom was the best I have seen from PGI. Now that needs too be added too the game.Salute and keep up the good fight.

[Nightmare1]

Sable, on 26 August 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

a pattern of... no imagination? tunnel vision?? stuck on the old while the new meta will leave you behind?

It's naive to think that the PTS will foster mixed builds. Online games have pretty much always been about min/max. Just because ED shakes up the game, it does not mean that there will not be a meta. As my videos show, energy weapons, particularly lasers, remain at the top of the heap when it comes to effectiveness. ED was supposed to fix that, but it didn't. Instead, it only gimped ballistics and PPCs even more, and made the laser vomit meta even more powerful.

WibbsScrapMerc, on 27 August 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

Phase 2 saw over-nerfing of PPC's (base stats should not have been hit) and I frankly would not implement the changes to gauss yet for live (rebalance that outlier later as its own problem- keep charge mechanic and familiar stats for now to reduce culture shock. Give it a modest ED penalty so 2 combined is not THAT much hotter than currently).

Culture shock? They're just resetting it to the way it used to be, albeit, with a longer cooldown.

WibbsScrapMerc, on 27 August 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

Sadly, the conservative fearmongering is drowning out all reasonable feedback (which is allowed to be negative- just reasoned). No wonder Russ uses feedback from a few more reliable sources. Only have yourselves to blame.

Reliable sources? That's a laugh. Russ is not known for making good decisions, and Twitter is not something most people would consider to be "reliable." The fact that Russ can't conduct a proper Townhall without being drunk, or even use his own forums, just illustrates his lack of engagement or respect for the MWO community.

WibbsScrapMerc, on 27 August 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

Very hard to take someone's analysis seriously when they declare that if ED is implemented they will walk (without actually having any set values for ED yet)- that it is the end of times, that individualised ED values to weapons will be incomprehensible (we have that with heat already, duh) etc etc.

I don't think that it's the "If ED is implemented I'll walk!" so much as it's the "If ED is implemented as it currently is, I'll walk!" mentality. Besides, when each successive PTS build is worse than the previous one, how is someone supposed to keep their hopes up?

Tiantara, on 27 August 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

- Funny thing that I'm nearly live on PTS with some pause for work, some stuff, and freelance job... And nearly always see 0% population in queue. Hardly I collect pilots in F.List to make Private Battles in real situation, not by shooting dummy mech on test ground. Doing that is one part. Use build in real battle - another. Here your enemy can preserve useful for him range of fire and you don't even scratch him by LPL. By mixing weapon in so called "non-meta" builds you can softer enemy armor before he come closer.

There are some good things in this statement, but overall, it remains naive. You can't fight in small group engagements and expect that to be reflective of larger combat. For example, in the video I posted previously, I tested against dummy Mechs and then did 1v1 combat with a friend. While these two scenarios give me a good idea of how the Mech will perform in a general setting, I have to look beyond these tests to understand how it will function in a 12v12 engagement.

Simply put, if you extrapolate the PTS experiences to 12v12, it becomes clear very quickly that mixed loadouts will remain statistically small. In fact, they will become less visible, I would say, simply because the PTS in its current build rewards min/maxing even more than the current, live game build does. Watch the video again, and notice how little my energy-based meta Mechs are affected. They build heat so slowly, and dissipate it so quickly, that they can maintain an almost steady rate of fire with only the occasional break for cooling off. Compare that to the mixed builds I ran. Those Mechs were hotter and at a greater disadvantage because they were not optimized like the metas.

Basically, you are free, right not, to run whatever you want and be successful, although you will be handicapped slightly. In the PTS build though, you cannot necessarily run what you want, because PGI's ED system will penalize you so thoroughly, that your TTK will be too short to do anything. It forces you to run the meta instead of what you might enjoy.

Case in point, my brawler Quickdraw will have to be made into a sniper or mid-range skirmisher instead, since brawling in the PTS is effectively dead. PGI is so hapless, that they recognized the fact that brawling weapons like the AC/20 need buffs, but then announced higher energy value for it instead, further penalizing an already marginalized weapon system. What's worse, is that they were not even consistent across the board between the four different types of AC/20s that are in game.

PGI really has no clue regarding how to make an effective ED system.

WibbsScrapMerc, on 27 August 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

I see many test in Test grounds and even thoughts from people who make decision based on video, not actual game. But a few really 8 vs 8 battle. And even so - most to them based only on desire to check: are their build still meta and OP or not. But not in way of searching for new tactic, new builds on mech they newer use before. With all give freedom on PTS players lock themselves into the chains. Why? I have no answer for that question.

Because that's reality. Min/max is how online games play out, and MWO is no exception. Laser vomit and energy weapons remain the best way to achieve min/maxing, so that's what we will be seeing a lot of from now on. Builds that do not effectively min/max will be further marginalized due to the new energy system.

Besides, how effective things will be in large groups is all a function of math. It's very common to have six Mechs focus on one target. If you are generous and assume only a 30-point alpha from each Mech, then that is still 180 points of damage that can be pinpointed onto a single component; enough to kill most Mechs outright. TTK will remain low in large groups simply because large groups know how to coordinate. It's naive to think that large groups will throw away such an advantage simply because the non-meta builds got nerfed again.

Spleenslitta, on 27 August 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

There are looads of other ideas that works too. Unfortunatly i have so little faith in PGI at this point that i have very little belief that they even look at their feedback forums.

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want. All i know is that Russ never posts anything here on the forums but instead takes all his feedback on freakin' Twitter.
When he reads stuff on Twitter and types his replies it takes the same amount of time if he did it here.

Bingo.

jjyn, on 27 August 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

I like your style, very open but yet see the problem and what the issue is about. But why i really answerred too this one is that self-destruct animation right after 38 minute mark in nerfdom was the best I have seen from PGI. Now that needs too be added too the game.Salute and keep up the good fight.

*Chuckle* Thanks!

[Spleenslitta]

Nightmare1, on 27 August 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

It's naive to think that the PTS will foster mixed builds. Online games have pretty much always been about min/max. Just because ED shakes up the game, it does not mean that there will not be a meta. As my videos show, energy weapons, particularly lasers, remain at the top of the heap when it comes to effectiveness. ED was supposed to fix that, but it didn't. Instead, it only gimped ballistics and PPCs even more, and made the laser vomit meta even more powerful.

Yup. The only way they can truly foster mixed builds is if they go all out and go for something complicated rather than the patchwork ED and GH.
There are maybe 6-7 ideas that i know of made by the community that goes all out with that goal in mind. There are probably a lot more....
Unfortunatly i might just be right in that Russ and Paul never visited this feedback forum so these ideas were not even given 1/13000 of a chance of becoming reality.

Some ideas are textwalls (both of mine are) and others are more simple but they went all out to make mixed builds just as viable as boats.
Mechwarrior games should almost have been a mech simulator that takes real skill and patience to master.
But instead we get an advanced Call of Duty version.

10% chance of ammo detonation? That just allows us to stuff our mechs full to the brim with ammo consuming weapons with no worries.
We don't even need the CASE for ¤#%&"
No penalties for having high heat? That means laserboats have to keep an eye on a simple red bar to keep themselves from overheating to death. Easy.

Single heatsinks have no real function even though ideas for how to make them have their own niche role in comparison to DHS have been around for years.
That says PGI's only presence on these forums is through moderators who have no say in the development of the game.

Solutions for how we could get mortars, rifles, binary laser cannons and other weapons have been in the feature suggestion part of the forums for years.
On August 26 2015 i put up a thread for how to get usefull Rifles into MWO without touching it's TT stats much.
Even the dang -3 damage to mech armor was only changed to -2.5 damage. 0.5 damage difference.
And an ammo increase just like the AC's got.

All other stats on the rifles stayed the same - Heat, damage, weight, crit slots, range, low firerate, low velocity. All those stayed true to the TT lore.
I gave 3 different ways to balance them and a few other things that could be adjusted. All that was needed was for Paul to put in the numbers.
Rifles would have been crit seeker guns but without replacing the LBX and MG's.

I also have an idea for mortars to get balanced without touching TT stats except for ammo per tonn.
But i probably won't bother because i know PGI doesn't give a damn.

AC2 and flamers. Ways to make them valuable weapons have been around for a long while in many different forms.
But PGI never paid that any attention.

[Tiantara]

Quote

You can't fight in small group engagements and expect that to be reflective of larger combat. For example, in the video I posted previously, I tested against dummy Mechs and then did 1v1 combat with a friend.

- I'm talking about 8 vs 8 Private lobby games on all maps what a little bit closer to 12 vs 12 than 1 vs 1 or 4 vs 4.
We even have test map with different temperature zones from extreme cold to extreme hot. Where the videos from them? Where play on that map? Where video of 8vs 8 match on some Faction map?
I agree that in duel result depends from pilot skill more than on build. Same build mech can be piloted great or nope. Even in 4 vs 4 you dont get whole picture... but... 8 vs 8 still better.
We have post where all who want do that can write and add each other to friend list to make battles. But still that post not really popular. Thank make me think that most of player prefer to complain than do research when they have ready for that PTS.

[Nightmare1]

I fault the game modes. There's no reason to bring mixed builds to them. Look at MW4. You often needed mixed builds for the missions, because you were fighting at all ranges over long periods of time. You needed that big ballistic for when the enemy got close, and PPCs or LRMs to take out installations at range. However, you had to make sure you had those back-up lasers because the mission lengths made running out of ammunition a very real thing. Since you only had one life, you had to make sure that one Mech you had was versatile.

PGI's best answer to that, is CW, which has been a flop. Defending teams have a powerful advantage while Long Tom makes playing it useless. Even if you have Long Tom on your side, it is too powerful, resulting in too few mission rewards to make CW economical. Add in the fact that, at four lives, there's no reason to run mixed builds. You just need to bring four different min/max meta builds and coordinate with your team regarding which ones to drop.

Think of it this way. What if we had long missions with protect targets? Each lance had to protect a single target from a massed enemy team, and had powerful defenses? The 12 Mechs attacking Mechs would only have one life, while the four defenders would have repair bays, walls, gates, turrets, generators, ammo caches, etc. They may even have a couple AI bots in the form of a point of Mechs, tanks, or choppers. The attackers would need to run mixed builds in order to clear the walls and fight their way inside each of the defense points. The defenders would need to also run mixed builds so that they could effectively fight at range and then brawl once the attackers broke through. The attackers would not be able to use the ammo caches or repair facilities though, since they would not have the personnel onsite to facilitate their use. Defenders would be required to remain in their zones, Domination style, to prevent them from teaming up as a 12-man to engage their attackers en masse.

If the attackers lost three Mechs at each defense point, then they would only have six battered Mechs left to deal with the final defense point and its lance. That sort of dynamic play is what this game needs.

But Russ doesn't want that. He wants e-sports. He wants the min/max builds because that facilitates his e-sports goal. PGI is inept enough, and Russ is egotistical enough, to disregard real player feedback and instead implement an entirely new system that further rewards the energy vomit meta while punishing everything else.

Now that's frustrating.

[Nightmare1]

Tiantara, on 27 August 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

- I'm talking about 8 vs 8 Private lobby games on all maps what a little bit closer to 12 vs 12 than 1 vs 1 or 4 vs 4.
We even have test map with different temperature zones from extreme cold to extreme hot. Where the videos from them? Where play on that map? Where video of 8vs 8 match on some Faction map?
I agree that in duel result depends from pilot skill more than on build. Same build mech can be piloted great or nope. Even in 4 vs 4 you dont get whole picture... but... 8 vs 8 still better.
We have post where all who want do that can write and add each other to friend list to make battles. But still that post not really popular. Thank make me think that most of player prefer to complain than do research when they have ready for that PTS.

Because getting 8v8 onto the test server is nearly impossible. Too many people are too disenchanted with PGI to think that their input will actually be valued and used. Besides, with back-to-back events and Leaderboards, most players would rather grind for the events than give up their free time to test something for which they will receive zero rewards.

In the end, it goes like this:

Some players, such as myself, will run the PTS to see what is coming and to prepare for it. Some will try to provide feedback, knowing that it is a futile gesture but making the effort nonetheless because that effort needs to be made. Others will just choose not to waste their time.

Finally, it's pretty clear from the vids that the laser vomit hasn't changed much at all, so you don't really need to run large groups to see what that entails. The vids, though lacking in 8v8 and 12v12, make it pretty clear that laser vomit is going to be the wave of the future.