Jump to content

Battle Zone = Worst Case Lrm Scenario


19 replies to this topic

#1 Detriitus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 105 posts
  • LocationA long time ago in a galaxy far less explored

Posted 26 August 2016 - 12:36 AM

Adding mechs using uavs to the battle zone was fine, but I think it is happening too often. Learning about uavs and lrm avoidance is important, but once learned I'd like to test my builds in the battle zone regardless of their potential to shoot at uavs. Testing a brawler while being lurmed from 5 different directions is just annoying.

Best would be an off-switch for being lurmed, but maybe you could just make it more infrequent, please?

#2 Mighty Spike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 5,589 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationHoly Beer City of Munich

Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:40 AM

Jup,for newbys really hard and annoying to hear every 10 seconds "incoming missiles" and getting hit from 4-5 different directions at same time. Till they find the firing mech they got nailed form 3 other locations. After getting killed and respawning often you become the first "incoming missile" warning at the respawn point..^^. Dont let more then 4 Enemy mechs spawn at once and the next mech spawn after 2 of the first spawned mechs are killed.
So more then 6 7 mechs at once i n the combat zone and 4/5 of them with lrm is really hard for newby because the area is to small for more enemy mechs. Make a choosable newby mode and or vetran mode. in the newby mode 1Assault 2 Heavys 2 Mediums and 1light and not more then 3 with lrm. for the Veteran mode double or triple that but never more then 5 lrm mechs at same time spawn.Then the people will have fun and can test their builds

#3 Dave Forsey

    Senior Designer

  • Developer
  • Developer
  • 198 posts

Posted 26 August 2016 - 07:38 AM

Yes - a on/off switch sounds like a fine idea.

And I didn't realize that missiles in the air kept tracking you after a respawn. Do they hit? Or is it just the warning system winding down?

Things I'll think about:
- Off by default? Probably yes so new players have to choose to get punished
- Where to put the switch so it won't be missed.

#4 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 6,573 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 26 August 2016 - 03:41 PM

View PostDave Forsey, on 26 August 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

Yes - a on/off switch sounds like a fine idea.

And I didn't realize that missiles in the air kept tracking you after a respawn. Do they hit? Or is it just the warning system winding down?

Things I'll think about:
- Off by default? Probably yes so new players have to choose to get punished
- Where to put the switch so it won't be missed.

Can you incorporate the LRM and start switches? Just put two start points for the same area (Battle Zone) and label one "LRM-Enhanced." That way new players can see what they're getting into - and after all, the idea of training is to punish the trainee in a safe environment so that they're not punished in war.

#5 Exard3k

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God of Death
  • The God of Death
  • 1,010 posts
  • LocationEast Frisia in Germany

Posted 27 August 2016 - 12:00 AM

What is this Battle Zone? Haven't played the tutorial in months.

#6 Detriitus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 105 posts
  • LocationA long time ago in a galaxy far less explored

Posted 27 August 2016 - 05:05 AM

View PostDave Forsey, on 26 August 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

Things I'll think about:
- Off by default? Probably yes so new players have to choose to get punished
- Where to put the switch so it won't be missed.


Thank you for considering.

I would make it less lrms but switched on as default - so new players learn about avoidance without being wiped out. A nice warning about being able to switch it off when entering the battlezone might do the rest of the trick.

#7 762 NATO

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 312 posts
  • LocationUnder the desk of the Magestrix of Canopus

Posted 27 August 2016 - 10:56 PM

Or, alternatively, only one in three or four mechs pops a UAV. That is generally the case in live play. Leave the lurms alone. Give em a break, they are only stock loadouts. As such, can we ever get all the mechs added to the Training Grounds? There are far more mech hit boxes that need learned by new players than the current offerings (like all the clan mechs and everything since 2012).

Cheers!

#8 Detriitus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 105 posts
  • LocationA long time ago in a galaxy far less explored

Posted 28 August 2016 - 10:35 AM

View Post762 NATO, on 27 August 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

Or, alternatively, only one in three or four mechs pops a UAV. That is generally the case in live play. Leave the lurms alone.


That's the thing: The unusual amount of uavs makes the lrms so bad. But maybe you could make a challenge out of this: Shoot down xx uavs in the battle zone to win xy, afterwards they are rare.

#9 Surn

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God of Death
  • The God of Death
  • 1,073 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationSan Diego

Posted 28 August 2016 - 12:08 PM

Wouldn't this be adding lrm/nolrm buckets?

#10 AndTheUgly

    Rookie

  • Knight Errant
  • 1 posts

Posted 29 August 2016 - 12:03 AM

View PostSurn, on 28 August 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

Wouldn't this be adding lrm/nolrm buckets?


This is only about the academy where everyone goes on their own (and with Adams, of course).

#11 Mighty Spike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 5,589 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationHoly Beer City of Munich

Posted 29 August 2016 - 03:37 AM

View PostDave Forsey, on 26 August 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

Yes - a on/off switch sounds like a fine idea.

And I didn't realize that missiles in the air kept tracking you after a respawn. Do they hit? Or is it just the warning system winding down?

Things I'll think about:
- Off by default? Probably yes so new players have to choose to get punished
- Where to put the switch so it won't be missed.


Directly on th Respawn point no but when you start to walk over the water to the dock then yes or on the Bridge to upper then yes. Also AC ,ppc L laser when in Fire line
Dont get me wrong, i like the battle zone.I just give a Feedback what i hear from the people in our newby help programm in the german Forum. For me is it doable to get through. I survived all the Lurmaggedons without even 1 AmsPosted Image I know what to do and how to but for absolutly Mechwarrior newbys is it hard.As i said something like a switch to newby/ Veteran training mode would be awesome. So thx for your Feedback and see ya on the Field Dave o7
j

Edited by Mighty Spike, 29 August 2016 - 06:01 AM.


#12 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 6,573 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 30 August 2016 - 11:29 AM

View PostAndTheUgly, on 29 August 2016 - 12:03 AM, said:


This is only about the academy where everyone goes on their own (and with Adams, of course).

Don't feed the troll - he mistakenly thinks he's being clever.

#13 A Man In A Can

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • LocationRetired

Posted 30 August 2016 - 10:07 PM

View PostDave Forsey, on 26 August 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

Yes - a on/off switch sounds like a fine idea.

And I didn't realize that missiles in the air kept tracking you after a respawn. Do they hit? Or is it just the warning system winding down?

Things I'll think about:
- Off by default? Probably yes so new players have to choose to get punished
- Where to put the switch so it won't be missed.

Honestly, Dave, I think an additional Capt. Adams mission circle or two on indirect weapons and their uses, vs Info War equipment and their effects on the field, would be more important things to focus Academy development attention on than a toggle option to turn AI uav launches on/off in the open battlefield.

Teach new/older players officially that indirect fire from missiles that can come from any direction is normal, is the key strength to that weapon system, and should be expected, but can be countered as well as supported. The toggle option, while quicker to produce, would actually run counter to the above goals and would reinforce the idea among players that indirect fire is only acceptable on the receiving player's terms, not on the firer(s)'.

#14 zudukai

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,707 posts

Posted 03 September 2016 - 11:53 AM

this is just silly, use the buildings, flank around the power plant, or shoot the uav down, i don't think it's that hard and teaches and reinforces good cover use..

on top of that, most mechs in the battlezone are only shooting LRM 5's doing minimal damage at best, yes it's annoying, but you can use that as a tool to spot the source and hunt them down.

#15 Detriitus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 105 posts
  • LocationA long time ago in a galaxy far less explored

Posted 05 September 2016 - 12:29 AM

View PostThatNumbGuy, on 30 August 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

Teach new/older players officially that indirect fire from missiles that can come from any direction is normal, is the key strength to that weapon system, and should be expected, but can be countered as well as supported. The toggle option, while quicker to produce, would actually run counter to the above goals and would reinforce the idea among players that indirect fire is only acceptable on the receiving player's terms, not on the firer(s)'.

View Postzudukai, on 03 September 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

this is just silly, use the buildings, flank around the power plant, or shoot the uav down, i don't think it's that hard and teaches and reinforces good cover use..
on top of that, most mechs in the battlezone are only shooting LRM 5's doing minimal damage at best, yes it's annoying, but you can use that as a tool to spot the source and hunt them down.


Sounds great on paper but does not reflect whats going on in the Battle Zone or in real matches. Why should you learn to rambo in alone when being shot at from 4 different directions with lrms? Why should the battle zone be limited to just this one scenario where you cannot close in without taking care of the uavs? It teaches you nothing about the right timing when flanking and closing in and you simply are not the one to do the uav-shooting when running a srm brawler.

As it is it is just wasting potential. Simply reducing the number of uavs launched would solve the issue without much work. Adding options makes it an interesting tool for the times you do want to play catch with lrms.

#16 zudukai

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,707 posts

Posted 05 September 2016 - 01:15 AM

View PostDetriitus, on 05 September 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:


Sounds great on paper but does not reflect whats going on in the Battle Zone or in real matches. Why should you learn to rambo in alone when being shot at from 4 different directions with lrms? Why should the battle zone be limited to just this one scenario where you cannot close in without taking care of the uavs? It teaches you nothing about the right timing when flanking and closing in and you simply are not the one to do the uav-shooting when running a srm brawler.

As it is it is just wasting potential. Simply reducing the number of uavs launched would solve the issue without much work. Adding options makes it an interesting tool for the times you do want to play catch with lrms.

maybe a simpler option would be to swap some for air/arty so it's a little bit more diverse?

#17 Dave Forsey

    Senior Designer

  • Developer
  • Developer
  • 198 posts

Posted 06 September 2016 - 08:59 AM

Just got back from vacation:

I'll reduce the UAV frequency, though that may not be the problem (because of the limited range).
The problem likely stems from perfect teamwork. Enemy 'Mechs always lock-on when they have line of sight and all concentrate fire on that single target.

Other issues;
- I have no hooks to call strikes
- It's solo only, there is no AI other than "walk to a location in a straight line", and "lock on and fire the appropriate weapon"
- Void Angel: I was thinking an LRM on/off switch only - the battlezone always remains active
- The level is full: can't add more mechs or missions (limit of 32bit machines). The original plan was to periodically change the mix around, but other priorities arose - and changing anything in the Academy kicks off a full QA cycle and they're very busy with other work that benefits a larger number of people. And I'm working on other stuff.

#18 A Man In A Can

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • LocationRetired

Posted 06 September 2016 - 01:15 PM

View PostDave Forsey, on 06 September 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

Just got back from vacation:

The problem likely stems from perfect teamwork. Enemy 'Mechs always lock-on when they have line of sight and all concentrate fire on that single target.

I was just going to respond with this very issue, but you beat me to the punch.

I should add, they also don't respond to sensor countering equipment like ECM. Virtually the moment a direct fire AI mech shoots, LRMs are in flight, UAV or not, ECM/no ECM. Simply put, the AI doesn't follow sensor rules the rest of the players do, and they are also a bit too predictive of player positioning. See about giving the AI a delay in their responses and have them not all be looking your way after defeating some mechs from behind terrain, but still have them turn and fire back if you shoot them. To compensate for this suggested delay in response time, give the Battle Zone AI mechs more of their armor back so it's more a challenge to ninja snipe/poke, but not too much that its too tricky to handle with non-ECM SRM mechs.

For the record, I still stand by my previous suggestion to have an official tutorial mission circle introduced at some point to reduce the new player barrier on mechanics that are at play but not directly explained.

Edited by ThatNumbGuy, 11 September 2016 - 07:42 PM.


#19 Gettothechoppa

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 72 posts

Posted 21 December 2016 - 08:48 PM

View PostDave Forsey, on 26 August 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

Yes - a on/off switch sounds like a fine idea.

And I didn't realize that missiles in the air kept tracking you after a respawn. Do they hit? Or is it just the warning system winding down?

Things I'll think about:
- Off by default? Probably yes so new players have to choose to get punished
- Where to put the switch so it won't be missed.

Missiles stop tracking after the lock is lost and seem to follow a general trajectory based on the data fed to missile guidance at launch, if mech is moving there's a probability some will miss if lock is not maintained. Otherwise high probably the majority will hit within a certain area with lock maintained.
I do notice that LRM's seem to almost randomly launch at a flat trajectory (rather than high arc) when near some objects taller than the mech.

#20 Dave Forsey

    Senior Designer

  • Developer
  • Developer
  • 198 posts

Posted 04 January 2017 - 09:05 AM

The UAV's are stock standard and the AI's get no more information any faster than in the regular game.
They do respond instantly though, and there's only one target out there for them all to concentrate on. They do run out of ammo.

I'm not sure when I can get to this anymore, I'm 100% on the "other project" you may have heard something about.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users