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So... The Clan Erppc


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#1 Gentleman Reaper

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:48 PM

A 15 damage ERPPC is something I've wanted to see for a while, even with the awkward balancing measures it would need. So the question is, what would you do to balance it versus IS PPCs?

#2 Wintersdark

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 07:01 PM

Moar draw; maybe more cooldown.

It's hot enough, really, but maybe a bit good strong overall right now. Lower velocity would be horrible. So, cooldown and draw are our options.

Draw has the upside of not nerfing single-ERPPC mechs (which are generally the worse of the Clam mechs) while preventing/curtailing dual+ cERPPC mechs.

Cooldown hits everyone equally, and serves to push them more and more into long range only.

#3 Gentleman Reaper

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 07:15 PM

Agreed, a draw of maybe 20+ would punish alphas and a cooldown of 7s would bring it down to about 2.1 DPS, versus the IS PPC's 2DPS. It will have a slight DPS advantage, but the long cooldown would punish missed shots.

#4 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 07:17 PM

ISERPPC still gets the shaft here.

#5 Monkey Lover

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 07:37 PM

Dont allow two to be fired at the same time. 30 pin point dmg on about any clan mech is going to really hurt mediums with xl and kill light mechs.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 01 September 2016 - 07:55 PM.


#6 Gentleman Reaper

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 07:40 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

ISERPPC still gets the shaft here.


Well, the low RoF does punish missed shots more than on the IS PPCs, although would higher heat be an option too? I like the thought of a 7s cooldown, maybe even slightly higher, then give cooldown quirks on the Summoner, Adder, and Shadowcat

#7 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 07:53 PM

View PostGentleman Reaper, on 01 September 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:


Well, the low RoF does punish missed shots more than on the IS PPCs, although would higher heat be an option too? I like the thought of a 7s cooldown, maybe even slightly higher, then give cooldown quirks on the Summoner, Adder, and Shadowcat


ROF is not the problem.. it's the heat generated for the damage dealt. Might as well just run an IS PPC instead, despite the min range.

#8 Dee Eight

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 08:04 PM

Look the balance point needs to be the comparison to the C-ER-LL, not to the inner sphere version. Until they get the table top already solved balance values into this game, most players will still take the lower heat / higher damage option over the equal heat/damage option. ER LLs should draw 12 heat for both techs, and should do less damage (8 for IS, 10 for clan) but also shoot further than regular PPCs (IS) or ER-PPCs (clan). If the ranges and heat were as tabletop, then it would come down to deciding between a 5 ton / 12 heat / 8 damage / 570 meter ER LL weapon vs a 7 ton / 10 heat / 10 damage / 540 meter PPC or 7 ton / 15 heat / 10 damage / 690 meter ER PPC for the inner sphere side. And for the clan side it would be 4 tons / 12 heat / 10 damage / 750 meter range ER LL vs 6 ton / 15 heat / 15 damage / 690 meter ER PPC. For the long range shooter, most would tolerate the higher heat to damage ratio of the ER LLs over particle cannons. One of the REAL underlying issues of ED that they haven't really addressed is that while many maps are huge, especially compared to the source tabletop material, the weapon ranges really don't match up to the map areas anymore.

#9 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 08:08 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 01 September 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

Look the balance point needs to be the comparison to the C-ER-LL, not to the inner sphere version. Until they get the table top already solved balance values into this game, most players will still take the lower heat / higher damage option over the equal heat/damage option. ER LLs should draw 12 heat for both techs, and should do less damage (8 for IS, 10 for clan) but also shoot further than regular PPCs (IS) or ER-PPCs (clan). If the ranges and heat were as tabletop, then it would come down to deciding between a 5 ton / 12 heat / 8 damage / 570 meter ER LL weapon vs a 7 ton / 10 heat / 10 damage / 540 meter PPC or 7 ton / 15 heat / 10 damage / 690 meter ER PPC for the inner sphere side. And for the clan side it would be 4 tons / 12 heat / 10 damage / 750 meter range ER LL vs 6 ton / 15 heat / 15 damage / 690 meter ER PPC. For the long range shooter, most would tolerate the higher heat to damage ratio of the ER LLs over particle cannons. One of the REAL underlying issues of ED that they haven't really addressed is that while many maps are huge, especially compared to the source tabletop material, the weapon ranges really don't match up to the map areas anymore.


If we used tabletop to balance things... there would be no need of an IS LL when the Clan ERMED is superior.

Holding to those values for dear life is not productive.

#10 Domenoth

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 08:12 PM

If IS ER PPC got the Clan ER PPC splash, that might make it worth more than the STD PPC. Just a thought.

#11 RestosIII

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 08:23 PM

Honestly, I'm fine with knocking all PPC cooldowns up by a second. And that's coming from a PPC lover.

#12 Jack Shayu Walker

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 08:30 PM

Please, just turn back, go back to 4.6 cooldown PPCs and stop this madness. XD

#13 Pjwned

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 09:17 PM

You wouldn't do anything because with 15 pinpoint damage you might as well throw out any illusion of clan weapons being different but equal.

Edited by Pjwned, 01 September 2016 - 09:18 PM.


#14 Jack Shayu Walker

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 09:45 PM

View PostRestosIII, on 01 September 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

Honestly, I'm fine with knocking all PPC cooldowns up by a second. And that's coming from a PPC lover.


Well as another PPC lover I'd love to see PPCs reverted to their 4.6s Cooldown. If cERPPCs come out of this PTS with a 5+ second Cooldown, and a Power draw of over 16 I think I will have had my fill.

The PPC niche just won't be cultivating the type of gameplay I'm interested in anymore. 30 dmg repeatable PPFLD every 6 seconds feels good, but 15? It feels too clunky to me personally.

#15 Sader325

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 09:53 PM

My favorite ebon jag runs 2 CERPPC.

Personally I find this change pointless, and still fail to understand why IS PPC isn't simply made to match CERPPC with 10 damage and 5 damage splash.

#16 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 10:00 PM

View PostSader325, on 01 September 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

My favorite ebon jag runs 2 CERPPC.

Personally I find this change pointless, and still fail to understand why IS PPC isn't simply made to match CERPPC with 10 damage and 5 damage splash.


I'm pretty sure "lol lore" is still the answer to this, despite having no logical reason other than "not TT specs".

You know how this convo goes.

#17 Mystere

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 10:32 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 01 September 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Moar draw; maybe more cooldown.

It's hot enough, really, but maybe a bit good strong overall right now. Lower velocity would be horrible. So, cooldown and draw are our options.

Draw has the upside of not nerfing single-ERPPC mechs (which are generally the worse of the Clam mechs) while preventing/curtailing dual+ cERPPC mechs.

Cooldown hits everyone equally, and serves to push them more and more into long range only.


I think changes to cooldowns should be compensated with changes to range. The idea is to encourage long-range use of PPCs.

#18 DerMaulwurf

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 10:42 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

ISERPPC still gets the shaft here.


Advantages Clan: heat efficiency, weight, slots, damage per second, alpha damage, raw damage

Advantages IS: quirks

You might as well make IS-PPCs unavailable for mechs without quirks. And even with überquirks the comparison is pretty damn close, since trying to compete with 10 damage for 7 tons against 15 damage for 6 tons leaves you at a ridiculous starting position..

#19 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 10:45 PM

View PostDerMaulwurf, on 01 September 2016 - 10:42 PM, said:


Advantages Clan: heat efficiency, weight, slots, damage per second, alpha damage, raw damage

Advantages IS: quirks

You might as well make IS-PPCs unavailable for mechs without quirks. And even with überquirks the comparison is pretty damn close, since trying to compete with 10 damage for 7 tons against 15 damage for 6 tons leaves you at a ridiculous starting position..


You would need something along the lines of 20% total heat gen reduction for ERPPCs, in addition to any sort of PPC/ERPPC velocity buff before I'd bother.

Even then, I would rather run a regular PPC instead because 3 of them is still better than 2 ERPPCs.

#20 DerMaulwurf

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 11:21 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:


You would need something along the lines of 20% total heat gen reduction for ERPPCs, in addition to any sort of PPC/ERPPC velocity buff before I'd bother.

Even then, I would rather run a regular PPC instead because 3 of them is still better than 2 ERPPCs.


The fact that the IS-ERPPC is always nerfed/buffed in tandem with the IS-PPC is another issue. Internal IS balance has favored the latter for a long time now.

The PPC may reach better heat efficiency with quirks, but it pays for in worse projectile speed, lower range and that ****** min-range. And you're still looking at needing 21tons and 9 slots of IS-PPCs to equal the PPFLD of 2 cER-PPCs (12tons and 4 slots). You need some monster-quirks to compensate for that. And forget mechs that aren't quirked up to the gills.





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