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I Hate The Draw System


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#21 Karl Streiger

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 09:59 AM

View PostKael Posavatz, on 05 September 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:


They ditched info-war last year.

Well simple reason - info warfare with some love would have been a great addition.
While ed with all work in the world would not be sufficient but to change metas on monthly basis (each patch a tweak)

So reason to keep ED is given

Edited by Karl Streiger, 05 September 2016 - 10:00 AM.


#22 Cementi

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 10:25 AM

View PostRouken Vordermark, on 04 September 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:


Hes not saying its impossible. He is saying it is a bad build.


Of course it is. The entire point of it is not to be good but to see how high of an alpha I could build before triggering ghost heat. *edit* actually I think the point was to not only to avoid ghost heat but be able to alpha twice without shutting down.

If I wanted it to be a good build I would build it so a monkey could play it and only have to push one button. Then I too could be in tier 1.

Edited by Cementi, 05 September 2016 - 10:33 AM.


#23 Mystere

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 10:31 AM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 04 September 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

But my 110 kodiak isn't. GH and ED were both designed to limit the maximum alpha being generated by a given mech, regardless of damage type. The only thing is that GH failed spectacularly at that purpose, whereas ED succeeds. People don't seem very happy about that, but so what? ED works far better for the purpose GH was originally intended for, and cannot be gamed the same way GH could.


If GH was intended to limit damage regardless of damage type, then why did PGI intentionally limit damage only by damage type. As such, either PGI goofed, or you're seriously misstating what GH was meant to do.

Edited by Mystere, 05 September 2016 - 10:32 AM.


#24 Mystere

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 11:07 AM

View PostJack Shayu Walker, on 05 September 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

Lol Shadowcat 1x ECM, 1x cERPPC, 2x Streak 4. Works fabulously on Live, PPC CD too long to function properly in close quarters on PTS 3. I'm going to stay if this goes live (because my other two favorite mechs still work), but I sure will say I can understand why the OP is salty.


Assuming the CERPPC damage stays at 15, switch to 2 CERPPCs and cap some heads. Posted Image

#25 Jack Shayu Walker

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 11:18 AM

View PostMystere, on 05 September 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:


Assuming the CERPPC damage stays at 15, switch to 2 CERPPCs and cap some heads. Posted Image


Yeah I know I know. But it used to be that either setup was viable. Now it's go two PPCs or go home on the PTS, and I already have a mech for that.

My shadowcat needs a weapon that's frontloaded, relatively fast firing, and is light enough that other weapons can be mounted. cERPPC used to fit that bill, but now that its been converted to a low RoF high alpha weapon, it simply doesn't anymore.

#26 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 01:32 PM

View PostJack Shayu Walker, on 05 September 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:


And he's being an a** about it.

Truth is, the build might not be optimal, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. You don't even know what weapons are on it, Rouken.

And even if it is bad, calling someone's bad build 'a joke' is just inflammatory. If he's going to be inflammatory, then he doesn't need another user to come save him from return fire criticism.


There is no mystery as to which Dire Wolf build does that kind of damage. It was meta for a while but long, long ago was set aside for multiple reasons. Among those was that the build was not sustainable after certain changes.

I'm not trying saving anyone, they can defend their own inflammatory language if they like. However, when someone makes a balance argument based on an impractical mech design they should expect people to point that out.

View PostCementi, on 05 September 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:


Of course it is. The entire point of it is not to be good but to see how high of an alpha I could build before triggering ghost heat. *edit* actually I think the point was to not only to avoid ghost heat but be able to alpha twice without shutting down.


The problem is that ED was designed to nerf a build that has already been addressed. The high damage, sustainable alpha of laser vomit are not sustainable anymore. They heat cap too quickly to fight off pushes from ballistic boats, and their damage is no longer such that it can dominate PPFLD through sheer damage.

Pointing to the old Space Whale as a problem perfectly encapsulates the entire problem with ED. Its a convoluted system to apply a penalty to a build that's already impractical in most situations.

I went back and watched one of the most recent matches between two of the best teams in the game. Here is the kind of alpha they had.

Kodiaks - 50 PPFLD / 40 (80 double tap) dakka
Timber Wolf - 35 PPFLD
Warhammer - 30 PPFLD / 20 dakka
Hunchback IIC - 20 PPFLD
Jenner IIC - 36 laser

So with the exception of the Kodiak we're already right about where they want alphas, and we got here through removing heat gen quirks and lowering clan heat cap bonus on DHS.

#27 Dantiger

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 01:36 PM

what confuses me about this system is that isn't easier to just nerf heat cap ? the result would be the same, but at least it would force boats to wait for the heat to go down

#28 Jack Shayu Walker

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 04:25 PM

View PostRouken Vordermark, on 05 September 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

I'm not trying saving anyone, they can defend their own inflammatory language if they like. However, when someone makes a balance argument based on an impractical mech design they should expect people to point that out.


But you weren't pointing out anything new.

View PostRouken Vordermark, on 04 September 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

Hes not saying its impossible. He is saying it is a bad build.


I'm pretty sure Cementi did not require clarification on what "Your 92 alpha Dire Wolf is a joke," means. It's fairly obvious what it means.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 05 September 2016 - 04:26 PM.


#29 Mercworks

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 05:46 PM

If the problem is really to restrain high Alphas, then why not put caps on the number of charging weapons, like they did with Gauss?
If the problem is with laserboats, then change the Ghost Heat Mechanic or raise the amount of heat.
They pretty much fixed the Kodiaks by changing the AC10 GH system.

Why destroy the game when you could just tweak it where it's bent?

#30 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 08:19 PM

View PostJack Shayu Walker, on 05 September 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

But you weren't pointing out anything new.

I'm pretty sure Cementi did not require clarification on what "Your 92 alpha Dire Wolf is a joke," means. It's fairly obvious what it means.


Their response certainly did not reflect an understand that using a bad build as the basis for a balance change is a poor way to approach balance.

#31 Jack Shayu Walker

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 08:38 PM

View PostRouken Vordermark, on 05 September 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:


Their response certainly did not reflect an understand that using a bad build as the basis for a balance change is a poor way to approach balance.


Lol, their response was almost entirely return fire **** flinging.

#32 Kmieciu

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 12:14 AM

View Postkapusta11, on 04 September 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:


Your 92 alpha Dire Wolf is a joke.

2xGauss 2xLPL 4xERML used to be a top tier Dire build back in the day. All those weapons fit into the arms so they're as pinpoint as possible. That's 84 damage alpha with 23 DHS. Before C-DHS nerf I remember being able to alpha twice on any map. To this day I remember situations where I 1-shotted 2 mechs (mainly lights and mediums), two times in a row.

#33 L3mming2

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 05:23 AM

View PostMercworks, on 04 September 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

I've been playing this game almost since the beginning. I think generally most revisions have been positive (particularly Ghost Heat). I hate the energy draw system. I can't even understand what problem it's trying to solve. It's supposed to address energy boating but it seems to nerf ballistics hard. I guess if you pay competitively, it may do something for you, but for us PUGs, it just makes the game more frustrating.

I've never said this before, but I would stop playing this game if they implement this.


the problem its trying to solve is the high (50+) repetable sword and board alphas (2GR and 2PPC's, 2CLP + 4CERML, 3isLPL and 4-5 ml...) being able to slam out those kind of pin point alphas 3 or even 4 times in a row wile torso twisting in between is bruttaly effective, and is only posible cos they use loopholes in GH... under ED you can still use those builds but u only get to alpha 1 time and then u will have to start fire in 2 groops cos else your heat efficienty is to bad...

#34 L3mming2

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 05:41 AM

View PostRouken Vordermark, on 05 September 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:


There is no mystery as to which Dire Wolf build does that kind of damage. It was meta for a while but long, long ago was set aside for multiple reasons. Among those was that the build was not sustainable after certain changes.

I'm not trying saving anyone, they can defend their own inflammatory language if they like. However, when someone makes a balance argument based on an impractical mech design they should expect people to point that out.



The problem is that ED was designed to nerf a build that has already been addressed. The high damage, sustainable alpha of laser vomit are not sustainable anymore. They heat cap too quickly to fight off pushes from ballistic boats, and their damage is no longer such that it can dominate PPFLD through sheer damage.

Pointing to the old Space Whale as a problem perfectly encapsulates the entire problem with ED. Its a convoluted system to apply a penalty to a build that's already impractical in most situations.

I went back and watched one of the most recent matches between two of the best teams in the game. Here is the kind of alpha they had.

Kodiaks - 50 PPFLD / 40 (80 double tap) dakka
Timber Wolf - 35 PPFLD
Warhammer - 30 PPFLD / 20 dakka
Hunchback IIC - 20 PPFLD
Jenner IIC - 36 laser

So with the exception of the Kodiak we're already right about where they want alphas, and we got here through removing heat gen quirks and lowering clan heat cap bonus on DHS.


in the current PTS(3) the Dakka boats DPS is lowerd quite a bit too... (just look at the CD of the AC5 family, the staple for most dakka boats...) the reason why its as high as it is (with quirks adding to manny chassy's on top) in life is to make them compete with the high repetable alpha builds...

if those builds are less effective on PTS then the dakka dps (and dakka quirks) can be roled back to..

#35 L3mming2

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 05:49 AM

View PostDantiger, on 05 September 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

what confuses me about this system is that isn't easier to just nerf heat cap ? the result would be the same, but at least it would force boats to wait for the heat to go down


nerf heatcap would not help vs ballistics (anyone want a quad UAC20 dire?) ore gauss boats

a mech like the 4UAC10 kodiak would be tottaly op...

so the meta with a 30 point heat cap would be the higest posible alpha whit less than 30 heat you can carry...

#36 Zionkan

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 06:00 AM

View PostL3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 05:49 AM, said:


nerf heatcap would not help vs ballistics (anyone want a quad UAC20 dire?) ore gauss boats

a mech like the 4UAC10 kodiak would be tottaly op...

so the meta with a 30 point heat cap would be the higest posible alpha whit less than 30 heat you can carry...

Would be easyer than u think.
On live u can already only shoot 2 Gauss at once, simply extend this rule for all ballistic (k maybe only 10 and 20s) and ppcs so that u cannnot fire 2 gauss+ 2 ppc or 4 uac10/20 in one shot.

#37 POOTYTANGASAUR

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 06:30 AM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 04 September 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:


But my 110 kodiak isn't. GH and ED were both designed to limit the maximum alpha being generated by a given mech, regardless of damage type. The only thing is that GH failed spectacularly at that purpose, whereas ED succeeds. People don't seem very happy about that, but so what? ED works far better for the purpose GH was originally intended for, and cannot be gamed the same way GH could.

Yes your 110 kodiak is a joke and people keep trying to say that ED can't be bypassed, LOL. If energy draw goes live in any form, it will create some pretty monstrous metas that we haven't had to deal with for a while. Boats that function just fine under the ED will be king. There are a few builds that they can't nerf without completely crippling certain weapon systems. Energy draw nerfs mixed builds and ballistics. All energy draw will do is kill player base. It makes even less sense than ghost heat lol.

Edited by POOTYTANGASAUR, 06 September 2016 - 06:32 AM.


#38 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 06:42 AM

View PostMystere, on 05 September 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:


If GH was intended to limit damage regardless of damage type, then why did PGI intentionally limit damage only by damage type. As such, either PGI goofed, or you're seriously misstating what GH was meant to do.


Except... they did admit they goofed. In one of the first town halls where ED was mentioned as a twinkle in Russ' eye, he stated GH failed at its purpose for that very reason. The words "it failed" were used, very specifically. It's a case of PGI not thinking through how to break a system the way an average person who plays the game would.

Interestingly, when people tried bypassing it with the Nova in the test server with a 6x ERMLas and 6x ERSLas, they immediately linked Clan mediums and smalls together, and both ER and Pulse, before live release of the Clans even happened. The only reason to do that was to limit maximum alpha output. However, it was done so hodge podgey that everyone and their mother still found ways to bypass that.

Though I will admit, the old 6x6 Nova was terrifyingly effective. XD

View PostJack Shayu Walker, on 05 September 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:


Yeah I know I know. But it used to be that either setup was viable. Now it's go two PPCs or go home on the PTS, and I already have a mech for that.

My shadowcat needs a weapon that's frontloaded, relatively fast firing, and is light enough that other weapons can be mounted. cERPPC used to fit that bill, but now that its been converted to a low RoF high alpha weapon, it simply doesn't anymore.


Personally, I love it. Though I could still love it at 14 damage. The Shadow Cat was always intended to be sneaky. An assassin of a mech. Appearing, hitting with a devastating blast, and vanishing. Channel your inner Nova Cat mechwarrior, padawan. The high damage low ROF C-ERPPC work wonderfully on it, especially, since the mech is slippery enough to hit and vanish before the enemy can get a lock on your position. :3

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 06 September 2016 - 06:44 AM.


#39 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 07:14 AM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 04 September 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:


But my 110 kodiak isn't.



Actually, it is. There is no top tier Kodiak with an alpha that high. If you aren't doing dakka or Dual Gauss, dual ER PPC, your build isn't really relevant anyway.

View PostKmieciu, on 06 September 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:

2xGauss 2xLPL 4xERML used to be a top tier Dire build back in the day. All those weapons fit into the arms so they're as pinpoint as possible. That's 84 damage alpha with 23 DHS. Before C-DHS nerf I remember being able to alpha twice on any map. To this day I remember situations where I 1-shotted 2 mechs (mainly lights and mediums), two times in a row.


Yeah, but then adjustments were made and it was a pretty much non-existent build in high level play so what's the issue? Why is Energy Draw needed to address a build that isn't an issue?

#40 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 07:22 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 06 September 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:



Actually, it is. There is no top tier Kodiak with an alpha that high. If you aren't doing dakka or Dual Gauss, dual ER PPC, your build isn't really relevant anyway.



Perhaps, but my real point with the 110 Kodiak is that you can output 110 damage, without triggering any Ghost Heat, on a reasonably mobile platform. And god help any mech that gets in its range. The Ghost Heat system is so utterly flawed at capping damage that, while people might dislike both GH and ED on principle, ED is a better system in that it actually does what it was set out to do. Or at least gets far closer to it than GH ever did.

As for promoting weapon variety, they still have a chance for it. After all, weapon variety is not the goal of either GH or ED. It isn't going to be via ED itself, but cooldowns, however. The longer the range, the harder the hit, the lower the cooldown. The shorter the range, the lighter the damage, the faster the cooldown. Combined with the 30 damage draw, you would probably see more bracket builds as a result. Bigger mechs might not necessarily have much more potential firepower in any given range bracket, but they would be far more flexible in that they could more easily operate at several engagement ranges.

Noticing this a lot with the PTS ERPPC. Hot, slow recharge but high damage at range is not something you want in a knife fight. However, supplementing it with, say, SRMs or an autocannon for closer range fights makes for a very well rounded machine.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 06 September 2016 - 07:27 AM.






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