65 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Pariah Devalis, on 06 September 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

Perhaps, but my real point with the 110 Kodiak is that you can output 110 damage, without triggering any Ghost Heat, on a reasonably mobile platform. And god help any mech that gets in its range. The Ghost Heat system is so utterly flawed at capping damage that, while people might dislike both GH and ED on principle, ED is a better system in that it actually does what it was set out to do. Or at least gets far closer to it than GH ever did.

What weapons though? If that's your real point then that isn't a good point at all. Who cares how much damage you are outputting if the build isn't good? If the build is out done by a dakka build with a 20-30 damage alpha already, then how is limiting alphas going to help game balance?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 06 September 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

Perhaps, but my real point with the 110 Kodiak is that you can output 110 damage, without triggering any Ghost Heat

Whether it triggers ghost heat or not doesn't really matter, the practicality IS what matters. I can load up the Dire Star right now and still get one kill (and only one) and no amount of heat will change that fact. That alpha potential isn't capped, but what IS limited is DPS which is what heat is supposed to do to begin with. For all its problems, ghost heat does one thing overly well, it limits the overall efficiency of single type boats which is the important factor (which makes mixed builds more of a thing).

[L3mming2]

Zionkan, on 06 September 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

Would be easyer than u think.
On live u can already only shoot 2 Gauss at once, simply extend this rule for all ballistic (k maybe only 10 and 20s) and ppcs so that u cannnot fire 2 gauss+ 2 ppc or 4 uac10/20 in one shot.

the fact that u need to limmit it whit a hole set of hard limits makes it a bed system for me, wile we are at it we can forse stock builds for everyone and balance those with quirks...

[Pariah Devalis]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 September 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

What weapons though? If that's your real point then that isn't a good point at all. Who cares how much damage you are outputting if the build isn't good? If the build is out done by a dakka build with a 20-30 damage alpha already, then how is limiting alphas going to help game balance?

It isn't that my point isn't a good point. It is that your angle of argument is not the same as mine. Mine is firmly rooted in the indisputable fact that GH failed miserably at capping damage per alpha strike, whereas ED does not fail at it.

Your argument seems to be that the low TTK damage threshold is already reached regardless of the poison we drink, be it GH or ED, and I don't argue that. So long as we have perfectly predictable, perfectly pinpoint weapons fire in this game, I don't think that can be resolved.

Certainly not without some sort of convoluted system to regulate it. There are no easy outs, here. Whatever the solution, regardless of how complete it might be, there will be much gnashing of teeth and tears.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 06 September 2016 - 07:33 AM.

[L3mming2]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 September 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

What weapons though? If that's your real point then that isn't a good point at all. Who cares how much damage you are outputting if the build isn't good? If the build is out done by a dakka build with a 20-30 damage alpha already, then how is limiting alphas going to help game balance?

if the alpha builds are nerfed with ED the dakka builds can get lower DPS as they dont need to compeet anymore vs those high alphas... the pts already includes a load of nerfs to dakka cd... the AC5's have a cd of 2,3 now... the jamm time of the UAC was increased, the jamm chance on the big ones to...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

L3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

if the alpha builds are nerfed with ED the dakka builds can get lower DPS as they dont need to compeet anymore vs those high alphas... the pts already includes a load of nerfs to dakka cd... the AC5's have a cd of 2,3 now... the jamm time of the UAC was increased, the jamm chance on the big ones to...

The point is that the game just becomes an arms race as to who can spit out 30 points alphas the best. That's what all builds will devolve into. The idea of sustained builds vs burst will not really be a thing anymore, lighter mechs will just have lower sustained damage than the rest.

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 September 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

The point is that the game just becomes an arms race as to who can spit out 30 points alphas the best. That's what all builds will devolve into. The idea of sustained builds vs burst will not really be a thing anymore, lighter mechs will just have lower sustained damage than the rest.

I suppose I cannot personally see the problem with that. They could alternatively switch to short range high ROF and get that damage back and DPS back, at much higher risk. However, isn't that always the risk:reward assessment of brawlers?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 06 September 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

However, isn't that always the risk:reward assessment of brawlers?

Generally yes, but this makes things more one dimensional since before you had both DPS vs Burst AND Long vs Short range, with ED you really only have Long vs Short range.

[L3mming2]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 September 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

The point is that the game just becomes an arms race as to who can spit out 30 points alphas the best. That's what all builds will devolve into. The idea of sustained builds vs burst will not really be a thing anymore, lighter mechs will just have lower sustained damage than the rest.

thats not thru shomthing like the boom jager works on the pts (even with the heat penalty of 10 on alpha) and its not a 30 point alpha and not a dps mech.. shure its hot when you alpha but you can still fire over 3 times, and if u stagger your fire with 0.5s in between when you get hot its perfectly viable... with a load of builds its a active choice (on the pts) do i alpha for the kill (and will that be enough to get the kill) , ore do i stager fire for sustaind dps... right now on life its ore stare dps, ore alpha twist alpha twist... and the choice of wich one you do is made in the mechlab before the match..

[Quicksilver Aberration]

L3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

shure its hot when you alpha but you can still fire over 3 times, and if u stagger your fire with 0.5s in between when you get hot its perfectly viable

It isn't viable in live and ED doesn't change its viability. AC20s are still terrible brawling weapons and have been since the various over-nerfs of the boom jager era.

L3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

do i alpha for the kill (and will that be enough to get the kill)

Unless its the last one mech, no good pilot will be alpha-ing for the kill because the penalty is too harsh to actually be worth it

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 September 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[L3mming2]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 September 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

Generally yes, but this makes things more one dimensional since before you had both DPS vs Burst AND Long vs Short range, with ED you really only have Long vs Short range.

there still is DPS vs BURST on pts.. all those mechs with 2 fire groops can make the desision to alpha if they think it will nett them the kill. the risk vs reward for the alpha is just higher.. and there are still some burst oriented builds like boom jagers, marounders, EBJ (only gets 6 penalty heat now to alpha 2 CUAC20's)...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

L3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

the risk vs reward for the alpha is just higher...

I understand that, but the point is that the risk DOES NOT match the reward for alphaing to the point they are not viable unless your alpha will not draw more than 30 energy.

L3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

and there are still some burst oriented builds like boom jagers, marounders, EBJ (only gets 6 penalty heat now to alpha 2 CUAC20's)...

None of those are good mechs, and haven't been for a while.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 September 2016 - 08:06 AM.

[Alteran]

Question folks: How high of an Alpha Strike is too high. Forget the weapon configuration, just put a number on it.

10? 20? 30? 40?

Had a poll going before I had to go out of town for work and it seems to start going 50/50 at 35+

Here it is: http://mwomercs.com/...ha-strike-poll/

Point is this, what is the magic number that people want to see ED limit the Alpha Strike to? Oooops sorry won't call it an Alpha Strike, we'll call it a single fire volley.

I've been reading up from the last week of posts and everyone can agree that having your mech shot out from under you in 2-3 volleys sucks. Except from the matches I play and observe if I'm dead, the typical build where the laser vomit boat has 6-10 medium lasers are split into 2-3 weapons groups.

ED doesn't prevent an Alpha Strike, it just penalizes you heavily for doing so. So the match I just left, with a Battlemaster with 7 MPL can still Alpha, but from seeing his build and weapons groups he isn't that dumb. He'll fire off his weapon groupings of 3 (18 damage) and 4 (24 damage) MPL and keep blasting out 42 damage total damage as his weapons cycle.

What people hope ED will do is already being done in GH. The majority of players right now are using multiple weapon groups to keep their heat down. The 'smart' players understand this and use the weapon groups to their advantage.

I'll be honest again, I think that developing ED was a waste of developers time, energy (no pun intended...), and money. What most people hoped that ED would do is being done already by a majority of the player base. ED in no way shape or fashion will affect the builds or firing patterns of those that already use the multiple fire groups. I know that my builds are not affected and I would bet real money that most people posting here won't see any differences in how they play or build their mechs either.

So you know what, bring on ED, it won't make a real difference in play style or builds.

[Gas Guzzler]

Pariah Devalis, on 06 September 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

It isn't that my point isn't a good point. It is that your angle of argument is not the same as mine. Mine is firmly rooted in the indisputable fact that GH failed miserably at capping damage per alpha strike, whereas ED does not fail at it.

I guess I care more about actual viability than whatever arbitrary massive indominus alpha someone can cook up in the mechlab. Remember, in the poptart days a Banshee-3M could load up on a 58 damage alpha but no one cared.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 06 September 2016 - 08:19 AM.

[L3mming2]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 September 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

It isn't viable in live and ED doesn't change its viability. AC20s are still terrible brawling weapons and have been since the various over-nerfs of the boom jager era.


Unless its the last one mech, no good pilot will be alpha-ing for the kill because the penalty is too harsh to actually be worth it

ive tested them extensivly on the pts... AC40's are good.. they have been buffed too btw, there cd is only 4 s now...

yes its better to let the ennemy mech shoot at your cherry red ct for a other 1,5s when u could finich him right now ...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

L3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

ive tested them extensivly on the pts... AC40's are good.. they have been buffed too btw, there cd is only 4 s now...

They aren't better than SRMs though, which have been the goto brawl weapon since the re-balance actually made brawling a thing. ED does not change that.

L3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

yes its better to let the ennemy mech shoot at your cherry red ct for a other 1,5s when u could finich him right now ...

This is a lifeboat scenario, it is a very rare scenario that does not really display the reward of alphas. Basically all you are saying is in a 1 v 1 or you are about to die you can get an alpha off. That's not viable, that's a parting shot where you say screw it I'm about to die anyway.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Pariah Devalis, on 06 September 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

Personally, I love it. Though I could still love it at 14 damage. The Shadow Cat was always intended to be sneaky. An assassin of a mech. Appearing, hitting with a devastating blast, and vanishing. Channel your inner Nova Cat mechwarrior, padawan. The high damage low ROF C-ERPPC work wonderfully on it, especially, since the mech is slippery enough to hit and vanish before the enemy can get a lock on your position. :3

I've managed to convert the mech to a usable state using an Artemis SRM6. But what made the mech fun before PTS was using MASC to locust dance. You could pop out, fire, and then throw yourself back into cover before return fire could come, and you could do that repeatedly. If you mixed it up with where you popped out, the enemy had a hopeless time getting good trades.

On the PTS you can still do it, but the fast pace is gone. You fire, pull back, and then have a smoke break before going in again. With that MASC and 6 JJs, I need my Shadowcat to give me that high octane action I crave. I'm sorta achieving that by dropping two DHS and then replacing my two Streak 4s with one cSRM6+Artemis and one cSSRM6, that way I have a freefire weapon to shoot while the PPC is on its cooldown.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 06 September 2016 - 08:29 AM.

[L3mming2]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 September 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

I understand that, but the point is that the risk DOES NOT match the reward for alphaing to the point they are not viable unless your alpha will not draw more than 30 energy.


None of those are good mechs, and haven't been for a while.

ofcorce they are not whit GH alphaing them gets you more than 56% heat...
on the PTS however the ebonyjag with 2UAC20 can alpha for only 27% heat...
the AC40 alphas on the pts for 37% (and with chainfire 0.5s delay no penalty at all)

how relevant is it that these havent been good builds in a wile, they have been utterly shafted by ghost heat the hole time...

Edited by L3mming2, 06 September 2016 - 08:27 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

L3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

the AC40 alphas on the pts for 37% (and with chainfire 0.5s delay no penalty at all)

That's still hot compared to SRMs, after all that is 10 extra heat for an alpha that normally generates only 12 heat.

Also, no one will use UAC20s with the 8 second jam chance, you are more likely to see the LBX20/6 SPL build than the 2 UAC20 build, and even then there are better mechs than the Ebjag at brawling.

Edit: After looking at smurfy's unless there is a bug, the difference between live and the PTS should be around 1.52 heat, they should be generating roughly the same heat penalty so I'm gonna have to double check your numbers because that seems very off. Unless you are still talking UAC20s on the Ebjag and not the Boom Jager.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 September 2016 - 08:35 AM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 September 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

I guess I care more about actual viability than whatever arbitrary massive indominus alpha someone can cook up in the mechlab. Remember, in the poptart days a Banshee-3M could load up on a 58 damage alpha but no one cared.

This! TTK was great during the poptart era!

Alphas where a lot lower during the poptart era!

Instead of implementing ED...

#MakeVictorsFlyAgain