70 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Kuaron, on 11 September 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

@ Dacoodoo: Sorry, I didn't know "volley fire" was already a set term in the TT.
So how did it work?
(The Sarna link mainly explains how it does not work, doesn't it?)

In any case, dealing the damage to the same point is the only point of "alpha" in MWO. If it is simulated in the TT by a penalty, it fits perfectly well: It would reflect (in an adjusted MWO) the difficulty of hitting with your second weapon group, after cooling down a bit, the same component you hit with your first.

Example from sarna.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=14&l=stock
This is how this thing fired in turns
1)3ppc
2)3ppc
3)2ppc, vented all heat
4)3ppc
5)3ppc
6)2ppc
and so forth.

No not rly, the point of alpha in mwo is minimal face time or maximum damage in short amount of time. No one is gonna wait for you to cycle your weapons before they go into cover, start twisting or firing back.
And theres 0 penatly to firing in tt... 6 mlas will be as accurate as 16 mlas.

Kuaron, on 11 September 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

Yeah... no.
I already explained why firing in the same turn in TT is not the same as firing in one alpha in MWO. If you don't get it, read again please.

http://www.sarna.net...strike_(Tactic)
"An "alpha strike" is when a BattleMech attacks with all of its weapons at the same time."

Edited by davoodoo, 12 September 2016 - 06:09 AM.

[Pjwned]

Well, I guess OP partly got their wish since the latest PTS update has DHS add only 1 heat capacity as well as nerfing heat skills in the mech tree, so it's a bit of a compromise I guess even though the 30 heat cap crowd are largely idiots.

I think it's stupid to nerf heat capacity like that but I guess at least it's not removing any and all extra heat capacity either so maybe it won't be a complete disaster.

[kapusta11]

Pjwned, on 13 September 2016 - 12:11 AM, said:

Well, I guess OP partly got their wish since the latest PTS update has DHS add only 1 heat capacity as well as nerfing heat skills in the mech tree, so it's a bit of a compromise I guess even though the 30 heat cap crowd are largely idiots.

I think it's stupid to nerf heat capacity like that but I guess at least it's not removing any and all extra heat capacity either so maybe it won't be a complete disaster.

I wouldn't call them idiots. Low cap coupled with HIGH dissipation can work. It will just turn energy boats into dps mechs and that will decrease gameplay diversity.

[davoodoo]

kapusta11, on 13 September 2016 - 12:25 AM, said:

I wouldn't call them idiots. Low cap coupled with HIGH dissipation can work. It will just turn energy boats into dps mechs and that will decrease gameplay diversity.

First there would need to be high dissipation.

But pts4 nerfed it

[Pjwned]

kapusta11, on 13 September 2016 - 12:25 AM, said:

I wouldn't call them idiots. Low cap coupled with HIGH dissipation can work. It will just turn energy boats into dps mechs and that will decrease gameplay diversity.

Increased dissipation wouldn't make up for literally no extra heat capacity.

[FupDup]

Pjwned, on 13 September 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

Increased dissipation wouldn't make up for literally no extra heat capacity.

If the diss was increased by enough of a margin, it would absolutely make up for it for most builds. Doing that would basically make the heat bar spike up close to the top instantly but dip back down almost as quickly...just like the PTS "Power Draw" energy bar does right now.

[Andi Nagasia]

we need True DHS, all Large Lasers took a hit, and PPCs as well, in Mechs that cant Boat SHSs

[Pjwned]

FupDup, on 13 September 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

If the diss was increased by enough of a margin, it would absolutely make up for it for most builds. Doing that would basically make the heat bar spike up close to the top instantly but dip back down almost as quickly...just like the PTS "Power Draw" energy bar does right now.

I mean...if you wanted to increase it way beyond lore DHS and make it something like 0.3 or 0.4 dissipation then yeah maybe, otherwise no.

If we're just talking about 0.2 dissipation "truedub" DHS then that wouldn't be enough if extra heat capacity was completely removed, unless you just want to completely **** every single energy boat in the ***.

Edited by Pjwned, 13 September 2016 - 09:28 PM.

[kapusta11]

Pjwned, on 13 September 2016 - 09:28 PM, said:

I mean...if you wanted to increase it way beyond lore DHS and make it something like 0.3 or 0.4 dissipation then yeah maybe, otherwise no.

If we're just talking about 0.2 dissipation "truedub" DHS then that wouldn't be enough if extra heat capacity was completely removed, unless you just want to completely **** every single energy boat in the ***.

In TT everything is balanced around 10 sec turn, including weapon cooldowns and heat dissipation. A PPC can be fired once every 10 sec and one double heat sink can dissipate 2 points of heat every 10 sec (0.2h/s). MWO on the other hand has on average 2.5x faster cooldowns yet dissipation remains the same, well it would've been the same with 0.2h/s "truedubs". The real truedub would dissipate 0.5h/s per DHS, 2.5x faster cooldowns = 2.5x more dissipation.

[Crushko]

A 30 Heat Cap would be totally over the top and lead to a rollercoaster of balancing decisions around it.

At the end you would have to lower weapon heat values for a smoke and mirrors effect.

Edited by Crushko, 14 September 2016 - 12:26 AM.

[xengk]

Blender Battletech is something you want to check out if you want to experience 30 heat cap, with 10 second cooldown on ALL weapon, and only stock mechs.
Bonus weapon convergence and vehicles.

[Greyhart]

xengk, on 14 September 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

Blender Battletech is something you want to check out if you want to experience 30 heat cap, with 10 second cooldown on ALL weapon, and only stock mechs.
Bonus weapon convergence and vehicles.

Did that also have a Cone of Fire?

[Leopardo]

blah - guys - cant be heat cap for all engines be the same - bigger engine bigger heat cap coz - moar HS inside of it.
or its the problem?

[ScarecrowES]

Leopardo, on 14 September 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

blah - guys - cant be heat cap for all engines be the same - bigger engine bigger heat cap coz - moar HS inside of it.
or its the problem?

There's no direct link between engine size and heat requirements, which is why capacity based on engine size doesn't work.

Example... Warhawk at 85 tons has smaller engine than Kodiak at 100 tons. However, most Kodiak build have lower heat needs than most Warhawk builds.

There's also the issue where a me h may mount a smaller engine specifically for the sake of mounting more weapons/cooling.

[davoodoo]

xengk, on 14 September 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

Blender Battletech is something you want to check out if you want to experience 30 heat cap, with 10 second cooldown on ALL weapon, and only stock mechs.
Bonus weapon convergence and vehicles.

And i already see problem.

archer 2k, could fire both lrm15 heat neutral, in this however it heats up mech considerably.
30 heat cap just doesnt work.
**** got nothing to do with tt heat system.

Edited by davoodoo, 14 September 2016 - 07:42 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

There's already a large enough advantage for larger engines, tying heat cap to engine size would, like Scarecrow said, invalidate mechs with fixed or low max engine sizes, and would give little reason to vie for smaller engines if you don't have the means to fully use your increased firepower. I would honestly like to see twist rates and such decoupled from engine size as well and have it fixed for each mech chassis.

[ScarecrowES]

Gentleman Reaper, on 14 September 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

There's already a large enough advantage for larger engines, tying heat cap to engine size would, like Scarecrow said, invalidate mechs with fixed or low max engine sizes, and would give little reason to vie for smaller engines if you don't have the means to fully use your increased firepower. I would honestly like to see twist rates and such decoupled from engine size as well and have it fixed for each mech chassis.

Thanks to quirks, twist rates might as well be arbitrarily chosen anyway. For all intents and purposes, PGI gives each mech whatever values it feels like setting, and adds quirk to make it so. I would have no problem eliminating the illusion of coupling entirely.

[xengk]

Greyhart, on 14 September 2016 - 04:19 AM, said:

Did that also have a Cone of Fire?

Yes.
Notice the transparent outer red circle that expand or shrink when the mech is moving.
And disappear when the player have a lock on.

davoodoo, on 14 September 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

And i already see problem.

archer 2k, could fire both lrm15 heat neutral, in this however it heats up mech considerably.
30 heat cap just doesnt work.
**** got nothing to do with tt heat system.

that 2k is still heat neutral after firing the LRM15, he is back to 0 heat before the LRM15 finishing cycling.
the 2 LL bring him to 70% heat and start cooling down, however he fires the LRM15s again and follow up with an alpha strike, shutting him down.

It got worst when the jenner's heatsink got knockout.
overheat from firing 2 medium laser.

[davoodoo]

xengk, on 14 September 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

that 2k is still heat neutral after firing the LRM15, he is back to 0 heat before the LRM15 finishing cycling.
the 2 LL bring him to 70% heat and start cooling down, however he fires the LRM15s again and follow up with an alpha strike, shutting him down.

It got worst when the jenner's heatsink got knockout.
overheat from firing 2 medium laser.

Yet heat penatlies already kick in...

Edited by davoodoo, 14 September 2016 - 09:41 AM.

[Pjwned]

kapusta11, on 13 September 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

In TT everything is balanced around 10 sec turn, including weapon cooldowns and heat dissipation. A PPC can be fired once every 10 sec and one double heat sink can dissipate 2 points of heat every 10 sec (0.2h/s). MWO on the other hand has on average 2.5x faster cooldowns yet dissipation remains the same, well it would've been the same with 0.2h/s "truedubs". The real truedub would dissipate 0.5h/s per DHS, 2.5x faster cooldowns = 2.5x more dissipation.

Just going to note that "10 second turn" meant absolutely nothing in TT, and that saying anything was balanced around that concept doesn't make sense.

That said, if you wanted to go as far as increasing DHS dissipation to 0.5 per second then that could make up for no extra heat capacity whatsoever, but it would still be lame for energy boats (similar to how it is now on PTS but it's not as bad on PTS) since if they ever dared to fire all their weapons at once then they would shut down immediately afterwards, which nearly everybody seems to want because they have a raging hate hard-on for energy boats.

I don't really understand why it's so important to flatten the heat cap in this game though since people seem to act like the extra heat capacity from heatsinks goes against TT so much, even though it really doesn't go against TT at all. Using the Warhawk as an example again in TT, it doesn't necessarily shut down from firing all 4 of its ER PPCs at once because of the heat buffer from its 20 DHS which results in only 20 heat generated for the mech, and in MWO the extra heat capacity acts exactly like the heat buffer from heatsinks that you see in TT; the reason that people get confused about this is because heat generation and dissipation are obviously handled a lot differently in a video game rather than a turn-based board game, so in order to simulate that extra heat buffer we just have heatsinks adding to our heat capacity in addition to dissipating heat.

Edited by Pjwned, 14 September 2016 - 11:46 PM.