203 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 12 September 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

People have been asking for this MINUS that ED abomination.... MINUS ED... WITHOUT ED!

omg!

Again; test it. I know you think I'm some ED poster boy here; but I'd FAR rather LC/HD and no stupid GH or ED. Do what we can with it, so we can go to the table with real data (not just theorycrafting), so we can say "Here, look, the lower cap worked. Try increasing dissipation too; maybe we don't really need ED or GH after all".

But based off actual play, rather than just people wishlisting.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

Fine, but when you see fewer lasers and more ballistics, don't act surprised...

That's why I think energy weapons need to get unnerfed, and that includes making up for the energy quirk nerfs that have been getting doled out the past few months to mechs that aren't even meta anymore.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

That's why I think energy weapons need to get unnerfed, and that includes making up for the energy quirk nerfs that have been getting doled out the past few months to mechs that aren't even meta anymore.

If we have to undo a bunch of old nerfs in order to make up for the new PTS nerfs, wouldn't it be less complicated to just undo some of the PTS nerfs?

Edited by FupDup, 12 September 2016 - 11:08 AM.

[davoodoo]

And this dissipation is a joke, you want high dissipation but low alphas?? i think of something like 0.8 per dhs(twice of tt dhs adjusted for ppc cooldown)

Stops high alphas while allowing vairety of dps builds.

Edited by davoodoo, 12 September 2016 - 11:15 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

If we have to undo a bunch of old nerfs in order to make up for the new PTS nerfs, wouldn't it be less complicated to just undo some of the PTS nerfs?

Undoing the PTS nerfs wouldn't be enough. Don't get me wrong the PTS nerfs need to go, but I'm ok with them reducing the necessity of the coolrun/containment skills at the same time as well.

davoodoo, on 12 September 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

Stops high alphas while allowing vairety of dps builds.

Yes, because we want this game to be bland and only about raw DPS.
High alphas are just apart of this game, we need to accept it and figure out how to both keep the absurd ones in check (Space Whale, short duration Laser Knight) while allowing things like Dakka a place in the meta.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2016 - 11:20 AM.

[Wintersdark]

kapusta11, on 12 September 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Heat cap in TT is based on how many heat sinks you have. 30 pts heat scale is a separate thing.

It's true that dissipation in MWO is almost the same as in TT, weapon cooldowns however are not.

Yeah, weapon DPS is generally pushed way, way up.

Mind you, this is all falling into "FPS vs. turn based tabletop with a basically random arbitrary turn duration".

I'll simply accept that I'm wrong in regards to Tabletop. I'm not really interested in pursuing that as it's not relevant.

All I care about is testing what we've got, and generating as much usable data as I can in the process.

If people would rather just sit in here and rant instead, they're welcome to continue doing that.

Good luck with it.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Undoing the PTS nerfs wouldn't be enough. Don't get me wrong the PTS nerfs need to go, but I'm ok with them reducing the necessity of the coolrun/containment skills.

If they wanted to reduce the necessity of those, wouldn't it be fair to, I dunno, bump up the default heatsink stats so that your overall heat efficiency was roughly the same?

Kind of like how they started doling out lots of agility quirks after nerfing the agility skill tree bonuses.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Yes, because we want this game to be bland and only about raw DPS.
High alphas are just apart of this game, we need to accept it and figure out how to both keep the absurd ones in check (Space Whale, short duration Laser Knight) while allowing things like Dakka a place in the meta.

This is impression i get when hearing 30 heat cap...

******** and got nothing to do with battletech but this is apparently what ppl want.

Edited by davoodoo, 12 September 2016 - 11:22 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

If they wanted to reduce the necessity of those, wouldn't it be fair to, I dunno, bump up the default heatsink stats so that your overall heat efficiency was roughly the same?

Kind of like how they started doling out lots of agility quirks after nerfing the agility skill tree bonuses.

Yes, they need to fix the math so that dissipation rates are around previous iteration, maybe make DHS dissipation 0.18 so that IS energy boats running 15 DHS get equivalent dissipation.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2016 - 11:27 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

Yes, they need to fix the math so that dissipation rates are at least equivalent to prior iterations.

Yes.

But they're not going to listen to people randomly proclaiming that. Go test it, generate data they can see, then say it.

I'm certain we're going to need higher-than-live dissipation. At no point do I say "This PTS is exactly what we should have."

But this is what we have now. PGI wants data on it, not random people's off-the-cuff thoughts (whether they be well thought out or not).

[Reno Blade]

just leaving this here:
Pts1 had normalized values to 1.5 cap and 1.5 dissipation for clan and IS.
Pts4 now has 1.2 /1.2 for shs and 1/1.7 for dhs while the engine heatsinks no longer provide 1.0 for shs or 2.0 for dhs but the same as externals.

not much, but dissipation was increased.

[FupDup]

Reno Blade, on 12 September 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

just leaving this here:
Pts1 had normalized values to 1.5 cap and 1.5 dissipation for clan and IS.
Pts4 now has 1.2 /1.2 for shs and 1/1.7 for dhs while the engine heatsinks no longer provide 1.0 for shs or 2.0 for dhs but the same as externals.

not much, but dissipation was increased.

Let's examine this statement.

Engine DHS used to be 0.2, PTS4 puts them to 0.17 (Nerf).

Cool Run used to be 7.5% (15% when Elited), PTS4 is now 2.5% (5% Elited) (Nerf).

External DHS are now 0.17 instead of 0.15 (Buff).


So, that tallies up to two dissipation nerfs and one dissipation buff. Mechs that can afford a lot of DHS can probably absorb the nerfs, but mechs without the tonnage will have slower cooling rates.

Edited by FupDup, 12 September 2016 - 11:34 AM.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

Let's examine this statement.

Engine DHS used to be 0.2, PTS4 puts them to 0.17 (Nerf).

Cool Run used to be 7.5% (15% when Elited), PTS4 is now 2.5% (5% Elited) (Nerf).

External DHS are now 0.17 instead of 0.15 (Buff).


So, that tallies up to two dissipation nerfs and one dissipation buff. Mechs that can afford a lot of DHS can probably absorb the nerfs, but mechs without the tonnage will have slower cooling rates.

And all in all, it'll end up being very roughly similar to what we have now, and in most cases (excepting DHS packed monstrosities, I'll grant) it'll probably be largely unnoticeable. The cap difference will matter a heck of a lot more.



1.7 engine DHS is the real significant change, as the 2.0 engine DHS+Cool Running was what made us have effectively 2.0 DHS before. Honestly, I prefer this: Having the engine DHS be so much better than external DHS caused a lot of problems.

It's much better for in-engine DHS and out-of-engine DHS to have the same cooling rates, as this removes problems with sub-250 rated engines.

With that said, yes, we're gonna need more dissipation to make low-cap work correctly.

[davoodoo]

20 dhs.
10x0.2+10x0.15 =3.5
20x0.17=3.4

Ive even skipped skills.

When we apply maxed mech however.

30 dhs
5.0+15%=5.75
5.1+5%= 5.36

You wont fit more dhs in your mech.

Also lets compare it to live with 1.4 externals, 30 dhs.
4.8+15%=5.52

Edited by davoodoo, 12 September 2016 - 11:46 AM.

[FupDup]

davoodoo, on 12 September 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

20 dhs.
10x0.2+10x0.15 =3.5
20x0.17=3.4

Ive even skipped skills.

Let's add them back in.

PTS3: 3.5 * 1.15 = 4.025

PTS4: 3.4 * 1.05 = 3.57


Also, keep in mind that not all mechs are going to have 20 DHS. Many mechs have fewer. Mechs with fewer sinks are affected by the changes more than the heatsink-boats because they don't get as much benefit from the external DHS counterbuff.

I think I'm going to prepare an Excel spreadsheet sometime later today to figure out when the PTS4 mech is equal in dissipation to the equivalent PTS3 mech.

Edited by FupDup, 12 September 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[davoodoo]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

Also, keep in mind that not all mechs are going to have 20 DHS. Many mechs have fewer. Mechs with fewer sinks are affected by the changes more than the heatsink-boats because they don't get as much benefit from the external DHS counterbuff.

Ofc, ive used 20 dhs as this is where they start to even out without skills.

With skills even old 1.4 dhs are better.

Edited by davoodoo, 12 September 2016 - 11:47 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

Let's add them back in.

PTS3: 3.5 * 1.15 = 4.025

PTS4: 3.4 * 1.05 = 3.57

It's kinda crazy what adding 0.01 to the dissipation on DHS can do.

Comparing IS DHS from live (external: 0.14, internal: 0.2) to the PTS if they buffed them to 1.8 global:
15 Doubles
Live: 0.2 * 10 + 0.14 * 5 = 2.7
PTSx: 0.18 * 15 = 2.7

I think 15 DHS is reasonable for energy boat IS mechs since most typically run 14-16.

Comparing Clan DHS from live (external: 0.15, internal: 0.2) to the PTS if they buffed them to 1.8 global:
17 Doubles
Live: 0.2 * 10 + 0.15 * 5 = 3.05
PTSx: 0.18 * 17 = 3.06

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2016 - 11:49 AM.

[davoodoo]

And this is just to make them even before skills.

1.8 at 15 dhs
1.7 at 20 dhs

You know what i would prefer over ed and these heat changes??

global -20%/30% dmg...

Edited by davoodoo, 12 September 2016 - 11:58 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 12 September 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

And this is just to make them even before skills.

Correct, with the skill change it may make sense just to bump up DHS to -0.2 heat per second and SHS to something like -0.15

[ScarecrowES]

Thing is... people are asking for cap and diss nerfs, and then ignore the fact that this is what TT already offers over MWO.

This is why I'm miffed that people can't bother to take the time to actually understand how the TT system actually works.

MWO's caps are already effectively much higher than TT. At minimum DHS, you get the equivalent of 5 free heat double sinks. It's a 50% increase in base heat cap over TT. You have to mount a total of 42 double heat sinks before MWO's heat cap drops down to where TT is.

And dissipation? TT has a lower effective dissipation rate than MWO because the 30pts of the TT penalty bar that MWO adds on top of base heat cap penalty free dissipates at a lower rate (down to zero) if you're still firing your weapons.

And despite what Kap posted, if you used MWO cooldowns in the TT system, you'd get the same basic results as the live servers now... same alphas, same heat cap, same diss rate... but you'd spend a lot more time trying to cool off... and that's WITHOUT talking the penalties you'd be getting.

Those penalties, by the way, are more reason to stop firing than the fear of shutting down.

The only purpose cooldowns have in MWO is in balancing the "value" of different ways of doing damage against each other. Cooldowns have absolutely no effect on combat tempo. Only the heat system controls that. You have to spend the same amount of time cooling off for a given amount of heat accumulated no matter how fast you accumulate it.

So if you REALLY want to lower effective heat caps and dissipation rates while punishing continued damage output and put a limit on alphas... just put in the effing TT heat system. It does ALL of that already.