34 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

first off the Current Heat Cap, Starts at 30 now(ED PTS4),
this 30Cap increases 1-1.2 for ever HS/DHS you have Equipped,


this idea is how to add in TT Heat Penalties into ED PTS4,
first off ive noticed some people saying that TT heat scale cant work in MWO,
because in TT heat Displacement is Instant, well its not instant in TT,
-
in TT a turn is i believe 10seconds,
so your heat sinks displace heat over those 10seconds,
the heat you have left over is what Triggers Heat Penalties,
so Heat Displacement isnt Instant and Penalties come after the 30Cap,

=Heat Penaltie System Idea=
for my idea i suggest we keep the Starting Heat Cap at 30,
this would make the cap closer to 30(40 as all mechs need 10HS by Default),
with this the cap is 10ish points lower than Live,
-
in this instance our added 10Cap(25%) will be the Penalty Buffer,
(this 25% can change but ill get to that in a bit)


the 30Point Heat Cap will count as a base where no Penalties can occur,
beyond this, Cap Penalties how much the last 25% of the HeatBar is Filled,

in this Picture a Mech with 40Cap, 10 over 30, or 25% of the Bar has Penalties,


now added HS will increase the Heat Cap but not the Cap before Penalties,
this is to help out smaller mechs by giving larger ones more a larger Penalty pool,

in this Picture a Mech with 60Cap, 30 over 30, or 50% of the Bar has Penalties,


that we have all that out of the way lets look at Penalties,
in this System i see only 3 Types that would work,
1) Speed,
2) Cycle,
3) HUD,


and with this there are 3 Penalty Lines,
=First Penalty Line=
-10%Speed,
-
=Second Penalty Line=
-20%Speed,
+10%Weapon Cycle,
-
=Second Penalty Line=
-30%Speed,
+20%Weapon Cycle,
HUD disappears(Everything no HUD at all, No Info)


=Heat Sinks=
With this Buff All HeatSinks,
SHS= +1.2Displament, +2HeatCap(1Crit),
IS-DHS= +2.5Displament, +1HeatCap(3Crits),
C-DHS= +2.0Displament, +1HeatCap(2Crits),



i feel with this penalties we can introduce a TT like Penalty System,
one that doesnt favor Larger Mechs, and that does have RNG Ammo Explosions,

find a problem in this system, post your Thoughts,
ill work to fix any you find, and try to refine this System,


-Note-
All Stats listed here are just to show how the idea would work,
im not advocating a full -30% speed all the time, so no worries,


Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Spelling,
Edit2- Some reworking,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 24 September 2016 - 07:02 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2016 - 04:56 PM, said:

first off the Current Heat Cap, Starts at 30 now(ED PTS4),
this 30Cap increases 1-1.2 for ever HS/DHS you have Equipped,


this idea is how to add in TT Heat Penalties into ED PTS4,
first off ive noticed some people saying that TT heat scale cant work in MWO,
because in TT heat Displacement is Instant, well its not instant in TT,
-
in TT a turn is i believe 10seconds,
so your heat sinks displace heat over those 10seconds,
the heat you have left over is what Triggers Heat Penalties,
so Heat Displacement isnt Instant and Penalties come after the 30Cap,



=Heat Penaltie System Idea=
for my idea i suggest we keep increase the heat cap by 10,
this would make the cap closer to 40(50 as all mechs need 10HS by Default),
with this the cap is 10ish points lower than Live,
-
in this instance our added 10Cap(25%) will be the Penalty Buffer,
(this 25% can change but ill get to that in a bit)


the 30Point Heat Cap will count as a base where no Penalties can occur,
beyond this, Cap Penalties how much the last 25% of the HeatBar is Filled,

in this Picture a Mech with 40Cap, 10 over 30, or 25% of the Bar has Penalties,


now added HS will increase the Heat Cap but not the Cap before Penalties,
this is to help out smaller mechs by giving larger ones more a larger Penalty pool,

in this Picture a Mech with 60Cap, 30 over 30, or 50% of the Bar has Penalties,


that we have all that out of the way lets look at Penalties,
in this System i see only 3 Types that would work,
1) Speed,
2) Cycle,
3) HUD,


and with this there are 3 Penalty Lines,
=First Penalty Line=
-10%Speed,
-
=Second Penalty Line=
-20%Speed,
+10%Weapon Cycle,
-
=Second Penalty Line=
-30%Speed,
+20%Weapon Cycle,
HUD disappears(Everything no HUD at all, No Info)



i feel with this penalties we can introduce a TT like Penalty System,
one that doesnt favor Larger Mechs, and that does have RNG Ammo Explosions,

find a problem in this system, post your Thoughts,
ill work to fix any you find, and try to refine this System,


-Note-
All Stats listed here are just to show how the idea would work,
im not advocating a full -30% speed all the time, so no worries,


Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit-

A bit late to the party, yeah?

http://mwomercs.com/...tt-heat-system/

I did this write up as of PTS 1. More simple overall than your system... more direct stats in line with TT, but otherwise same basic theory.

Of course, now I'm literally spending my time trying to explain how 100 in 10 seconds is the same thing as 10/sec over 10 seconds, since apparently folks are struggling.

[Arkroma]

In PTS4 energy boat, or anything can't carry goose waffle(s) is basically screwed. And how is this better than that?

[Andi Nagasia]

ScarecrowES, on 13 September 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

A bit late to the party, yeah?

http://mwomercs.com/...tt-heat-system/

I did this write up as of PTS 1. More simple overall than your system... more direct stats in line with TT, but otherwise same basic theory.

Of course, now I'm literally spending my time trying to explain how 100 in 10 seconds is the same thing as 10/sec over 10 seconds, since apparently folks are struggling.

yes but, your system seems that once you hit your heat Cap(100%),
instead of shutting down your hit goes into a Penalty bar which dissipates at a different Rate,
once you get 30point in your Penalty bar then you shut down,

mine System uses the current heat System,
and just says once you exceed 30points on your Heat Scale then you get Penalties,
so you start out at a 30+10Cap, but adding SHS/DHS will increase your Cap,
however any heat over your 30points on your scale triggers a penalty,

Arkroma, on 13 September 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:

In PTS4 energy boat, or anything can't carry goose waffle(s) is basically screwed. And how is this better than that?

well with my idea im suggesting this come with a +10To heat cap, or a 33% larger Heat Pool,
so a Buff to Energy Mechs, allowing more wiggle room for them,

[ScarecrowES]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

yes but, your system seems that once you hit your heat Cap(100%),
instead of shutting down your hit goes into a Penalty bar which dissipates at a different Rate,
once you get 30point in your Penalty bar then you shut down,

mine System uses the current heat System,
and just says once you exceed 30points on your Heat Scale then you get Penalties,
so you start out at a 30+10Cap, but adding SHS/DHS will increase your Cap,
however any heat over your 30points on your scale triggers a penalty,



well with my idea im suggesting this come with a +10To heat cap, or a 33% larger Heat Pool,
so a Buff to Energy Mechs, allowing more wiggle room for them,

The MWO heat scale is your heat cap, as determined by your number and type of sinks, plus the 30pts of the penalty scale. Instead of jamming both of those together like MWO does, I separated them back up as TT does.

So if you've got a mech that mounts 15 DHS, it has a 30pt heat scale in both MWO and TT. And from this, you get your rate of dissipation of 3.0pts/second (1/10th of the heat cap per second). This is the same for both systems. In TT, anything you use over your heat scale goes into the penalty bar. In MWO, they just added the penalty bar on top of your heat scale with no penalties.

What you did, basically, was put the scale upside down. Started the penalties at the wrong end. You should be incurring penalties in the last 30pts of your scale, not after 30pts.

It's a fundemental misunderstanding of the TT heat system. You simply have the mechanics backwards, which will yield very unbalanced results.

Overall, you have the basic concept right. I'm just staying extremely faithful to the TT mechanics here, you've kinda created your own.

Not knocking that. I just can't quite predict exactly how the changes will effect the full spectrum of builds. I know it will not treat all builds equally, but not sure exactly what the result is off the top of my head. WIll have to look into it more.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 13 September 2016 - 07:17 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

@ScarecrowES,
i know the MWO heat Scale is determined by number of heat sinks,
thats how my idea works, its based off TT Heat Penalties but its not 1:1,

no my scale isnt up side down, its just looked at another way,
my idea has it where you dont get penalties till after your Heat over comes 30points,
then then after it does you get 3 waves of penalties before shutdown(Speed/Cycle/Hud),
if you invest more heat sinks the 30 doesnt change, what changes is the spacing between your Penalties,
-
a 50point system(40 +10(most lights) will have the Heat Penalties covering the top 40% of the HeatBar,
a 70point system(40 +30(Heavies/Assaults) will have the Heat Penalties covering the top 60% of the HeatBar,

[ScarecrowES]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

@ScarecrowES,
i know the MWO heat Scale is determined by number of heat sinks,
thats how my idea works, its based off TT Heat Penalties but its not 1:1,

no my scale isnt up side down, its just looked at another way,
my idea has it where you dont get penalties till after your Heat over comes 30points,
then then after it does you get 3 waves of penalties before shutdown(Speed/Cycle/Hud),
if you invest more heat sinks the 30 doesnt change, what changes is the spacing between your Penalties,
-
a 50point system(40 +10(most lights) will have the Heat Penalties covering the top 40% of the HeatBar,
a 70point system(40 +30(Heavies/Assaults) will have the Heat Penalties covering the top 60% of the HeatBar,

Like I said... it's not really the TT system. It's extremely different, and in some ways it's the exact opposite of TT. Just pointing that out - not necessarily as a negative critique. You're using the penalty zone as your heat cap, and your heat cap as the penalty zone. This will have a lot of effect on which mechs get punished more than others. Some mechs that would normally suffer will benefit, and vice versa.

For instance, a mech with 25 DHS would have a 50 cap normally (more or less, since MWOs convoluted math gets involved). The idea in TT is that you're allowed to use whatever heat cap you pay for (through sinks) before you start getting penalized. A mech with 25 DHS will probably NEED all of that cap, otherwise it wouldn't have mounted all those sinks.

A Kodiak-3 with 4xcUAC/10 only produces 24 heat per double-tap... 80 damage. You're going to have a much lower cap with the Kodiak than the energy build above because you won't be mounting as many sinks. But you're giving both mechs the same base 30 cap to work with? That's probably fine for the Kodiak, since you'll probably have 15 DHS in the basic build anyway. But you're seriously gimping the energy build and ensuring it's spending MOST of its time being penalized just for firing a few of its weapons.

I also am not sure what the purpose of adding an extra 10 heat cap to all mechs. Buffing low-cap mechs? The current MWO system does this already, and it's what causes a lot of problems in the system. May not be a great idea, but applied universally who knows. Needs testing.

I'm not opposed to your system in principle. It's basically the current MWO system, which is just a bastardized TT system, with penalties later in the bar. It's a means to get penalties involved in the process, which is an important part of making the heat system work right. It's just your numbers and where you put them that I take objection to... not the mechanics.



I'm not opposed to your system in principle. It's basically the current MWO system, which is just a bastardized TT system, with penalties later in the bar.

[Andi Nagasia]

@ScarecrowES,
a Direct TT HeatScale would also hurt energy Mechs, wail Buffing Ballistic Mechs,
in TT(10Sec Round) you Fire your heat displaces any left over(past a limit) activates the Penalty system,
my System works with ED to lessen Ballistic Boats, and Ups the heat Cap so energy mechs are still possible,

my system isnt hard to under stand and easy to bring into MWO,
and could give us an easily understandable system to make MWO more Fun,

you start with a a heat cap of 40, for every DHS or SHS you add this heat cap goes up,
(SHS are +1.0Displacement/sec +1.5HeatCap)(DHS are full +2.0Displacement/sec +1.0HeatCap)
what ever your Heat Cap is, you start getting Penalties starting at 30Heat Scale,

any 10HS light mech(50Heat Cap)(top 40% of the Heat Scale is filled with Heat Penalties)
any 20HS Medium/Heavy mech(60Heat Cap)(top 50% of the Heat Scale is filled with Heat Penalties)
any 30HS Assault mech(70Heat Cap)(top 60% of the Heat Scale is filled with Heat Penalties)

[ScarecrowES]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

@ScarecrowES,
a Direct TT HeatScale would also hurt energy Mechs, wail Buffing Ballistic Mechs,
in TT(10Sec Round) you Fire your heat displaces any left over(past a limit) activates the Penalty system.

Realizing that your pure caps and dissipation rates are the same fundamentally the same in both TT and MWO, your assertion about what a TT system buffs actually proves false. If anything, a direct translation removes PGIs convoluted math and takes away the heat cap and dissipation buffs for low-cap mechs, thus is actually less directly favorable to ballistics. Energy, however, is left where it currently is for the most part, so ballistics and energy have closer parity than in the current system.

Yours, however, will be a massive buff to ballistics... not good.

And designing it to work with ED... also not good. At this point we should acknowledge that most everybody that ever supported ED has given up on it.

[Andi Nagasia]

ScarecrowES, on 14 September 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

And designing it to work with ED... also not good. At this point we should acknowledge that most everybody that ever supported ED has given up on it.

i still support it, k kinda, abit, ya 30heat cap kinda killed it,

[ScarecrowES]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 September 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

i still support it, k kinda, abit, ya 30heat cap kinda killed it,

The math for your system shouldn't be much more difficult than the base system. Assume that ED doesn't factor in and run some builds. Best to start out with builds at the extremes... direct ballistic and direct energy builds.

This should give you a baseline of performance of your system. Be sure to compare to Live.

Something to work from.

[Andi Nagasia]

still think having it this way with ED may yield better results,

[Monkey Lover]

I am in favor of anything that makes ed more realistic. If they put the work into this type of system they could branch it out into a mech damage system too. 50% dmg to head hud goes out, 50% dmg to a leg speed decreases 20% and so on.

[kapusta11]

Heat penalties don't come after 30 cap in TT, they come after whatever amount of DHS you have x2, and heat dissipation was high enought so that by the time you could fire your weapons again all the heat was already dissipated, so long as you have proper amount of heat sinks.

1:1 implementation of TT heat system in MWO would look like this.

Heat cap = the amount of DHS you have x2
One DHS dissipate 0.4 - 0.5 heat per second. That's a lot.
Heat scale penalties trigger the moment you exceed your heat cap by more than 5 points (first heat scale panalty) or higher.

But that would not be fun IMO, All energy weapons would turn into dps weapons. And MWO already has one massive heat penalty everyone seems to ignore, it's horrible sustained dps.

[Lunatic_Asylum]

Ghost heat should be in the game. Whatever system is used, it should include it as a basis for gameplay.

[Taxxian]

No HUD is a bad penalty...

Everyone who cares would just turn on ARM LOCK buy a sheet of transparent foil make a cross in the middle and stick it to the monitor...

A game that can be improved by transparent foil on the screen is bad game design... so NO NO NO

PS: I still voted yes

Edited by Taxxian, 23 September 2016 - 05:13 AM.

[Greyhart]

Taxxian, on 23 September 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

No HUD is a bad penalty...

Everyone who cares would just turn on ARM LOCK buy a sheet of transparent foil make a cross in the middle and stick it to the monitor...

A game that can be improved by transparent foil on the screen is bad game design... so NO NO NO

PS: I still voted yes

Anyone willing to go to these length to win at a computer game needs to have a long hard look at their life.

[ScarecrowES]

Greyhart, on 23 September 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

Anyone willing to go to these length to win at a computer game needs to have a long hard look at their life.

Some people clearly do, yes.

[MechaBattler]

I recommend reticle shake a la MASC and JJs. It's a mechanic that is already in the game. Though it would have to be less extreme than those versions. The other simple one is lose your mini-map.

[Y E O N N E]

Taxxian, on 23 September 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

No HUD is a bad penalty...

Everyone who cares would just turn on ARM LOCK buy a sheet of transparent foil make a cross in the middle and stick it to the monitor...

A game that can be improved by transparent foil on the screen is bad game design... so NO NO NO

PS: I still voted yes

I aim just as well with no crosshair. Sometimes better.

There is a section in Halo: Combat Evolved, on the level Assault on the Control Room, where you come out onto a land bridge while the chapter title is out and your HUD is gone. I have never once, in 15 years of playing, missed that sniper shot. Your brain actually automatically centers objects within a symmetrical frame of reference. It's why we use diopter sights on rifles instead of notch sights these days.