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Is / Clan, Tonnage / Crit, Balance Concept!(Please Vote)


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Poll: Is / Clan, Tonnage / Crit, Balance Concept! (166 member(s) have cast votes)

do think IS should get +1Ton Ammo with every Ammo Based Weapon?

  1. Yes! Tonnage/Crit Equality! (143 votes [86.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 86.14%

  2. No! things are ok as they are, (23 votes [13.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.86%

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#1 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 12:12 PM

ok with the all the IS to Clan Balance Talks about,
and it seems like Every Discussion leads into an Epeen Contest,

Let me Bring Something up that Many feel is or isnt important,
the Tonnage and Crit differences between IS and Clan Weapons,
Weapon Balance Aside, it seems like Tonnage/Crit are their own Discussion,


=Thoughts on Balance=
This Topic is to Discuss the Balance between Faction, Tonnage and Crits,
In doing, This Topic Assumes that all Weapons are balanced Stats wise,
(they may not be but thats for another Topic not this one)
-
But why Discuss IS to Clan, Tonnage and Crits?
Because many Good Topics on Clan Balancing have been shot down on it,
Valid ideas Cast aside, because Clan Weapons are Abit smaller and Weigh less,
This Topic Seeks to Discuss this and Find a Solution to Tonnage & Crit Balance,


=Current Weapons=
=Energy=
Small Lasers/Pulse take up same Tonnage and Crits,
Medium Lasers/Pulse take up same Tonnage and Crits,
-
IS Large Lasers take up 1 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan ERLL,
IS Large Pulse take up 1 more Ton vs Clan LPL,

=Ballistic=
IS AC2 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton But 1 less Crit vs Clan UAC2 +Ammo,
IS AC5 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan UAC5 +Ammo,
IS AC10 +Ammo take up 2 more Tons and 2 more Crit vs Clan AC10 +Ammo,
IS AC20 +Ammo take up 2 more Tons and 2 more Crit vs Clan UAC20 +Ammo,
-
IS UAC2 +Ammo take up 2 more Ton But 1 more Crit vs Clan UAC2 +Ammo,
IS UAC5 +Ammo take up 2 more Ton and 2 more Crit vs Clan UAC5 +Ammo,
IS UAC10 +Ammo take up 3 more Tons and 3 more Crit vs Clan AC10 +Ammo,
IS UAC20 +Ammo take up 3 more Tons and 2 more Crit vs Clan UAC20 +Ammo,
-
IS LBX2 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton But 1 more Crit vs Clan UAC2 +Ammo,
IS LBX5 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan UAC5 +Ammo,
IS LBX10 +Ammo take up 1 more Tons and 1 more Crit vs Clan AC10 +Ammo,
IS LBX20 +Ammo take up 2 more Tons and 2 more Crit vs Clan UAC20 +Ammo,
-
IS Gauss +Ammo take up 3 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan Gauss +Ammo,

=Missile=
IS LRM5 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan LRM5 +Ammo,
IS LRM10 +Ammo take up 2.5 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan LRM10 +Ammo,
IS LRM15 +Ammo take up 3.5 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan LRM15 +Ammo,
IS LRM20 +Ammo take up 5 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan LRM20 +Ammo,
-
IS SRM2 +Ammo take up 0.5 more Ton vs Clan SRM2 +Ammo,
IS SRM4 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton vs Clan SRM4 +Ammo,
IS SRM6 +Ammo take up 1.5 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan SRM6 +Ammo,
-
IS SSRM2 +Ammo take up 0.5 more Ton vs Clan SSRM2 +Ammo,
IS SSRM4 +Ammo take up 1.0 more Ton vs Clan SSRM4 +Ammo,
IS SSRM6 +Ammo take up 1.5 more Ton vs Clan SSRM6 +Ammo,


=0=My Solution=0=
Lasers are mostly Fine, but for Missiles and Ballistics,
give all IS Ammo Based Weapons 1Free Ton of Ammo
this Balances out the Problem almost Completely,

=NEW Weapons=
=Energy=(No Change)=
Small Lasers/Pulse take up same Tonnage and Crits as Clan,
Medium Lasers/Pulse take up same Tonnage and Crits as Clan,
-
IS Large Lasers take up 1 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan ERLL,
IS Large Pulse take up 1 more Ton vs Clan LPL,

=Ballistic=(IS +1FreeAmmo(1FreeTon&1FreeCrit)=
IS AC2 +Ammo take up same Tonnage But 2 Less Crits vs Clan UAC2 +Ammo,
IS AC5 +Ammo take up same Tonnage and Crits as Clan UAC5 +Ammo,
IS AC10 +Ammo take up 1 more Tons and 1 more Crit vs Clan AC10 +Ammo,
IS AC20 +Ammo take up 1 more Tons and 1 more Crit vs Clan UAC20 +Ammo,
-
IS UAC2 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton & same Crits vs Clan UAC2 +Ammo,
IS UAC5 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan UAC5 +Ammo,
IS UAC10 +Ammo take up 2 more Tons and 2 more Crit vs Clan AC10 +Ammo,
IS UAC20 +Ammo take up 2 more Tons and 1 more Crit vs Clan UAC20 +Ammo,
-
IS LBX2 +Ammo take up same Tonnage and Crits as Clan UAC2 +Ammo,
IS LBX5 +Ammo take up same Tonnage and Crits as Clan UAC5 +Ammo,
IS LBX10 +Ammo take up same Tonnage and Crits as vs Clan AC10 +Ammo,
IS LBX20 +Ammo take up 1 more Tons and 1 more Crit vs Clan UAC20 +Ammo,
-
IS Gauss +Ammo take up 2 more Ton vs Clan Gauss +Ammo,

=Missile=(IS +1FreeAmmo(1FreeTon&1FreeCrit)=
IS LRM5 +Ammo take up same Tonnage and Crits as Clan5 +Ammo,
IS LRM10 +Ammo take up 1.5 more Ton vs Clan LRM10 +Ammo,
IS LRM15 +Ammo take up 2.5 more Ton vs Clan LRM15 +Ammo,
IS LRM20 +Ammo take up 4 more Ton vs Clan LRM20 +Ammo,
-
IS SRM2 +Ammo take up 0.5 less Ton and 1 less Crit vs Clan SRM2 +Ammo,
IS SRM4 +Ammo take up 1 less Crit vs Clan SRM4 +Ammo,
IS SRM6 +Ammo take up 0.5 more Ton vs Clan SRM6 +Ammo,
-
IS SSRM2 +Ammo take up 0.5 less Ton and 1 less Crit vs Clan SSRM2 +Ammo,
IS SSRM4 +Ammo take up same Tons and 1 less Crit vs Clan SSRM4 +Ammo,
IS SSRM6 +Ammo take up 0.5 more Ton and 1 less Crit vs Clan SSRM6 +Ammo,

As you can See the Weapons Now Appear more Balanced,
some Larger Ballistics and Missiles are Still down but are Much Closer,
This Also Keeps with the Idea that IS & Clan are to be Asymmetrically Balanced,
Equal But Play abit different for Flavor and Fluff of the Faction,
-
this Change also give some Smaller IS weapons Advantage over Clan,
Such as AC2s and SRM2-4, this will also Encourage Lights to take these Weapons,
Which Could really help some IS Tonnage Starved Lights, (LCT, COM, ect),


=8=Please NOTE=8=
Im not Proposing the Changing of Tonnage or Crits for Any Weapon,
Im Proposing Every IS Ammo Weapon Gain a(1) Free Ton of Ammo Internally,
this is to bring IS Weapon Tonnage and Crits closer to Clan Weapons,
(think of a Pistol with 1Shot in the Chamber, same concept)


=0=Explanations=0=
=Game Reason=
For Balance Purposes of IS Ammo Based Weapons will have 1 Ton Ammo Built into the Weapon,
This is here to Negate the Advantage of Clan Weapons Weighing less and taking up less Crits,
-
=Lore Reason=
due to the Feed Type Systems of the IS, all IS Ammo Weapons have to be Pre-loaded with Ammo,
Clans due to their Technology have be able to Negate this with Advanced Feed Systems leading to Lighter Weapons,


+Special Note+
Tonnage/Crit of IS PPC/LL/LPL could also be balanced the same way,
by giving every IS PPC/LL/LPL by having 1HS built into the Energy Weapon,
(as in these Energy Weapons would have their own Heat Displacement)
-
Tonnage/Crit of IS LMG/MG/HMGs could also be balanced the same way as well,
giving IS them +0.5Ton of Ammo(allowing them to have the same-ish Tonnage as Clans)

=New Skill Tree Info=
as the New Skill Tree is coming out May and most quirks are disappearing,
i think this would be a perfect time to test this idea for Tonnage & Crit Balance,
with now Quirks on new Mechs, Tech will have to be balanced,
and i feel this could greatly help with the Faction Balance,

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Special Note Added,
Edit2- Some Stat Fixes,
Edit3- Some Wording Reworks,
Edit4- Skill Tree Notes
Edit5- Added UAC/LBX

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 05 February 2018 - 02:36 PM.


#2 Alex Morgaine

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 01:20 PM

The problem isn't space and weight, it's that until the late 50- early 60s the inner sphere has to play tech catch up, and fought with numbers not equipment. Good or bad now, free ammo will hurt later weapon balance.

Also. New players will whine about clan Mechs not having the free ammo too. So they'll probably end up with a ton free... Might as well just give every ammo based weapon a free ton of ammo actually. See what happens on pts with that. Stock builds would have just enough longevity actually.

#3 Hotthedd

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 02:01 PM

Why ignore recycle rate, burn time, burst vs. FLD, and cooldown as balancing factors that can (and should) be used for balance without breaking the lore?

#4 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 05:20 PM

View PostAlex Morgaine, on 14 September 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

The problem isn't space and weight, it's that until the late 50- early 60s the inner sphere has to play tech catch up, and fought with numbers not equipment. Good or bad now, free ammo will hurt later weapon balance.

the thing is even with new weapons, Clan Endo and Ferro still take up less Crits,
id rather see this used to balance IS to Clan Tonnage & Crit Disparity, then Doubling down on IS Quirks,

View PostHotthedd, on 14 September 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Why ignore recycle rate, burn time, burst vs. FLD, and cooldown as balancing factors that can (and should) be used for balance without breaking the lore?

this doesnt really break lore, as and can be easily used to fix this Disparity,
this is a simple way to keep IS and Clan different, but allow them to function more similarly,

#5 Requiemking

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 05:40 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 14 September 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

the thing is even with new weapons, Clan Endo and Ferro still take up less Crits,
id rather see this used to balance IS to Clan Tonnage & Crit Disparity, then Doubling down on IS Quirks,

this doesnt really break lore, as and can be easily used to fix this Disparity,
this is a simple way to keep IS and Clan different, but allow them to function more similarly,

Except, all your doing is busting game balance even more. As I stated in the other thread, IS already has superior performing weapons. They don't need free ammo.

#6 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 06:32 PM

View PostRequiemking, on 14 September 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

Except, all your doing is busting game balance even more. As I stated in the other thread, IS already has superior performing weapons. They don't need free ammo.

and as ive said i feel this is needed to help IS to Clan Tonnage & Crit Disparity,
thats my opinion, all you keep repeating is it will throw off balance right now,
i can agree with that but thats not why im Suggesting this,

#7 Requiemking

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 06:42 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 14 September 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

and as ive said i feel this is needed to help IS to Clan Tonnage & Crit Disparity,
thats my opinion, all you keep repeating is it will throw off balance right now,
i can agree with that but thats not why im Suggesting this,

Except, it won't. It won't help in the short or long term. The only things that will help are the solutions that have been suggested time and time again, but PGI won't even consider, which is advancing the timeline. Doing that will open new weapon options, such as IS ERLs and IS LBX, thus allowing you to balance based on that, rather than giving IS weapons free ammo just to make up for a tonnage disparity which wasn't a problem in the first place.

#8 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 07:49 PM

View PostRequiemking, on 14 September 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

Except, it won't. It won't help in the short or long term. The only things that will help are the solutions that have been suggested time and time again, but PGI won't even consider, which is advancing the timeline. Doing that will open new weapon options, such as IS ERLs and IS LBX, thus allowing you to balance based on that, rather than giving IS weapons free ammo just to make up for a tonnage disparity which wasn't a problem in the first place.

ok let me ask you, as ERLasers arnt in focus here, how would you balance an IS-LBX20 to a C-LBX20?
(Clan LBX20= 9Crits @12Tons) vs (IS LBX20=11Crits @14Tons)(IS are an extra 2more Crits and 2more Tons)
how do you balance that? less spread(cant as it will just make it completely inferior to the STD IS-AC20)
also if Crit & Tonnage Disparity not a problem, why does it keep coming up in balance discussions?

also what about future Tech?
Heavy Gauss(IS) Heavy Lasers(Clan) it goes bot ways,

#9 CapperDeluxe

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 04:49 AM

No, I think all ammo weapons for IS and Clan should be double BT values since armor is double. Just makes sense.

#10 Hotthedd

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 05:46 AM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 15 September 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

No, I think all ammo weapons for IS and Clan should be double BT values since armor is double. Just makes sense.

But in BT you cannot reliably put all of that damage into one component. That ability negates the need for as much ammo.

#11 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 01:40 PM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 15 September 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

No, I think all ammo weapons for IS and Clan should be double BT values since armor is double. Just makes sense.

i think most ammo has been increased, by at least half, x2 for AC10s,

View PostHotthedd, on 15 September 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

But in BT you cannot reliably put all of that damage into one component. That ability negates the need for as much ammo.

true but ammo amount really doesnt benefit PPFLD too much,
as i said i know all ACs would have to be re-balanced if this was added,
but at least all weapons would be more balanced,

also this helps out Light and Medium IS Mechs, which can how take more ammo,
this means that you could gain an extra ton for a larger engine in a Light,
this allows a RVN-4X to go 104kph wail also taking a Gauss(20Ammo),
or perhaps 118kph, wail taking an AC10(30Ammo) and 2MLs,

#12 Hotthedd

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 03:35 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 15 September 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

true but ammo amount really doesnt benefit PPFLD too much,

WUT?!?

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 15 September 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

as i said i know all ACs would have to be re-balanced if this was added,
but at least all weapons would be more balanced,

also this helps out Light and Medium IS Mechs, which can how take more ammo,
this means that you could gain an extra ton for a larger engine in a Light,
this allows a RVN-4X to go 104kph wail also taking a Gauss(20Ammo),
or perhaps 118kph, wail taking an AC10(30Ammo) and 2MLs,

Those are reasons I would be inclined to be against the idea, not for it.

#13 Requiemking

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 04:45 PM

View PostHotthedd, on 15 September 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:

WUT?!?

Those are reasons I would be inclined to be against the idea, not for it.

As much as I hate agreeing with Hotthedd on anything, I have to agree with him here. You'd be better off giving Clan small ACs (2 and 5) free ammo and increasing their size and tonnage by one to account for the free ammo.

#14 Hotthedd

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 05:21 PM

View PostRequiemking, on 15 September 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

As much as I hate agreeing with Hotthedd on anything,


Posted Image

#15 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 06:22 PM

its a boon to light and Medium mechs that normally wouldnt take Ballistics and Missiles,
how can helping IS Lights be a reason this is a bad idea? or should mechs like the LCT-M/3S not Exist?
or what about Every Non-Hero Commando, All Ravens, All Panthers? this helps them too,

#16 Requiemking

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 11:16 AM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 15 September 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

its a boon to light and Medium mechs that normally wouldnt take Ballistics and Missiles,
how can helping IS Lights be a reason this is a bad idea? or should mechs like the LCT-M/3S not Exist?
or what about Every Non-Hero Commando, All Ravens, All Panthers? this helps them too,

And? What about Clan Lights that use Ballistics, such as the Mist Lynx D or the Arctic Cheetah B? Why should they get screwed out of using lighter Ballistics when they have LESS usable tonnage that any IS Light?

Edited by Requiemking, 16 September 2016 - 11:16 AM.


#17 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 12:12 PM

View PostRequiemking, on 16 September 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

And? What about Clan Lights that use Ballistics, such as the Mist Lynx D or the Arctic Cheetah B? Why should they get screwed out of using lighter Ballistics when they have LESS usable tonnage that any IS Light?

thats because they are OmniMechs, they have locked Equipment to balance them,
however what makes OminMechs Powerful in BattleTech is the ability to be Fully Modular,
i can take MDD-A STs and put them on my DWF in BattleTech TT, we dont have that in MWO,

as such Full MechFactory BattleMechs have in MWO, they are better than OmniMechs im MWO,
thats a BattleMech vs OmniMech Problem, not a IS Tech Vs Clan Tech Problem,
BattleMech to OmniMech Balance is another Topic all together,

if you take away Quirks and Compare a JR7-Oxide vs a JR7-IIC-O which would be better?
with SRM4/6 Weighting a ton more and possibly 1 Crit more(SRM6), theres a Stat imbalance,
my idea would make SRM4 practically the same as Clan and SRM6 just half a ton more,

#18 Requiemking

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 12:46 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 16 September 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

thats because they are OmniMechs, they have locked Equipment to balance them,
however what makes OminMechs Powerful in BattleTech is the ability to be Fully Modular,
i can take MDD-A STs and put them on my DWF in BattleTech TT, we dont have that in MWO,

Except, in this game, being an Omnimech is bad thanks to hardlocked equipment. For example, the Mist Lynx is a 25 tonner, same as the Commando. Yet, despite being a battlemech, the Commando is more customisable than the Mist Lynx, because it doesn't suffer from having hardlocked equipment that limit's what it can mount. A Mist Lynx can have seven tons of podspace if it compromises on armor, which is bad for a Light mech. If you need more space for ammo or heatsinks, too bad. Meanwhile, the Commando, if it has tonnage concerns, can:
- add Endo/Ferro
- Downsize it's engine.
- or get rid of unnecessary equipment such as BAP.

#19 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 01:55 PM

View PostRequiemking, on 16 September 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Except, in this game, being an Omnimech is bad thanks to hardlocked equipment. For example, the Mist Lynx is a 25 tonner, same as the Commando. Yet, despite being a battlemech, the Commando is more customisable than the Mist Lynx, because it doesn't suffer from having hardlocked equipment that limit's what it can mount. A Mist Lynx can have seven tons of podspace if it compromises on armor, which is bad for a Light mech. If you need more space for ammo or heatsinks, too bad. Meanwhile, the Commando, if it has tonnage concerns, can:
- add Endo/Ferro
- Downsize it's engine.
- or get rid of unnecessary equipment such as BAP.

all very true, but as i said thats an BattleMech vs OmniMech Discussion, which is another Topic,
as with the current OmniSystem, an IS OmniMechs will have the same problem as Clan OmniMechs,

all this will do is make the playing field for when Quirks are reworked,
which is very likely in the future as with Energy Draw, & balance Changes it will bring,
which is why im asking everyone to vote, for or against doesnt matter, Please Vote ;)
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 16 September 2016 - 01:56 PM.


#20 Thor Sten

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 04:47 AM

I'll take a free ton of ammo for all of my MGs :)





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