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Pts 5- Energy Draw- Sept 16


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#1 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 03:31 PM

View PostInnerSphereNews, on 16 September 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:


Posted Image





Greetings MechWarriors,

The Energy Draw Public Test Server has been updated with a number of adjustments based on feedback, discussions, and additional testing.
As highlighted in the original Energy Draw PTS post we want to stress that the values and features you'll see in this PTS, including any updates to it, are all subject to feedback and change. The Energy Draw system will not be placed onto the Live servers until it is determined to represent an improvement over the existing Heat Scale mechanics already present on the Live servers.

~ Previous Energy PTS details and updates ~

Original PTS details post



PTS Update #1

PTS Update #2



PTS Update #3





Heat Penalty Changes




In our previous update we wanted to see if altering the Heat Threshold values would get us the desired results we were looking for, without needing to increase Energy Draw Heat Penalties any further. After much feedback toward the restrictiveness of the last update this test will try to determine if increased Dissipation rates, coupled with higher Heat Penalty values, will yield better results.
This is not a final value; we will be closely monitoring the impact of this change.
• Heat Penalty has been increased to 1.4 point of Heat for every point of Energy over which you have exceeded your Current 'Mech Energy Value.

This is an increase from the previous value of 1.0 Heat for every point of Energy.


Heat Sink Changes




The implementation of the Heat Sink changes with our last PTS update came with a reduction to the efficacy of the two Skill Tree nodes. The coupling of those changes was intended to provide us with a better baseline for determining the impact of the changes to Heat Sinks. However, we agree with the feedback from the last update that those values, taken together, were too restrictive. We also observed some interesting concerns regarding the effectiveness of Single Heat Sinks in comparison to Doubles.

In this update we have made baseline changes to both Heat Sink types to hopefully put us in a much better spot, and to account for proper advancement of boosts received from the Skill Tree. The Heat Capacity stat has been tuned to account for the reintroduction of the Skill Tree stats. Elite 'Mech Skills should pull you up to similar thresholds that were seen previously.


Single Heat Sinks
• Engine Heat Sink Dissipation Rate decreased to 0.11 (from 0.12)
• Heat Capacity decreased to 1.1 (from 1.2)


Double Heat Sinks (Inner Sphere and Clan)
• Engine Heat Sink Dissipation Rate increased to 0.19 (from 0.17)
• Heat Capacity decreased to 0.9 (from 1.0)


Skill Tree Changes





When unlocked, these Skill Tree value changes should put Double Heat Sinks at a level slightly above their "true double" Dissipation rates.

• Cool Run increased to 5% (from 2.5%).
• Heat Containment increased to 7.5% (from 2.5%).


'Mech Overheat Damage




With the changes to Heat Sink Dissipation, we see an opportunity here to adjust the method by which Overheat Damage is dealt. The method has been adjusted in a way that will see Overheat Damage penalties increase for excessive Overheating, in addition to some alterations for how Damage scales based on your Tonnage. While lighter 'Mechs will receive only a slight increase compared to what they experience currently, Assault 'Mechs will take an amount of Overheat Damage more proportional to their total health pool.


Weapon Changes




Clan Ultra AutoCannons
The majority of the UAC line is performing approximately where we would like them to be, but we recognize that the previous changes put the Clan U-AC/20 in a difficult spot, despite already being the highest average DPS boost across the UAC line. Given the drawbacks of the weapon, we are fine with reducing the Jam Duration to equal that of the Clan U-AC/10.


Clan U-AC/20
• Jam Duration reduced to 8s (from 10s)


Pulse Lasers

The Large Pulse Laser has proven to be fairly disruptive under the context of Energy Draw. We have attempted to maintain its previous weapon properties as much as we could under the previous directions, but it has become increasingly clear that something has to give; despite its increased Tonnage, having better Damage, better Beam Duration, and better DPS has made it the clear winner compared to other Large Lasers.

With this update we are going alter the Large Pulse Laser a bit and reinforce the previously stated design goals, with Pulse Lasers shifting to a greater focus on DPS. To that end we have decreased their Damage and Heat, while maintaining their superior Beam Duration, and are reducing their Cooldown Duration further to keep DPS comparable its previous weapon properties. We are also bumping the Energy Consumption of the Large Pulse Lasers back to a 1:1 ratio, as it still provides a very powerful stat line for what the weapon brings to the table.

With this update we have also taken a look at the Medium Pulse Lasers, and feel that they too can use a bit of a DPS boost.

We would like to stress that these changes are not final, as we are trying to find a spot where Large Pulse Laser excels at its intended 400-600m DPS role without invalidating similar weapon options.


Medium Pulse Laser
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.1 (from 3.3)


Large Pulse Laser
• Damage decreased to 8 (from 9)
• Energy Consumption decreased to 8 (from 8.1)
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.2 (from 3.5)


Clan Medium Pulse Laser
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.1 (from 3.3)


Clan Large Pulse Laser
• Damage decreased to 10 (from 11)
• Heat decreased to 9 (from 10)
• Energy Consumption increased to 10 (from 9.9)
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 3.2 (from 3.5)

Quirks





For the purposes of this PTS we have removed all Clan and Inner Sphere Quirks.

We want to very clear that is not a test for the permanent removal of Quirks, either in general or with the release of Energy Draw. Their removal in this PTS is intended to aid with deriving a better baseline regarding balance of Clan and IS tech levels under the content of Energy Draw, as it currently stands. We are particularly monitoring the effects of removing Heat Generation Quirks, so we can better tune the Quirks within the context of Energy Draw.


With that said, we also want to take an opportunity to test the baseline balance of the Clan vs. Inner Sphere dynamic in the absence of Quirks to provide us with better data in how we can potentially tune the Quirk system at a later date.

We are fully aware the Quirks are integral for the balance of many 'Mechs within the game, and we do not want to disrupt this. The removal of Quirks in this PTS session is purely to aid toward acquiring better baseline balance data.

(Link)
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 16 September 2016 - 03:41 PM.


#2 Deathlike

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 03:42 PM

I'm not even sure why I repeat myself when it comes to "pulse lasers" and DPS.

Reducing the cooldown for already hot weapons does not improve DPS.

Hot weapons like lasers are not sustainable, unlike dakka.

I feel like the echo chamber needs... amplification.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 September 2016 - 03:43 PM.


#3 FupDup

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 04:13 PM

Let's see...

Nerfing SHS: This is really silly, especially when considering that DHS got their nerf somewhat revoked (the "unfairness" is gone).


Sort of buffing DHS: I still don't understand why you're afraid of having TruDub dissipation before the skill tree is factored in. I will have to do maths later to determine the net outcome of this.


Skill Tree: Meh.


Overheat damage: Meh.


UAC/20: Good. Probably not good enough, but at least you've noticed the issue.


Pulse lasers: Once again, these changes are not making them into DPS weapons. If you want them to be true DPS weapons, you have to do the following:
1. Reduce upfront damage
2. Reduce upfront heat
3. Reduce reload time, pick a value such that the DPS is higher than live server and HPS is lower (heat per second)
4. Reducing beam duration will be needed in some cases if they're going to be rapid-fire

These kind of changes would make pulse lasers into the energy equivalent of dakka like the AC/5. A measly 0.2 faster reload will not accomplish what you think it will.


Also, seriously stop nerfing the LPL. Energy draw does that already.


Quirks: I for one welcome our new old Clam overlords.

Edited by FupDup, 16 September 2016 - 04:18 PM.


#4 Mcgral18

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 04:19 PM

I sincerely hope these changes never touch the live server...

#5 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 04:20 PM

Firing 3x cLPL, on 4th alpha hit critical heat, 5th time just before max heat cap, using T-wolf with 20 DHS on Crimson Strait. Changing it to 4xcLPL and 19DHS, PD kicks in.

Edit
Stagger shots two groups, 5th shot gets to the crit heat level, 6th to just under the cap, 7th shuts down.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 16 September 2016 - 04:33 PM.


#6 Mcgral18

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 04:26 PM

The 3LPL 35 SHS Banshee goes from 28 LOLphas to 17

Or, 756 damage all the way down to 408 damage
I guess I should go do DHS now

#7 MrVei

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 04:26 PM

When can we have a PTS with PPCs have a speed of around 1.6km/s+? 1200-1300 is too slow this a hot weapon like PPCs

#8 Mcgral18

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 04:31 PM

Huh...The 23 DHS Banshee can get 18 LOLphas off, or 432 damage


So, now that all the Large class weapons are mediocre, has the DakkaGeddon been reborn in a much less severe way than previously, for the Spheroid faction? Or PPCs?

#9 Gentleman Reaper

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 04:39 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 16 September 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

I'm not even sure why I repeat myself when it comes to "pulse lasers" and DPS.

Reducing the cooldown for already hot weapons does not improve DPS.

Hot weapons like lasers are not sustainable, unlike dakka.

I feel like the echo chamber needs... amplification.


It's still higher burst-DPS, which is better than sustained DPS since it means you can disengage sooner to cooldown.

#10 FupDup

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 04:48 PM

My maths are complete.

blob:http://imgur.com/978da1b1-ddc6-4463-9517-549962bd5734
Posted Image

Mechs with fewer than 17 DHS are still sad in PTS5, but at least it's not as horrible as PTS4.

Edited by FupDup, 16 September 2016 - 05:02 PM.


#11 Mcgral18

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 04:49 PM

View PostGentleman Reaper, on 16 September 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:


It's still higher burst-DPS, which is better than sustained DPS since it means you can disengage sooner to cooldown.


But practically, it's worse


Your previously 33 damage LOLpha (live) is reduced to a pathetic 24 damage, for the same heat, with a longer duration
Of course, we could ignore the Live server, and just compare the LL to the LPL

LPL
8 damage
7 heat
0.8s duration
3.2s cooldown

LL
8 damage
7 heat
1.1s duration
3.74s cooldown

So, 8 damage and a 4s recycle on the LPL, or 2 DPS
And a 8 damage 4.84s recycle on the LL, or 1.65 DPS

For 2 tons, you have a 17.5% DPS increase!
Practically speaking? It's worthless.


The PPC has 2 DPS as well, and no spread whatsoever (but does have higher heat, 30% more)

#12 Ultimax

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 05:40 PM

OK, right now I'm just going to deal with the atomic nerfing the IS LPL got.


Let's start here:


Posted Image


How is this now a "DPS" weapon?

It does less DPS than it does on live, it has worse damage per ton, it has absolutely awful damage per heat.

No one will touch this weapon, and certainly not for "DPS".


DPS requires heat efficiency.

How many times do those of us actually posting in this forum need to repeat it?




I'm really just stunned at this change, how can the dev team possibly justify a SEVEN TON WEAPON doing 8 damage for 8 heat, when the Clan Medium Pulse at TWO TONS does 8 damage for 6 heat?

That is just utterly ridiculous.




"despite its increased Tonnage, having better Damage, better Beam Duration, and better DPS has made it the clear winner compared to other Large Lasers."


Yes, it needs those things because it has the absolute WORST Range per Ton of any energy weapon in the entire game.


Posted Image


50m per ton, that's all it gets.




To be honest, I feel like the ship has a sail and wind but no rudder.


If the goal is limiting alphas to about 30 damage through Energy Draw - why do weapons also need to be nerf hammered to the point where they are no longer fun?


How high are you trying to get TTK?



If this change goes live, I most certainly would not be touching most energy weapons and definitely not the IS LPL which will quikcly become one of the worst energy weapons in the game.

Edited by Ultimax, 16 September 2016 - 05:41 PM.


#13 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 05:43 PM

This looks like a disaster.

#14 ScarecrowES

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 05:56 PM

I'm confused... is this a Battletech simulator, or a "how pissed off can you make your most loyal customers before they leave for good" simulator?

#15 Deathlike

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 06:07 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 16 September 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

I'm confused... is this a Battletech simulator, or a "how pissed off can you make your most loyal customers before they leave for good" simulator?


You know, this is not a simulator... it's reality, and not everyone realizes we're always playing "this game" with PGI.

#16 FupDup

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 06:13 PM

View PostUltimax, on 16 September 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

...
If this change goes live, I most certainly would not be touching most energy weapons and definitely not the IS LPL which will quikcly become one of the worst energy weapons in the game.

It already was once in the past...PGI sometimes gets nostalgic for repeating old mistakes.

#17 Sereglach

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 06:51 PM

Just going to quote myself from the original post, here, in case PGI is actually reading this thread more than the announcement thread. A few edits have been made from original thoughts:

1. Said it before and I'll say it again, bring flamers into Energy Draw, please. They would work perfect in this system and ditch the convoluted mechanics that they have on live. All you need is 1.0 DPS, 2.0 HDPS, 1.0 HPS, 2.0 EDPS (no regen when firing) or 5.0 EDPS (regen still happens while firing).

2. SHS feel like they should have at least kept the capacity of 1.2. Shrinking both SHS and DHS capacity and upping the skill tree strength really just keeps both in the same capacity standing as before, but you've given DHS more cooling. The more cooling on DHS is good, but the SHS should have been left with higher capacity to make both types more useful, instead of blanket nerfing the SHS. I suppose testing will tell if this was the right move overall (really don't think it was).

3. Good to see UAC/20 given some love. Now just bring the universal jam chance down to about 10% and UAC's should be in a decent place. Then all you need to do is lower the projectile count of Clan standard AC's (half of their UAC counterparts, making the UAC/2 have 2 projectiles) and make the cooldown of standard autocannons 10-15% faster than UAC's across the board, to make up for UAC's superior DPS capability.

4. The reason LPL has been such a hitch in balancing lasers is because right now all the lasers are basically the same. A .1 -.2 second difference in cooldown is not a huge shakeup for weapon variation. To use the IS LPL vs. ERLL vs. LL as an example, you should end up with something like this for truly different weapon systems:

IS LL - Baseline
9 Damage
7 Heat
450/900 Range
1.0 Duration
3.25 Cooldown
DPS (Damage / (Cooldown+Duration)) = 2.12
DPH (Damage / Heat) = 1.29

IS ERLL
9 Damage
8 Heat
675/1350 Range
1.0 Duration
3.75 Cooldown
DPS (Damage / (Cooldown+Duration)) = 1.89
DPH (Damage / Heat) = 1.125

IS LPL
5 Damage
5 Heat
375/750 Range
.5 Duration
1.5 Cooldown
DPS (Damage / (Cooldown+Duration)) = 2.5
DPH (Damage / Heat) = 1

Now, look at that, a high DPS (that's nearly pinpoint, and can be treated as such for ED) high Heat alternative to the Standard and ER lasers, while the ER lasers gain their reach by trading for a longer cooldown and extra heat. That's the kind of drastic change we need to try on this PTS. THAT will actually give us lasers that truly stand apart from each other. That kind of change creates weapons that are different but provide very meaningful choices for pilots to make.

Edited by Sereglach, 18 September 2016 - 06:57 PM.


#18 Ultimax

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 07:56 PM

View PostSereglach, on 16 September 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

IS LPL
5 Damage
5 Heat
375/750 Range
.5 Duration
1.5 Cooldown
DPS (Damage / (Cooldown+Duration)) = 2.5
DPH (Damage / Heat) = 1



This is just bad on several levels, you can not have a DPH of 1 and make it a "DPS" weapon.

The weapon you posted has WORSE DPS than the IS LPL has RIGHT NOW on live.


But, wait, there's more.

5 heat firing every 2s?

That's 2.5 heat per second.


IS PPC right now on live? 2.38 heat per second.

That's right, your "DPS" LPL costs more heat per second than a PPC, with a lower alpha - and therefore higher risk of taking more damage and lower potential to maximize your damage output.

It's a lose/lose weapon.


Energy weapons are not DPS weapons.

The only way to salvage your idea would be for the weapon to cost like 2 heat to fire - which would be ridiculous.

Edited by Ultimax, 16 September 2016 - 07:57 PM.


#19 Sereglach

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 08:24 PM

View PostUltimax, on 16 September 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:




This is just bad on several levels, you can not have a DPH of 1 and make it a "DPS" weapon.

The weapon you posted has WORSE DPS than the IS LPL has RIGHT NOW on live.


But, wait, there's more.

5 heat firing every 2s?

That's 2.5 heat per second.


IS PPC right now on live? 2.38 heat per second.

That's right, your "DPS" LPL costs more heat per second than a PPC, with a lower alpha - and therefore higher risk of taking more damage and lower potential to maximize your damage output.

It's a lose/lose weapon.


Energy weapons are not DPS weapons.

The only way to salvage your idea would be for the weapon to cost like 2 heat to fire - which would be ridiculous.


You don't need to make the concept only cost 2 heat to fire to adjust the numbers you're focusing on.

You're conveniently omitting the fact that if it's 2.5 HPS with 2.5 DPS, then you're currently looking at equal DPS to HPS ratios (EDIT: Forgot to mention . . . of which a current live PPC is only 1.05 DPS to HPS ratio). If you want to run off that ratio comparison, then you don't need to adjust the numbers to the extreme you're stating to get better results.

The LPL on live has a ratio of about 1.57 DPS to HPS ratio. So, if you take the numbers I provided and drop the heat to 3.5 (a mere 1.5 point drop), then you end up with a new HPS of 1.75; and thusly you'd now have a new DPS to HPS ratio of 1.43. On top of it, you've got near pinpoint damage and you're still doing 2.5 DPS. Push the heat down to 3.25 and the ratio jumps to 1.625 DPS to HPS ratio . .. even better than live.

You're "only way to salvage your idea would be for the weapon to cost like 2 heat to fire" truly is ridiculous . . . because then you're talking about a mere 1.0 HPS with 2.5 DPS for a easy to calculate 2.5 DPS to HPS ratio. That's just absurd.

However, one tiny number adjustment and it's a huge difference that's far closer (or even better) to the live effects you're making a big deal about, but still creates a completely different weapon system that's worth trying. While the numbers can be adjusted, there's nothing wrong with giving the premise an actual try.

Edited by Sereglach, 16 September 2016 - 08:45 PM.


#20 FupDup

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 10:32 PM

^^If the goal is to make the IS LPL into a "laser dakka" weapon, then both the DPS and HPS (heat per second) are gonna have to get adjusted more radically than that.

For reference, the live server is currently 2.81 DPS and 1.79 HPS.

For the DPS role, we're going to have to jack it up by a significant margin for it to be worth it. For HPS, that should actually decrease, since we're now concerned about a continuous damage over time weapon.

Maybe something like, I dunno, 3.4 DPS and 1.2 HPS? This is assuming that the weapon is converted to be rapid-fire with low alpha strike damage like an AC/5 or something.





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