30 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

=0=Please Vote=0=
PGI seems driven to make Pulse Lasers DPS weapons,
well what if they were DPS weapons, and fires a Continuous Beam?
making them from just heaver shorter duration lasers into something different,


Current Pulse Laser Stats(ED PTS5)
-
IS Pulse.......Damage...Heat...Duration...Cool-down...Range...DPS...HPS...
SPL..................4............2.........0.60...........2.4...........110......1.67...0.83...
MPL..................6............4.........0.70...........3.1...........220......1.94...1.29...
LPL...................8............7.........0.80...........3.2...........365......2.50...2.18...
-
Clan Pulse...Damage...Heat...Duration...Cool-down...Range...DPS...HPS...
SPL..................6............3.........0.85...........2.5...........165......2.40...1.20...
MPL..................8............6.........0.90...........3.1...........330......2.58...1.94...
LPL.................10............9.........1.20...........3.2...........600......3.13...2.81...



=Continuous Beam Pulse Lasers=
-
IS Pulse.......DPS...HPS...Range...Tonnage...
SPL...............4......2.00.....150...........1.........
MPL...............6......3.00.....250...........2.........
LPL...............10.....5.00.....450...........7.........
-
Clan Pulse...DPS...HPS...Range...Tonnage...
SPL...............5......2.50.....180...........1.........
MPL...............7......3.50.....310...........2.........
LPL...............11.....5.50.....540...........6.........
(Draw would be 1:0.75 like LBX/LRMs)
(3LPL)(4MPL)(5-6SPL)<20DrawPerSec)

=Pulse Damage=
Pulse Lasers DPS= Pulses per second, Lasers are continuous but does damage in Pulses,
where Every Pulse is 1Damage, this allows Pulse lasers to stay within their namesake,
as well as have a controllable way to balance them, Changing their DPS(Pulses),
(Special Thanks to (@GreenHell) for this Idea)

with this Pulse could be made a High Damage High Heat Continuous Beam Laser,
increasing its effectiveness in Brawling as it doesnt let your Target Rest or recover,
as they would have better DPS than others weapons but require full face time,

DPS/HPS could be Increased if needed to Balance Pulse Lasers,
as they would now be a Full DPS/HPS FaceTime weapon,
=0=Please Vote=0=

Thoughts, Comments Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Attached Poll,
Edit2- Stats tuned abit,
Edit3- Stats tuned again,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 September 2016 - 01:47 PM.

[RestosIII]

I'm still biased towards using the MW3 system where they have their own bar that refills while you're not firing, but I think that would be hilarious to watch PGI try to balance from their track record.

[Andi Nagasia]

RestosIII, on 16 September 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

I'm still biased towards using the MW3 system where they have their own bar that refills while you're not firing, but I think that would be hilarious to watch PGI try to balance from their track record.

you mean like the Current Flamer Mechanic?

Edit-
well the Opposite, that fills as you Fire,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 16 September 2016 - 04:40 PM.

[RestosIII]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 September 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

you mean like the Current Flamer Mechanic?

Edit-
well the Opposite, that fills as you Fire,

Basically, this.
https://youtu.be/bh3rZh1Jg_U?t=34

[Gentleman Reaper]

I like the idea, but 6 DPS for a 1 ton weapon? 10 DPS for a 7 ton weapon? That would invalidate every other weapon in the game...

[ScarecrowES]

I am totally in favor of something like this, IN THEORY, but I had to vote no simply because I'm not sure it's within PGI's power to do this in a way that's balanced. It might literally be outside their capability. Moreover, I'm afraid that mechanics like these would probably make pulse lasers simply much better than standard lasers via mechanics alone... that would require such serious nerfs to overcome that it would invalidate the whole point of making them this way.

[cazidin]

While this would certainly make pulse lasers unique, and maybe even more interesting, I simply don't believe that PGI has the staff or resources to implement this properly when they can barely make flamers work and machine guns and LRMs are still incredibly underpowered.

Also, am I the only one who has noticed PGI gradually nerfing the Large Laser family? PTS I the LPL and C-LPL lose 1 damage. Okay, for testing, that's fine... then 2... now 3... and they burn longer, and are arguably hotter. Plus the IS Large Laser got a moderate nerf. If we don't say anything against this we may see them go live with these stats!

[Andi Nagasia]

Gentleman Reaper, on 16 September 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

I like the idea, but 6 DPS for a 1 ton weapon? 10 DPS for a 7 ton weapon? That would invalidate every other weapon in the game...

the values can change but remember this is a full face time weapon,
so you have to stare for the full second to give out the damage,

[Deathlike]

The only time I recall such a design was with Mektek's patches to MW4 for one particular laser.

It would have to be in that vein of design (constant heat, constant damage, constant stream) before it would even be deemed acceptable.

[Sereglach]

I support the premise as a test. The HPS numbers would need to be higher than what you have for them to be reasonable, though. The other kicker is ED and how it would function with these lasers. As with the Flamer suggestion I've been harping on, 2.0 EDPS is fine if ED recharge stops while firing, but if it doesn't stop while firing then draw numbers would need to be vastly larger in comparison to weapon stats (as someone astutely pointed out in my Flamer ED thread).

On the other hand, I'd be perfectly fine -and prefer- pulse lasers that have very short durations and very short cooldowns, with comparable heat and damage adjustments. The example I put on the PTS notes thread in this section, to give an idea, would have the LPL at 5 damage, 5 heat, .5 duration, and 1.5 cooldown.

Regardless, we need pulse lasers that are actually a distinct choice from Standard and ER lasers in order to provide laser types that don't all feel almost the same with mere .1-.2 second differences in core stats.

[MechaBattler]

I would rather they added the Binary Laser with that mechanic. I like the way pulse lasers work currently.

[Ultimax]

No, it would make them awful.

Good luck competing with "DPS" lasers that hit a heat wall before cold ballistics do.


We have a weapon paradigm that has worked for years.

Autocannons:
High Tonnage
Ammo requirement
Low alpha per ton
Low Heat
High DPS

Lasers:
Low Tonnage
No ammo
High alpha per ton
High Heat
Low DPS



PGI doesn't need to reinvent the wheel, they just need to decide if they want Energy Draw to limit alphas OR if they want to nerf weapons - not both.


ED with some minor weapons tweaks would be sufficient, or modifying ghost heat so it doesn't require going to an outside website to understand how big a heat penalty will be.

[RestosIII]

Ultimax, on 16 September 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

ED with some minor weapons tweaks would be sufficient, or modifying ghost heat so it doesn't require going to an outside website to understand how big a heat penalty will be.

Or TT heat penalties. Pretty please?

[Andi Nagasia]

@Ultimax,
right now on the PTS PGI is working to make Pulse Lasers DPS weapons,
Pulse lasers now are same Damage as normal Lasers but -0.01ish Duration & -0.5Cooldown,
right now there is no reason to bring LPLs as ERLLs are better in every way now,

this idea would atleast give PGI a way to Test Pulse Lasers as DPS lasers,
if the tests shot they are even worse ok turn it back, but lets at least try,

[Ultimax]

RestosIII, on 16 September 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

Or TT heat penalties. Pretty please?

There are two main problems with TT heat penalties.

1) This is a live action game where 12 mechs can potentially have clear shots on you, you have split seconds to make decisions in many combat situations - it is not a table top game where everything is slowed down in turn based combat where you have time to shoot the breeze and make combat decisions over hours of dice rolls.


2) Importing TT heat system would see us with massively higher dissipation, we would not be hitting a heat cap riding 90% heat all the time. This is because it is a live action game, and making it take 10s for all weapons to fire would be a boring snooze fest, so we fire anywhere from 2 or 3 times as fast, therefore dissipation would need to be that fast as well (it isn't) - because that is a huge part of firing your weapons and avoiding those heat penalties in the first place.

Andi Nagasia, on 16 September 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

@Ultimax,
right now on the PTS PGI is working to make Pulse Lasers DPS weapons,
Pulse lasers now are same Damage as normal Lasers but -0.01ish Duration & -0.5Cooldown,
right now there is no reason to bring LPLs as ERLLs are better in every way now,

this idea would atleast give PGI a way to Test Pulse Lasers as DPS lasers,
if the tests shot they are even worse ok turn it back, but lets at least try,

No, it is a concept that is flawed to it's core - and anyone who doesn't recognize that really shouldn't be involved in balance conversations.

It's pretty basic stuff.

Edited by Ultimax, 16 September 2016 - 08:10 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Ultimax, on 16 September 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

No, it is a concept that is flawed to it's core - and anyone who doesn't recognize that really shouldn't be involved in balance conversations.

It's pretty basic stuff.

thats abit harsh,
right now all lasers are Burst fire, if Pulse lasers where Beam(like in MW3) they would have new Life,
a new Style of Laser that feels different, so its not just a Laser Upgrade, but a new way to use a Laser,

i can understand you not liking this idea, everyone has their own opinion, and im happy people do,
but to say that anyone that doesnt agree with you shouldnt be involved with Balance(or such Discussions),...
everyones opinion matters, even bad ideas may give someone an idea of how to better something,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 16 September 2016 - 10:09 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Ultimax, on 16 September 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

There are two main problems with TT heat penalties.

1) This is a live action game where 12 mechs can potentially have clear shots on you, you have split seconds to make decisions in many combat situations - it is not a table top game where everything is slowed down in turn based combat where you have time to shoot the breeze and make combat decisions over hours of dice rolls.


2) Importing TT heat system would see us with massively higher dissipation, we would not be hitting a heat cap riding 90% heat all the time. This is because it is a live action game, and making it take 10s for all weapons to fire would be a boring snooze fest, so we fire anywhere from 2 or 3 times as fast, therefore dissipation would need to be that fast as well (it isn't) - because that is a huge part of firing your weapons and avoiding those heat penalties in the first place.

You don't understand how a TT system would work in real time using MWO's existing weapons and build rules. Refer to my thread. Your thinking is well-off from reality.

[FupDup]

To play devil's advocate...would a rapid-fire low-alpha IS LPL with 3.4 DPS and 1.2 HPS be worth it? Too strong? Too weak?

For reference, the live server is 2.81 DPS and 1.79 HPS.


*HPS = Heat Per Second

[ScarecrowES]

FupDup, on 16 September 2016 - 10:37 PM, said:

To play devil's advocate...would a rapid-fire low-alpha IS LPL with 3.4 DPS and 1.2 HPS be worth it? Too strong? Too weak?

For reference, the live server is 2.81 DPS and 1.79 HPS.


*HPS = Heat Per Second

Hard to know. Breaking the output into 2 cycles gives us 5.5 damage, 3.5 heat, 1.96 cycle time at 7 tons and 2 crits. Same DPS and HPS obviously. Compared against AC/5, it doesn't seem to fair well. DPS on the AC/5 is 3, and HPS is 0.6 for a cost of only 3-4 tons (with ammo) and 2 crits. So I suppose we'd have to see how many sinks it takes to run the LPL as cool as the AC/5 to see how it fairs. If that's less than 3-4 tons, then stock values might be ok.

[davoodoo]

Want to make lpl into dps?
It shouldnt massively heat you, im thinking not more than 1 hps per lpl and 3 dps
Cooldown 0.5 dmg 1.5 heat 0.5
Maximum face time 12 dmg per 4s with assault being able to fire 4 pretty much heat neutral

Horribly broken? Yea until you realise your ct is wide open

Edited by davoodoo, 16 September 2016 - 11:59 PM.