27 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

Ok... lets get right to the point with this thread.

After many years PGI is testing the long requested lower heat cap. Yet the request had a second part which was increased Dissipation (to match the TT values).

PGI already implemented the lower heat cap part in PTS4 and PTS5. But strangely, it was done with an over all reduction in heat dissipation, which is completely opposite to the main idea.


My suggestion for fixing the heat sink tuning issue is around balancing the two different types of heat sinks around the trade off between the basic concepts of heat dissipation and capacity.

First, I must mention that all these numbers are based on elite skill bonus currently in the live client, which are:

• Cool Run = 7.5% more heat dissipation on basic and 15% on full elite skill
  
• Heat Containment = 10% more heat capacity on basic and 20% on full elite (applies to the 30 base heat cap)

Lets get to the Double Heat Sinks:

My idea about double heat sinks is exactly about more heat dissipation and lower heat cap... with the emphasis on More Dissipation. I think the following changes should be done:
Double heat sinks should have:

• 0.23 H/s Dissipation rate for both internal and external double heat sinks
  
• Clan DHS should have 1.0 heat cap (both internal and external)
  
• IS DHS should have 1.2 heat cap (both internal and external)

​With the above changes and assuming the skill tree is according to live, we will have the following result for double heat sinks heat capacity for IS and Clan, compared to live client:





However, in exchange for the heat cap reduction, the dissipation rate is increased compared to live client stats as it is depicted here:



This way, double heat sinks will have an emphasis on more heat dissipation rather than heat capacity.

It should be noted that Althought IS weapons produce less heat, however, high crit cost of upgrades along with heavier weapon tonnage and larger double heatsinks makes it hard for IS mechs to have a high number of heat sinks on their mechs.
Therefore, higher heat capacity of the IS double heat sinks is there to offset those shortcomings mentioned.




Now let us see what we can do about Single Heat Sinks:
.
Currently, when it comes to heat management, the SHS loses on every front when compared to far superior Doubles.
To change this situation, One can reverse the trade offs that has been made for Double heat sinks. To do this, Single Heat Sinks can receive large heat capacity bonuses to offset their low dissipation rates.

Therefore, The following changes are suggested for Singe heat sinks (both clan and IS):

• Single heat sinks should have 0.12 H/s dissipation rate (both internal and external)
  
• Single heat sinks should have 2.0 heat capacity (both internal and external)

Those changes will result in the following heat capacity numbers compared to the live client:





In the mean time, the dissipation rates are kept close to the current live client as it is shown here:








Suggested SHS and DHS comparison (Speed vs Stamina):
.
In order to see the clear distinction between the single and double heat sink changes suggested in this thread the following charts are needed:





As we can see above, single and double heatsink will become a Speed vs Stamina pair both having enough advantages and drawbacks making them both viable options in mech customization and balance!

With the suggested changes in this thread SHS and DHS can be different in how they work without one obsoleting the other.
SHS can sustain more heat generation in short bursts... while DHS can sustain more heat generation at long duration close range brawls
As an example, imagine a mech with 20 heatsinks. The amount of heat per second generation it can sustain differs when you consider the burst duration:




TLDR:

• Cool Run and heat Containment stats according to live client

• 0.23 H/s Dissipation rate for both internal and external Double Heat Sinks
  
• Clan DHS should have 1.0 heat cap (both internal and external)
  
• IS DHS should have 1.2 heat cap (both internal and external)

• 0.12 H/s dissipation rate for both internal and external Single Heat Sinks
  
• Single heat sinks should have 2.0 heat capacity (internal and external)

I would welcome any discussion on this.

Edited by Navid A1, 19 September 2016 - 02:24 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

I suppose I should ask why the Clan DHS should be any worse at heat cap than the IS ones, especially given the context that every energy weapon system they have already generates more heat than IS ones?

Yes, there is a tonnage/crit advantage, but that does nothing regarding the heat issue given that is precisely where they pay for that advantage: extra heat from weapon systems. It also puts omnimechs in a really bad spot, seeing as they can neither cap as well as IS mechs with DHS, nor hope to switch to SHS to increase their heat capacities. All the more so if it is a light or medium omnimech which can barely carry enough heat sinks as it is.

Aside from that gripe, I'd not be against trying this out.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 18 September 2016 - 07:09 AM.

[davoodoo]

Of you ask me I wouldnt say that 0.2 is good enough dissipation, unless you want every mech capable o mounting ballistics to actually mount them for heat efficient dmg

Then secondly like already mentioned clans got hotter weapons and their niche is mounting alot of them so it will end with is being superior due to better heat efficiency on top of better brawling and general short range mechs.

lets take stock warhawk with 20 dhs and 4 cerppc, volleyfire with them will have you riding 99% gauge... on forest colony or colder maps, terra therma caustic or desert will overheat it.
And stock nova wont be able to fire 2nd arm without shutdown, not to mention that even with spls it will be too hot for more than 3 volleys, maybe 4 on colder maps.

Edited by davoodoo, 18 September 2016 - 07:58 AM.

[Sereglach]

Not averse to trying this at all. I like the fact that SHS would have a stark difference from DHS and would actually be useful for plenty of builds.

[Navid A1]

Pariah Devalis, on 18 September 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

I suppose I should ask why the Clan DHS should be any worse at heat cap than the IS ones, especially given the context that every energy weapon system they have already generates more heat than IS ones?

Yes, there is a tonnage/crit advantage, but that does nothing regarding the heat issue given that is precisely where they pay for that advantage: extra heat from weapon systems. It also puts omnimechs in a really bad spot, seeing as they can neither cap as well as IS mechs with DHS, nor hope to switch to SHS to increase their heat capacities. All the more so if it is a light or medium omnimech which can barely carry enough heat sinks as it is.

Aside from that gripe, I'd not be against trying this out.

That was something for me to think about.

IS have higher crit requirements for their Endo/FF upgrades compared to clans, and given their larger double heat sinks, they can not pack a large number compared to clan mechs.

Also, 3 crit Double heat sinks means that even if you have enough total crits, you will not be able to pack more heat sinks, because you don't have enough 3 empty crits in one component which very often happens on all IS mechs.

It is also correct that their weapons generate less heat to begin with, but heavier and larger weapons along with shorter range coupled with the above-mentioned larger upgrades and heat sinks mean that they have considerably less space for mounting DHS.... and as a result less dissipation.

That is why I think a more heat cap for those (only 1.2 compared to 1 for clans) can somehow offset the disadvantages.

[Y E O N N E]

I like it, but I am of the opinion that SHS need to offer a bit more capacity than that since high dissipation lets you stretch your capacity if you are firing mostly duration-type weapons.

Also worth noting is that, on PTS5, the increased dissipation has combined with the decreased cap and decreased alpha strikes to drive hard toward a cERML meta. It is so easy to toss 8-10 cERML on a 'Mech with 27-30 cDHS and just ride that line firing one-two and it is extremely hard for the Inner Sphere to keep up without lopsiding the tonnage.

[MechaBattler]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 September 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

I like it, but I am of the opinion that SHS need to offer a bit more capacity than that since high dissipation lets you stretch your capacity if you are firing mostly duration-type weapons.

Also worth noting is that, on PTS5, the increased dissipation has combined with the decreased cap and decreased alpha strikes to drive hard toward a cERML meta. It is so easy to toss 8-10 cERML on a 'Mech with 27-30 cDHS and just ride that line firing one-two and it is extremely hard for the Inner Sphere to keep up without lopsiding the tonnage.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I observed from Sader's PTS5 Stream. You absolutely need to stack dubs. But IS can't compete in that. So they either buff IS dubs or buff IS weapons. Also the joke "Clans have a Large Laser, it's called the cER-Medium laser" was thrown around.

Edited by MechaBattler, 18 September 2016 - 07:38 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 September 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

I like it, but I am of the opinion that SHS need to offer a bit more capacity than that since high dissipation lets you stretch your capacity if you are firing mostly duration-type weapons.

Also worth noting is that, on PTS5, the increased dissipation has combined with the decreased cap and decreased alpha strikes to drive hard toward a cERML meta. It is so easy to toss 8-10 cERML on a 'Mech with 27-30 cDHS and just ride that line firing one-two and it is extremely hard for the Inner Sphere to keep up without lopsiding the tonnage.

6 cERLLs on a Kodiak isn't exactly unsustainable either, in a 3 & 3 configuration
Not cool, but...kinda like a 8 ERML Nova (of course, I used to do 6 + 2, but same principle)
30%+30%

29 DHS is powerful enough.


5 seems to be the effective ERML cap, 35 damage (and ~35% per salvo)

[Y E O N N E]

MechaBattler, on 18 September 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:

Yeah, that's pretty much what I observed from Sader's PTS5 Stream. You absolutely need to stack dubs. But IS can't compete in that. So they either buff IS dubs or buff IS weapons. Also the joke "Clans have a Large Laser, it's called the cER-Medium laser" was throne around.

And it's true. The LL in PTS5 does 1 more point of damage and 1 more point of heat than the cERML for 4 extra tons and an extra slot, and at 1.75x max reach the range difference is negligible. It's a joke. I was there, I played against it.

It's not unfixable, though. Damping the cool-down on the cERML would go a long way toward reigning it in; my own laser table gives it a 5.15 second cool-down to the 4 on the isLL...but my isLL also has 500 meters.

We also discussed buffing the isDHS with a little more dissipation to compensate for not being able to bring as many. That might actually disproportionately buff IS Lights relative to Clan Lights, but every other class would be better aligned. Then again, IS Lights usually have to fire more often to match Clan damage, so it may be a wash.

Mcgral18, on 18 September 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

6 cERLLs on a Kodiak isn't exactly unsustainable either, in a 3 & 3 configuration
Not cool, but...kinda like a 8 ERML Nova (of course, I used to do 6 + 2, but same principle)
30%+30%

29 DHS is powerful enough.


5 seems to be the effective ERML cap, 35 damage (and ~35% per salvo)

Yeah, 5x cERML and a Gauss as a follow-up is going to be common. Though more powerful still is 8x cERML fired 4+4. The cool-down is so short and the dissipation is so high you can keep it up for days. The Gargoyle was really good with it.

cERLL is bonkers OP on PTS5. There's no way that gun should ever make it to Live without some checks being introduced either in the form of a counter on the other side or some nerf to it or its supporting equipment.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 18 September 2016 - 07:32 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

i could Support this, but i fear IS DHS may need a Capacity increase more so, but its a good start to test,

[Navid A1]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 September 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

I like it, but I am of the opinion that SHS need to offer a bit more capacity than that since high dissipation lets you stretch your capacity if you are firing mostly duration-type weapons.

Also worth noting is that, on PTS5, the increased dissipation has combined with the decreased cap and decreased alpha strikes to drive hard toward a cERML meta. It is so easy to toss 8-10 cERML on a 'Mech with 27-30 cDHS and just ride that line firing one-two and it is extremely hard for the Inner Sphere to keep up without lopsiding the tonnage.

Increased dissipation in PTS5 only gives you more dissipation if you pack more than 16 DHS.
Less than 16 and you'll have worse dissipation compared to Live
Even with more than 16 DHS, the increase is very very minimal.

Definitely not an option for light mechs.

For example, The Adder is considerably worse in PTS 5.

Edited by Navid A1, 18 September 2016 - 08:16 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Navid A1, on 18 September 2016 - 08:15 PM, said:

Increased dissipation in PTS5 only gives you more dissipation if you pack more than 16 DHS.
Less than 16 and you'll have worse dissipation compared to Live
Even with more than 16 DHS, the increase is very very minimal.

Definitely not an option for light mechs.

For example, The Adder is considerably worse in PTS 5.

Irrelevant.

First, Lights are pretty much unaffected by the DHS changes in PTS5 by the nature of how they play. I'm shooting and scooting and that's how I've always done it; I rarely have the opportunity to just hold my trigger down and go. My Locusts played identically, save for the lack of quirks.

Second, the presence of Energy Draw reducing volley fire and encouraging DPS play, as well as the fact that the 'Mechs in question have in excess of 24 DHS with those cERML and cERLL, kills that point outright. We have Gargoyles and Kodiaks just charging you and brawling you with weapons that have historically been terrible for that because they were too hot and slow, but on PTS nobody can volley a significantly large alpha to stop it without putting themselves near the cap...where the cERML boats running cold will just mop you up.

[Deathlike]

I was fully aware of the CERMED being too good (it was melting things like butter since its initial change on the PTS, even despite the subsequent range nerf).

The CERLL since its mega buff... I don't even understand why it got overbuffed (mostly in part due to the IS LL unnecessary nerf, and the LPL nerfs for both IS+Clan).

It's just one of those mindnumbing things I simply don't understand. I give up guessing on that matter.

At least this gives "Clans are OP" conspiracy theorists some legit comebacks if this ever goes live...

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 18 September 2016 - 08:59 PM, said:

I was fully aware of the CERMED being too good (it was melting things like butter since its initial change on the PTS, even despite the subsequent range nerf).

The CERLL since its mega buff... I don't even understand why it got overbuffed (mostly in part due to the IS LL unnecessary nerf, and the LPL nerfs for both IS+Clan).

It's just one of those mindnumbing things I simply don't understand. I give up guessing on that matter.

At least this gives "Clans are OP" conspiracy theorists some legit comebacks if this ever goes live...

Even without the weapon changes, without the quirks it is blatantly obvious that the Clans are still better-equipped than the Inner Sphere. It's the same old problems resurfacing all over again: IS can't bring the DHS to keep their few meager weapons cold while glorious Clan Master Race can bring 1-ton LL-equivalents en masse with heat-sinks for days.

I am hoping that PGI will alter the equipment instead of just choosing to blanket it over with quirks again.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 September 2016 - 09:02 PM, said:

Even without the weapon changes, without the quirks it is blatantly obvious that the Clans are still better-equipped than the Inner Sphere. It's the same old problems resurfacing all over again: IS can't bring the DHS to keep their few meager weapons cold while glorious Clan Master Race can bring 1-ton LL-equivalents en masse with heat-sinks for days.

I am hoping that PGI will alter the equipment instead of just choosing to blanket it over with quirks again.

I guess the question is... do you buff IS DHS to be better in some way (probably capacity), or do you reduce the heat values of some of the existing weapons instead (like reducing heat on the SL or ML to their original heat values)?

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 18 September 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

I guess the question is... do you buff IS DHS to be better in some way (probably capacity), or do you reduce the heat values of some of the existing weapons instead (like reducing heat on the SL or ML to their original heat values)?

I can't answer that without knowing the operating environment. Are we trying to keep ED? Are we trying to keep the high-dissipation/low cap around?

Off the cuff, though, I would say you get more for your effort to reduce the heat on the weapons. Alternatively, I would say IS DHS should get slightly more dissipation, not cap.

On my most recent laser tables, I kept the heat higher, and indeed even increased it on certain weapons, because I was assuming we were going for high dissipation/low cap and DPS-oriented gameplay.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 18 September 2016 - 09:12 PM.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 September 2016 - 09:11 PM, said:

I can't answer that without knowing the operating environment. Are we trying to keep ED? Are we trying to keep the high-dissipation/low cap around?

Assume ED is dead and buried (where it should be IMO).

Well, I would like to see Trudubs across the board (if you remove Coolrun, I wouldn't lose sleep over that - it's part of the problem IMO).

Quote

Off the cuff, though, I would say you get more for your effort to reduce the heat on the weapons. Alternatively, I would say IS DHS should get slightly more dissipation, not cap.

I do lean towards most getting all lasers having better heat values (pulse following that track as well)... since I don't even understand the justification for keeping them hotter than the TT values (which were fine in the first place - every single time a weapon is nerfed needlessly, it's the only overreaction we get).

Quote

On my most recent laser tables, I kept the heat higher, and indeed even increased it on certain weapons, because I was assuming we were going for high dissipation/low cap and DPS-oriented gameplay.

Well, I'd like to assume that too, but you'll never know if it'll be kept.

[Navid A1]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 September 2016 - 08:40 PM, said:

Irrelevant.

First, Lights are pretty much unaffected by the DHS changes in PTS5 by the nature of how they play. I'm shooting and scooting and that's how I've always done it; I rarely have the opportunity to just hold my trigger down and go. My Locusts played identically, save for the lack of quirks.

Second, the presence of Energy Draw reducing volley fire and encouraging DPS play, as well as the fact that the 'Mechs in question have in excess of 24 DHS with those cERML and cERLL, kills that point outright. We have Gargoyles and Kodiaks just charging you and brawling you with weapons that have historically been terrible for that because they were too hot and slow, but on PTS nobody can volley a significantly large alpha to stop it without putting themselves near the cap...where the cERML boats running cold will just mop you up.

Anything with less than 16 DHS would perform worse (the extent is debatable)... but it is always worse.

[Y E O N N E]

Navid A1, on 18 September 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

Anything with less than 16 DHS would perform worse (the extent is debatable)... but it is always worse.

Relative to live, though I don't see how that matters. The whole point is to push down the damage output across the board.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 September 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

Relative to live, though I don't see how that matters. The whole point is to push down the damage output across the board.

It's mostly about being nice to mechs that lack the tonnage to boat heatsinks, which namely involves lights and some mediums.