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Another Ed Poll, For Good Measure


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Poll: Does ED plug the holes in GH (15 member(s) have cast votes)

ED contain the alpha's

  1. high alpha's are obtainable without penalty (3 votes [20.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  2. High alpha's are obtainable with penalty (12 votes [80.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.00%

Does Ed encompass all weapon combinations

  1. Yes, (10 votes [66.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  2. No. (5 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 03:22 PM

Since the lates version of ED has now been out for a while, we need to know if it does it's job. I am talking about it's job only and that's to deal with alpha's

So let me clarify.

In relation to the highest mechs armor which is about 60 points mean in the ST's and 100 in the CT
I would consider even a 30 point alpha to be high but that's on the lower spectrum, but it's reasonable, I expect different people to have different standards of a high alpha. Their are ranges of course.

For the second question. I mean does it work under all weapon combinations. Such as when I build a timber with an AC/10 4 srm 6, and some meds, or large. any combination I choose, or you would choose. Doesn't matter

It's best if answers reflect experience in the PTS as well.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 01 October 2016 - 04:41 PM.


#2 VitriolicViolet

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 03:57 PM

before i vote what exactly do you mean by 'does ED encompass all weapon combinations' because as far as im aware it couldnt not encompass them all. as in it couldnt possibly not include all combos. Whether or not the 'encompassing' is relevant/useful is a different question.

Currently imo ,semantically, there are multiple interpretations of that question. Clarity is necessary as to not confuse the issue

#3 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:13 PM

View PostVitriolicViolet, on 01 October 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

before i vote what exactly do you mean by 'does ED encompass all weapon combinations' because as far as im aware it couldnt not encompass them all. as in it couldnt possibly not include all combos. Whether or not the 'encompassing' is relevant/useful is a different question.

Currently imo ,semantically, there are multiple interpretations of that question. Clarity is necessary as to not confuse the issue


AC's with missles, with energy.. or LL with meds, whatver you wan't to build

it's simple as it gets dude.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 01 October 2016 - 04:16 PM.


#4 VitriolicViolet

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:21 PM

Im not an idiot, its just an odd question. It would obviously have to cover all options. i dont get the question. every system has a draw limit, thus when combined they are all affected by ED. Therefore every combo is encompassed.It seems like a deliberate attempt to confuse the issue or simply stating the obvious.

#5 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:25 PM

View PostVitriolicViolet, on 01 October 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

Im not an idiot, its just an odd question. It would obviously have to cover all options. i dont get the question. every system has a draw limit, thus when combined they are all affected by ED. Therefore every combo is encompassed.It seems like a deliberate attempt to confuse the issue or simply stating the obvious.

now you calling me dishonest.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 01 October 2016 - 04:25 PM.


#6 VitriolicViolet

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:26 PM

well think about it. what were you trying to achieve with that question? there is one obvious answer. unless your trying to say that when combo'ed some weapons no longer suffer ED?

#7 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:28 PM

View PostVitriolicViolet, on 01 October 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

well think about it. what were you trying to achieve with that question? there is one obvious answer. unless your trying to say that when combo'ed some weapons no longer suffer ED?

I am saying does ED catch the things you can circumvent in GH.

you are projecting things onto me that I have not demonstrated.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 01 October 2016 - 04:29 PM.


#8 ScarecrowES

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:39 PM

Ugh... Blood, seriously. These questions. What is the point of either of them?

Your first question is so subjective and poorly thought-out that it can't be remotely useful. What's considered a high alpha? Do we count different sized alphas from different weapons? Because a 52-point SRM alpha is pretty high but receives no penalties, but a laser alpha of the same damage would be penalized severely. So technically, on that count alone, the answer is - both. You can achieve high alphas both with AND without penalties. You've got 2 answers that can both be true or false at the same time.

But what's the question trying to find out in the first place? Do people think alphas are objectively curbed in ED? Wouldn't that depend on their subjective view of how high alphas should be - and at this point what weapon system we're talking about? *shrug*

Your second question, as another player already said, is a question with a predetermined answer. Obviously ED "encompasses" all weapons. But is that a goal people actually support? Does ED do it in a way that feels fair to each weapon?

You might as well ask, "does ED penalize doing too much damage at once?" Why yes, yes it does.

Technically-speaking, GH "encompasses" all weapons too. It just doesn't penalize certain combinations. But every weapon has a limit as to how many of that type you can fire without penalties, and what other types can be fired at the same time penalty free. All weapons are "encompassed."

You've really got to think these things out better if you're going to keep doing this.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 01 October 2016 - 04:42 PM.


#9 VitriolicViolet

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:40 PM

I would assume that why you mentioned 'does ED contain the alphas' ,as the major issue with Ghost heat was that it didnt prevent large alphas because it simply limited the amount of the same type of weapon fired. ED limits it to how much damage youve dealt.

so the first question you asked should provide that answer anyway and if it did prevent large alphas then the second question would be irrelevant as then, obviously, there would be no issues . I am weird with language so i personally would have stated as the second question as ' does ED have workarounds?' in order to avoid an issue such as this and because its simply clearer as to what your asking.

Anyway i dont think it prevents alphas at all and in some respects encourages them but i do think it covers everything.

Edited: my first sentence is appalling i know, but i cant be bothered to fix it
and yes i have spent time on the PTS

Edited by VitriolicViolet, 01 October 2016 - 04:46 PM.


#10 Davers

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:52 PM

4 PPC alpha strikes cost like 16 points less heat with ED compared to GH, and that's with the increased heat on PPCs as well. I'd have to vote no to question one.

#11 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 05:09 PM

View PostDavers, on 01 October 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

4 PPC alpha strikes cost like 16 points less heat with ED compared to GH, and that's with the increased heat on PPCs as well. I'd have to vote no to question one.

one thing people mentioned was that GH was too strict on penalties and that ED shouldn't be so penalizing. Maybe it's not the best route to take, I dunno

#12 Davers

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 05:59 PM

View PostBLOOD WOLF, on 01 October 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

one thing people mentioned was that GH was too strict on penalties and that ED shouldn't be so penalizing. Maybe it's not the best route to take, I dunno


I'm neither pro nor con ED, but I get nervous when PPFLD weapons get stronger, while the heat from large SRM strikes are literally doubled. I fear it's a return to a stale standoff meta where there is little point in closing and using short range weapons.

#13 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 06:07 PM

View PostDavers, on 01 October 2016 - 05:59 PM, said:

I'm neither pro nor con ED, but I get nervous when PPFLD weapons get stronger, while the heat from large SRM strikes are literally doubled. I fear it's a return to a stale standoff meta where there is little point in closing and using short range weapons.

I feel like that might be up to the players. regardless of what it is, people can sit back at range. which is common tactic in the solo que.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 01 October 2016 - 06:07 PM.


#14 Wintersdark

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 06:26 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 01 October 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

Ugh... Blood, seriously. These questions. What is the point of either of them?

Your first question is so subjective and poorly thought-out that it can't be remotely useful. What's considered a high alpha? Do we count different sized alphas from different weapons? Because a 52-point SRM alpha is pretty high but receives no penalties, but a laser alpha of the same damage would be penalized severely. So technically, on that count alone, the answer is - both. You can achieve high alphas both with AND without penalties. You've got 2 answers that can both be true or false at the same time.

But what's the question trying to find out in the first place? Do people think alphas are objectively curbed in ED? Wouldn't that depend on their subjective view of how high alphas should be - and at this point what weapon system we're talking about? *shrug*

Your second question, as another player already said, is a question with a predetermined answer. Obviously ED "encompasses" all weapons. But is that a goal people actually support? Does ED do it in a way that feels fair to each weapon?

You might as well ask, "does ED penalize doing too much damage at once?" Why yes, yes it does.

Technically-speaking, GH "encompasses" all weapons too. It just doesn't penalize certain combinations. But every weapon has a limit as to how many of that type you can fire without penalties, and what other types can be fired at the same time penalty free. All weapons are "encompassed."

You've really got to think these things out better if you're going to keep doing this.

Indeed.

Whatever one's feelings on ED, the poll itself is so vague as to be completely useless.

Blood, if you want to post a poll, particularly one on a contentious issue like this, you need to rub them brain cells hard together and come up with a clear and specific poll; preferably one that isn't leading either way. Really, though, as I've seen the other poll posts you've made and either deleted or had deleted...

Just don't.

For example, while I'm generally fairly supportive of ED (with again the caveat that I don't feel it's the best way to go; I just prefer it to GH) the actual question is very important. If you asked, "Would you like the current state of the PTS to go live as is?" I'd emphatically say no. Because the specific set of changes in the current PTS really don't work well for me. That has nothing to do with ED as a system though.

And really, this is where it boils down. You can't really ask a good question, given how mixed up the tests are. I mean, I love the global cooldown nerf to all the weapons on the PTS, but I think the laser nerfs were terrible. I love lower heat cap, but find the lower dissipation of the previous PTS to be absurdly limiting; and indeed I find the notion of the tightened heat capacity and ED simultaneously to be overdoing things. But individually, there's lots of stuff on the various PTS's that I've really liked.

So, really, any question you ask is almost certainly going to get "No" as an answer, because it's a lot easier to just say "No" than get through the obstacle course.

Edited by Wintersdark, 01 October 2016 - 06:27 PM.


#15 Davers

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 06:33 PM

View PostBLOOD WOLF, on 01 October 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

I feel like that might be up to the players. regardless of what it is, people can sit back at range. which is common tactic in the solo que.


It is, but that's due to poor communication, lack of trust in their teammates, and inability to coordinate drop decks. Right now a brawl team that is decisive can wreck a poke team. But if short range brawling weapons are too hot then they can't and playing poke will be the only viable option.

I'm not saying this is guaranteed to play out this way, I felt the games in the ppc+gauss era were some of the most boring and frustrating out of all the metas. I'd rather not return to it.

Edited by Davers, 01 October 2016 - 06:35 PM.


#16 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 06:56 PM

View PostDavers, on 01 October 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:

It is, but that's due to poor communication, lack of trust in their teammates, and inability to coordinate drop decks. Right now a brawl team that is decisive can wreck a poke team. But if short range brawling weapons are too hot then they can't and playing poke will be the only viable option.

I'm not saying this is guaranteed to play out this way, I felt the games in the ppc+gauss era were some of the most boring and frustrating out of all the metas. I'd rather not return to it.

hmm. you make a good point.

#17 Reno Blade

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 08:02 PM

could you create a new poll where the main question "do you feel that Energy Draw of Pts5 is ready for a life test?" has these answer options:
- ready for live
- good, but requires minor tweaks
- decent, but require major tweaks
- poorly, requires bigger changes
- not working/no effect (or something like that)

then add more poll options for "strongly agree, agree, its ok, disagree, strongly disagree".
now for questions:
ED vs GH in general. do you feel that...
- ED is an improvement to heat scale ( GH) in general?
- ED is easy to understand (compared to GH)?
- ED penalizes too much dmg per volley for all weapon types and combos hard enough?
- ED cap of 30 and regen of 20/sec is high enough?

for value specific questions, maybe use something like "should be much higher", "higher", "good value", "lower", and "much lower" as options.
Value specific questions
- ED penalty of 1.4x heat per energy over the 30 limit is high enough to limit volley damage?
- ED ratio of 1 energy for 1 dmg for Frontloaded pinpoint dmg weapons (single projectiles such as AC and PPC) is high enough?
- ED ratio of 0.9 energy for 1 dmg of laser weapons is high enough?
- ED ratio of 0.75 energy for 1 dmg of SRM weapons is high enough?
- ED ratio of 0.75 energy for 1 dmg of LRM weapons is high enough?
- ED ratio of 0.75 energy of 1 dmg of LBX weapons is high enough?

and another poll
cd and heat specific poll (basic stats, not ED related)
- Global cooldown reduction is good enough?
- Skill reductions for heat is good?
- Module reductions for cooldown is good?
- Shs dissipation is good?
- Shs capacity is good?
- Dhs dissipation is good?
- Dhs capacity is good?
- minimum starting heat capacity is good?

weapon specific poll (basic stats, not ED related)
- values of ACs are good?
- values of UACs are good?
- values of laser are good in general?
- values of Large Lasr are good?
- values of pulse lasers are good in general?
- values of PPCs and cERPPCs are good?
- values of Gauss are good?
- values of SRMs are good?
- values of LRMs are good?
- values of Streaks are good?
-

this way, we will get all topics with decent options to vote for. as i'm on the phone, i can't really create these myself today, so i would appreciate if you could create thee polls.


#18 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 08:05 PM

View PostReno Blade, on 01 October 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

could you create a new poll where the main question "do you feel that Energy Draw of Pts5 is ready for a life test?" has these answer options:
- ready for live
- good, but requires minor tweaks
- decent, but require major tweaks
- poorly, requires bigger changes
- not working/no effect (or something like that)

then add more poll options for "strongly agree, agree, its ok, disagree, strongly disagree".
now for questions:
ED vs GH in general. do you feel that...
- ED is an improvement to heat scale ( GH) in general?
- ED is easy to understand (compared to GH)?
- ED penalizes too much dmg per volley for all weapon types and combos hard enough?
- ED cap of 30 and regen of 20/sec is high enough?

for value specific questions, maybe use something like "should be much higher", "higher", "good value", "lower", and "much lower" as options.
Value specific questions
- ED penalty of 1.4x heat per energy over the 30 limit is high enough to limit volley damage?
- ED ratio of 1 energy for 1 dmg for Frontloaded pinpoint dmg weapons (single projectiles such as AC and PPC) is high enough?
- ED ratio of 0.9 energy for 1 dmg of laser weapons is high enough?
- ED ratio of 0.75 energy for 1 dmg of SRM weapons is high enough?
- ED ratio of 0.75 energy for 1 dmg of LRM weapons is high enough?
- ED ratio of 0.75 energy of 1 dmg of LBX weapons is high enough?

and another poll
cd and heat specific poll (basic stats, not ED related)
- Global cooldown reduction is good enough?
- Skill reductions for heat is good?
- Module reductions for cooldown is good?
- Shs dissipation is good?
- Shs capacity is good?
- Dhs dissipation is good?
- Dhs capacity is good?
- minimum starting heat capacity is good?

weapon specific poll (basic stats, not ED related)
- values of ACs are good?
- values of UACs are good?
- values of laser are good in general?
- values of Large Lasr are good?
- values of pulse lasers are good in general?
- values of PPCs and cERPPCs are good?
- values of Gauss are good?
- values of SRMs are good?
- values of LRMs are good?
- values of Streaks are good?
-

this way, we will get all topics with decent options to vote for. as i'm on the phone, i can't really create these myself today, so i would appreciate if you could create thee polls.

This poll was just to answer some questions. Since ED is a replacement for GH, it needs to close the loopholes.

It also needs to suppress alphas' hence the two questions asked

Honestly I think you should make the poll. I feel you better understand your topics. I wouldn't do it better than you could.

If i have time I will try.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 01 October 2016 - 08:15 PM.


#19 Tombs Clawtooth

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 10:16 PM

Why not a question of whether "Do you prefer PTS5 or Live?"

If the majority of people don't like the system, it doesn't matter how effective it is at doing what it's attempting to.

Edited by Tombs Clawtooth, 01 October 2016 - 10:17 PM.


#20 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 10:57 PM

View PostTombs Clawtooth, on 01 October 2016 - 10:16 PM, said:

Why not a question of whether "Do you prefer PTS5 or Live?"

If the majority of people don't like the system, it doesn't matter how effective it is at doing what it's attempting to.

sorry, this thread was to get a feel for if people felt that ED does the job it's supposed to do. PTS5 encompasses more changes than just alpha.

not liking the system has no bearing on what the system is actually supposed to do.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 01 October 2016 - 11:39 PM.






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