220 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

MrMadguy, on 14 October 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

This is old topic, I explained 100500 times already. I really don't want to do it again, cuz if you don't understand, how MM works - then it will be hard for you to understand, why you're wrong. Read thread, linked in my sig for reference.

Short version: it's MM, that is supposed to match me with/against players with equal level of skill.

As 1 player of 12 can't be difference between win and loss (I have profs, where 2-3 players were AFK, but team won match anyway, lol):
1) W/L <> 1 means matchmaker constantly fails to balance 2 teams.
2) W/L = 1, but K/D <> 1 and AvgMS <> 200 - matchmaker can balance teams, but fails to find players with skill, equal to yours - your skill is either lower, than team's average, or higher.

I.e. the fact, that my K/D < 1 and AvgMS < 200 means only one thing - MM uses me for padding Tier 1 teams. I'm punching bag for them and they simply carried me to such high rating, where I don't belong to.



Also. AvgMS - is part of rating calculation algorithm. Simply because the higher rating is - the higher skill level of enemies is - the harder for you to achieve the same K/D and MS. Stabilization level - is around 200MS. If my MS < 200, then my rating is too high for my skill level. It should drop. But it doesn't, as PGI's matchmaker is completely broken.

Actually... It drops, but way too slowly. In some other thread I've posted history of my rating - I lose around 10% per month, while in my LRM60 boat I can gain 50% within just 1-2 hours. Obvious imbalance and bias towards increasing.

Wait, if it's the MM, why is it that I can manage a 1:1 kdr? Think the MM just singles you out? It just has a MrMadGuy algorithm?

Mines just 1:1, and I know why it's there - I usually don't try particularly hard in pubqueue play - and the lights portion of this event has been rather challenging for me (I'm *TERRIBLE* in lights). But this is the point.

Mine is 1:1, not because the MM is good for me or bad for me, but because I'm not trying terribly hard, and I'm playing poorly in a good chunk of those matches. It's 1:1 because I am being bad, when we boil it down.



Take responsibility, don't just blame your failure on everything else.

[Grimvid]

Wintersdark, on 14 October 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

No, they in fact did, repeatedly.

From literally day one in this game (that is, even before Beta started, when they were selling Founders packs) they stated that a key aspect of MWO's design was that all mechs would be equally viable. In fact, back as far as their initial sales pitch that was a key aspect; that you don't progress from lights>mediums>heavies>assaults, and that it's not a linear increase in power.

This is a fundamental part of MWO's design, a core aspect of gameplay.

It doesn't work that well in practice, because even the "OP" lights (that is, the top couple of lights) are rather terrible when compared to the best heavies/assaults.

There is no lack of clarity here.

I agree, they did state that is some very long paragraphs. The founders were even complaining about the lights being useless in the earlier games (MW3 and MW4).

[Kaeb Odellas]

Deathlike, on 14 October 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

Maybe it's just me, but my K-D ratio has gotten up since the archiving.

Perhaps, you are actually reaching that glass ceiling and don't know how to break it.

I'm certainly not a great player by any means, and I'm still doing better now than I did before. Maybe you need to look at yourself and see what's up.

My K:D plummeted after the archive. I'm sitting at 1.48 now. My archive K:D is 2.73

[Shiroi Tsuki]

RestosIII, on 12 October 2016 - 05:08 PM, said:

Leaking Obscene Liquids.

Ahh, there is a reason why you're my favorite forum member here in MWO

[MrMadguy]

Dakota1000, on 14 October 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Darn, there's so much bad in this post. How in the world does a whole team manage to get stopped up by a single ERLL Raven? The most they can even have is 3, its only 29 damage and less than that at 1000m. All you had to do in that situation was spread damage to the arms a bit and move on to the central area of the map.

I usually run adv zoom also, since I have a turn of the century tiny CRT monitor, with it I do fine hitting components, if people are actually standing still I've shot their head out with clan ERML. I've also continued brawls as last man alive while under fire from ACs, LRMs, and lasers from multiple positions from 6 or more enemies as last man and still killed the enemy I was battling because none of it actually interferes with crosshair position, so all you have to do is have your enemy targeted and aim for center of the box.

Have you tried getting good rather than claiming hacks and OP equipment on other mechs? Usually training usually consists of having bad odds anyway, running with a weighed jacket so when you get to the race you fly. Apparently you haven't done even remotely well since back in beta when you used a bunch of Atlases in a time where the majority of players wouldn't afford one.

How? You answered your own question. Nobody would want to lose 29 points of armor just for nothing. For example my STs have just 52-56 armor. He can literally 2-shot my ST. And that's, what I was talking about. This guys are able to put precise ST shots from 1K meters, while moving, and without Adv Zoom, cuz they usually use module slot for more OP module, like Seismic. And I can't hit this fast moving pixel from such distance even with Adv Zoon. Yeah, I tried to duel with him, cuz I had ER-LLs too, but... After several Alphas my front armor became orange and he didn't seem to be even bothered about half of my team, shotting at him. With current Meta every point of armor is important. Ruined armor = instant death, when you'll face other enemy face to face. That's why nobody wants to lose it "out of combat". That's why it's cheat.

Wintersdark, on 14 October 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

Wait, if it's the MM, why is it that I can manage a 1:1 kdr? Think the MM just singles you out? It just has a MrMadGuy algorithm?

Mines just 1:1, and I know why it's there - I usually don't try particularly hard in pubqueue play - and the lights portion of this event has been rather challenging for me (I'm *TERRIBLE* in lights). But this is the point.

Mine is 1:1, not because the MM is good for me or bad for me, but because I'm not trying terribly hard, and I'm playing poorly in a good chunk of those matches. It's 1:1 because I am being bad, when we boil it down.



Take responsibility, don't just blame your failure on everything else.

As you can see from my old stats, I was perfectly managing K/D = 1 in the past.

Then I reached Tier 3 Hell, where I don't belong to, I guess...

Zergling, on 14 October 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

Sorry, but I have to be brutally honest here. There is only one thing that you don't have, that they have. Skill.

You all don't even understand core idea behind matchmaker. Core idea - is to match players with equal skills against each other, so they will have equal performances, equal chances to win, equal W/Ls, equal K/Ds, equal AvgMS, equal rewards. Yeah, you know, that everybody is supposed to have W/L = 1. And this is exactly how ELO-based MM works - it just keeps you W/L = 1. But if you would read articles about ELO-like matchmakers, you would find out, that keeping W/L = 1 is enough for 1vs1 games only. For teams, especially if it's teams of random players, personal performance should be taken into account. Yeah, PGI set this AvgMS, that should be equal for everybody, to 200MS mark.

But due to some reasons, this MM simply doesn't work. Major reason - is bias towards increasing, I guess. Avg skill level of players constantly fluctuates, but it's much easier to rise, than to drop.

So. What you can't understand, is one simple thing. There are 12 players in your team. There are 12 players in enemy team. In 100% balanced situation 1 player is supposed to kill 1 enemy. That's, what K/D = 1 means. So, if my K/D < 1, then it means one simple thing - some other player has to kill two enemies, instead of 1. He has to carry me.

And this simple fact, that some players in your teams constantly (not just in this particular match, cuz there are RNG factor involved here) have performance below average and some have performance above average - then it means, that teams aren't balanced and/or evened. Simple conclusion - MM fails to do it's job. And this is unfair. Simply because not equal performances => not equal chances to win => not equal AvgMSes => not equal rewards.

It would be surprise for you, you will be shocked, but core idea of MM - all players should have equal average rewards. ALL PLAYERS. No matter, how high your skill is. No matter, that your skill is higher, than mine. You should be playing against equal enemies, so your performance should be exactly the same. Same with rewarods. Situation, where one player have 100dmg, 0 kills, 130MS, 35K CB and other 1K dmg, 8 kills, 800MS and 300K CB - SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN. All players are supposed to be evened out at 1 kill and 200MS. It's around 100K CB and 1K XP.

If it doesn't happen, then there are only two conclusions:
1) Players still haven't settled at their ratings
2) MM simply doesn't work

#1 isn't likely, cuz this crap have been happening for weeks, months and years already - enough time for players to settle at their ratings.

My PSR drops... But the biggest questing is: if it have to drop for weeks and months, then...how did I even get so high in a first place?????? HOW???





You know. Unfortunately I don't have this screenshots, but right before previous qutting I managed to drop my rating down to 50% Tier 3 - my initial rating, when PSR was implemented. It was really hard to achieve this goal. I had been losing for weeks and months. But... As you can see, all of a sudden at some point just a few decent matches brought me back to the edge of Tier 2. It happened really fast - within just a few days.

So, now you understand, why players quit this game. Working hard for weeks and months, losing again, again and again, dying again, again and again...only to lose all results of this hard work within just a few hours, lol.

Edited by MrMadguy, 14 October 2016 - 08:40 PM.

[adamts01]

MrMadguy, on 14 October 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

How? You answered your own question. Nobody would want to lose 29 points of armor just for nothing. For example my STs have just 52-56 armor. He can literally 2-shot my ST. And that's, what I was talking about. This guys are able to put precise ST shots from 1K meters, while moving, and without Adv Zoom, cuz they usually use module slot for more OP module, like Seismic. And I can't hit this fast moving pixel from such distance even with Adv Zoon. Yeah, I tried to duel with him, cuz I had ER-LLs too, but... After several Alphas my front armor became orange and he didn't seem to be even bothered about half of my team, shotting at him. With current Meta every point of armor is important. Ruined armor = instant death, when you'll face other enemy face to face. That's why nobody wants to lose it "out of combat". That's why it's cheat.

There's a reason the best players use double gauss & double PPC. It's versatile and nasty at typical engagemet ranges, with very little exposure time to return fire. If you got just one single hit with either the guass or PPC combo then it's lights out for that Raven. Those ERLLs have a very long burn time, that's a lot of time to get a return shot. If you're running daka, then stay in cover till you're close enough.

MrMadguy, on 14 October 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Eh. This game is completely broken. First match of the day and I instantly faced ER-LL Raven abuser at HPG, shotting from 100500m, that was preventing my team from maneuvering and my team was completely stomped as the result, as enemies were able to openly attack and focus fire. I don't want to play this game, till this cheat won't be eliminated. There should be some balance between size, speed, armor, firepower and range. When some 'Mechs can have all this things at once - they turn into complete gamebreaking cheat.

Yeah, now I have to play ER-LL vomit build too, cuz it's literally the only viable build in while game (except may be Dakka), but... You should realize my level of skill. You should know, that Adv Zoom module is 100% mandatory for me, cuz I can't even hit anything without it. And even with it and can't hit this freaking pixels from such long distance. And I actually can't understand, how some other players can put precise ST shots from 100500 meters without even having Adv Zoom and while being under AC/LRM fire. For example I can't even see anything in this case, not even talking about precisely aiming at something. How can they do it without some auto-aim cheat?

You need to stop being silly. Most of the community is more than willing to help anyone who needs it. First of all, stop exaggerating if you want anyone to take you seriously. Nothing can hit from 100500 meters. Maps aren't even that big. Without giving us accurate ranges, there's no way to tell what was going on and what could have been done differently. Secondly, it's not a cheat, it's skill. Some people are better shots, lots of people are better than I'll ever be. And plenty will be better than you'll ever be, no matter how hard you try, that's just the way of the world. But there are things you can do to get better. There are lots of free programs out there to improve your aim, check them out, and do some of those drills for just a few minutes each day before you start. I've never taken gaming that seriously, but it might help you. Get a huge mousepad or just clear a huge area and use your desk. This lets you lower your mouse sensitivity for better aiming control, while still giving you the room to move your mouse almost a foot to the left or right to turn quickly. Some people can get by with a small mouse pad and high dps, but I've never been able to, I just don't have that control. Bring the right tool for the job. This is difficult in solo que because you don't know what map you'll be on or where your team will be deficient. So the trick is to know what you're good at, and position yourself to take advantage of your strengths. This is why I always prefer smaller and faster mechs over assaults, it's much easier to control engagement distances and pick and choose your fights. Assaults are much more difficult in that regard. In any case, don't try to countersnipe with a daka build. That's why you see so many LPLs, AC10s and MLs, they're very versatile weapons. Lastly keep in mind that anyone still choosing to play a light after all the nerfs they've received is probably an exceptional player that knows who and when to attack, so be weary. I don't know if you've joined a unit yet, but that's really the best way to get better. Keep an open mind and learn a little from everyone. And check out YouTube for tips, plenty of great players have walkthroughs that can help. But first step is to accept it's not MM or cheating, and figure out how to get better at what it is you like to do.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MrMadguy, on 14 October 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

How? You answered your own question. Nobody would want to lose 29 points of armor just for nothing. For example my STs have just 52-56 armor. He can literally 2-shot my ST. And that's, what I was talking about. This guys are able to put precise ST shots from 1K meters, while moving, and without Adv Zoom, cuz they usually use module slot for more OP module, like Seismic. And I can't hit this fast moving pixel from such distance even with Adv Zoon. Yeah, I tried to duel with him, cuz I had ER-LLs too, but... After several Alphas my front armor became orange and he didn't seem to be even bothered about half of my team, shotting at him. With current Meta every point of armor is important. Ruined armor = instant death, when you'll face other enemy face to face. That's why nobody wants to lose it "out of combat". That's why it's cheat.

He deals under 29 armor at that range. You know why I said to move forward though? It puts you in cover and also in a place that gives your and your team more of an advantage. Staying at the spawn gate on HPG is a mistake no one should make, it leaves you open and lets the enemy team run at you in full force, all you have to do to avoid that is walk forward. There is even an under part on the HPG map to completely make it impossible for that Raven to use long range against you.

I also said to spread damage, the approximately 20 points of damage he'd do at 1000m spread between 5 components would be 4 damage per section all over a very heavily armored assault mech. You could also increase frontal armor more heavily if it means so much to you.

Lastly I ask what part of this is a cheat? You have ER large lasers and more armor and better cooling for those ERLLs as an assault. Apparently half your team was also firing at him, yet you all managed to miss enough shots or spread damage so heavily that a 35 ton light mech survived the fire while you all failed to spread the damage from that one mech between your force, or just negate it entirely by moving to a good position, letting him take full advantage of his apparently superior position.

At what part did he have an unfair advantage? He seems to be at a heavy disadvantage in *every* single point you made.

[adamts01]

MrMadguy, on 14 October 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

So. What you can't understand, is one simple thing. There are 12 players in your team. There are 12 players in enemy team. In 100% balanced situation 1 player is supposed to kill 1 enemy. That's, what K/D = 1 means. So, if my K/D < 1, then it means one simple thing - some other player has to kill two enemies, instead of 1. He has to carry me.

I agree MM and PSR suck. Everyone called this from the beginning. But it is what it is, so focus on getting good. One thing you shouldn't focus on is K/D. You can core every player on the enemy team and not happen to be the one who gets the kill. It doesn't mater, only W/L. In plenty of situations, it's better to let the weaponless mech get away, lose the kill to some stat *****, and focus on the greatest threat. Once the greatest threat is weaponless, let the vultures get him and move on to the next biggest threat. The leaderboards and events ruin teamplay by incentivising players to throw teamwork and reasoning out the window. Make decisions based on what's good for the win, not for numbers.

[Dino Might]

Mad,
Do us all a favor. Just use one of these "game breaking cheat" mechs and report back how it worked for you. The results should be eye opening to one of us.

[MrMadguy]

adamts01, on 14 October 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

I agree MM and PSR suck. Everyone called this from the beginning. But it is what it is, so focus on getting good. One thing you shouldn't focus on is K/D. You can core every player on the enemy team and not happen to be the one who gets the kill. It doesn't mater, only W/L. In plenty of situations, it's better to let the weaponless mech get away, lose the kill to some stat *****, and focus on the greatest threat. Once the greatest threat is weaponless, let the vultures get him and move on to the next biggest threat. The leaderboards and events ruin teamplay by incentivising players to throw teamwork and reasoning out the window. Make decisions based on what's good for the win, not for numbers.

I just don't enjoy game, when I don't contribute anything towards victory, sorry. This is not game, when it boils down to drop -> meet first enemy -> die -> quit. Game - is something, that is meant to be played by definition. I NEED TO ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME. All games, that has pretty visual design, but broken game mechanics, such as broken controls - have always been considered bad games.

Dino Might, on 14 October 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

Mad,
Do us all a favor. Just use one of these "game breaking cheat" mechs and report back how it worked for you. The results should be eye opening to one of us.

If ACH is too OP, then here is COM:

Edited by MrMadguy, 14 October 2016 - 09:20 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

MrMadguy, on 14 October 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

How? You answered your own question. Nobody would want to lose 29 points of armor just for nothing.

here's me, the t5 guy speaking again.

the erll has an effective range of 675m. over that, the damage drop off is huge.

if the raven is shooting you with his erlls at distances over 800m, YES. I'D TAKE THAT ARMOR LOSS. especially if my lurmers are within 1km range of him.

i'd actually press "r" to lock on him, take my left hand off my keyboard, stand there and bathe in his light show while torso twisting around to spread.

because it's a good TRADE. i sacrifice a small amount of armour off my mech while this guy gets walloped with lurms. GOOD TRADE.

good trades are how you win games. ducking and hiding when he splashes you with an erll at less than optimal range is a good trade for the raven. because he's dealing damage while you're not. that's how HE won the game.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 14 October 2016 - 09:28 PM.

[adamts01]

MrMadguy, on 14 October 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

I just don't enjoy game, when I don't contribute anything towards victory, sorry. This is not game, when it boils down to drop -> meet first enemy -> die -> quit. Game - is something, that is meant to be played by definition. I NEED TO ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME. All games, that has pretty visual design, but broken game mechanics, such as broken controls - have always been considered bad games.

There you go exaggerating again. How do I know? You posted pictures of you kicking *** and carrying the team. Maybe you're not cut out to drive assaults. I'm well above average in lights, but I just can't fathom how people make an Atlas work consistently. I keep assaults away from my hanger like they're the plague. If you run out and instantly die, you've over-committed, that's really all there is to it. Or sometimes left behind in your Dire on Caustic. Keep up with the Cheetah, it looks like you've found your niche if you can consistently pull those kinds of numbers.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

adamts01, on 14 October 2016 - 09:28 PM, said:

There you go exaggerating again. How do I know? You posted pictures of you kicking *** and carrying the team. Maybe you're not cut out to drive assaults. I'm well above average in lights, but I just can't fathom how people make an Atlas work consistently. I keep assaults away from my hanger like they're the plague. If you run out and instantly die, you've over-committed, that's really all there is to it. Or sometimes left behind in your Dire on Caustic. Keep up with the Cheetah, it looks like you've found your niche if you can consistently pull those kinds of numbers.

Assaults aren't for everyone. Same can be said of any class.

I know a guy who only uses light mechs and apparently enjoys it, though I've never seen the guy pull a match over 200 points of damage. Usually under 100. He's running MG and LRM Ravens or PPC commandos anyway though, so hes just doing his thing, I just don't call him to the serious drops anymore.

So drive what you enjoy. Apparently you (MrMadGuy) don't enjoy driving those assaults with all the complaining you do, try something faster. A lot of your problems from the losses you describe seem to be due to bad positioning, being focus fired, or being an easy target. With a light you are fast enough that your positioning isn't so important, you can correct your mistakes and maybe eventually learn good positioning by scouting out in matches enough to know how matches go so you don't put yourself in bad positions as much. You also normally don't get focused down heavily as a light mech unless you go running at an undistracted group of players. Last, you won't be the broadside of a barn with torsos that just about anyone can pick apart at range.

Try out some fast jumpy small stuff I guess.

[adamts01]

Dakota1000, on 14 October 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

So drive what you enjoy. Apparently you (MrMadGuy) don't enjoy driving those assaults with all the complaining you do

I've never once complained about assaults. I complain about the KDK3, because I think it's an overpowered mess, but no more than I complained about the Oxide or the Blackjack. I'm also fine not being good in them, I've never liked brute forcing my way through games. Maneuvering and stealth have always been my thing. Anyway, that's that, I don't know how much of your comments were directed at me, since you addressed us both.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

adamts01, on 14 October 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

I've never once complained about assaults. I complain about the KDK3, because I think it's an overpowered mess, but no more than I complained about the Oxide or the Blackjack. I'm also fine not being good in them, I've never liked brute forcing my way through games. Maneuvering and stealth have always been my thing. Anyway, that's that, I don't know how much of your comments were directed at me, since you addressed us both.

That part you quoted and everything after the part I specified (MrMadGuy) were directed only at him. Part above that was general, but I quoted you since we were talking about something pretty related.

[adamts01]

Dakota1000, on 14 October 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

That part you quoted and everything after the part I specified (MrMadGuy) were directed only at him. Part above that was general, but I quoted you since we were talking about something pretty related.

Haha. Now I see. My girlfriend is out of town for the weekend and didn't stock the house with easy snacks, so my reading comprehension is nonexistent without eating first. Terrible excuse, I should cook on my own, but she really has me spoiled in the food department. Got to stock up on pizza and beer to get me through till Monday. Went out for a quick bite so I'm all ready to start arguing again.

[762 NATO]

Couple things. I suck at lights since the rescale. I can live with that. My KDR was near 2.0 when I hit Tier3. When I got to Tier2 it dropped below 1.0. Please put me back in Tier3 where there are fewer meta builds and I could peek a ridge without taking two alpha to the CT that killed me.

Also, I totally dropshot, no zoom drilled a locust in the ST with dual guass at 500+ m tonight. Pure luck and it felt glorious. If he had been going forwards instead of backwards he probably would have lived.

Cheers!

[Mystere]

Dino Might, on 14 October 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

Mad,
Do us all a favor. Just use one of these "game breaking cheat" mechs and report back how it worked for you. The results should be eye opening to one of us.

Meh! He'll just run several dozen games, post only the few ones that did well, and claim that he was right all along.

MrMadguy, on 14 October 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

As predicted.

[Zergling]

MrMadguy, on 14 October 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

/snip lots of Dunning-Kruger effect excuse making

Stop. Making. Excuses.

If your PSR is dropping, it is because you are a beyond terrible player, literally one of the worst in the game.

MrMadguy, on 14 October 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

I just don't enjoy game, when I don't contribute anything towards victory, sorry. This is not game, when it boils down to drop -> meet first enemy -> die -> quit. Game - is something, that is meant to be played by definition. I NEED TO ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME. All games, that has pretty visual design, but broken game mechanics, such as broken controls - have always been considered bad games.

A game isn't a bad just because you do badly at it.

MrMadguy, on 14 October 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

If ACH is too OP, then here is COM:

Stop being an idiot; everyone knows that single battles don't mean ****. Consistent good performance makes a player good, not a handful of good battles.

Here's my best battle in the Arctic Cheetah:



Is that representative of my actual performance in the ACH Prime? No, not one bit; here's my actual stats in it:


If you want to pretend they are 'overpowered cheats', then post your stats in them with a significant number of battles (at least 30 battles).

Edited by Zergling, 14 October 2016 - 11:52 PM.

[MrMadguy]

Zergling, on 14 October 2016 - 11:49 PM, said:

Stop. Making. Excuses.

If your PSR is dropping, it is because you are a beyond terrible player, literally one of the worst in the game.

A game isn't a bad just because you do badly at it.

No. I'm exactly the same, as 2-3 years ago. People don't change - game does.




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