232 replies to this topic

[Red Beard]

Mason Grimm, on 12 December 2011 - 08:50 AM, said:

Children! I have used the carrot, next comes the stick.... capiche?!?

Capiche...

[Major Crash]

Dev article quote:
"MechWarrior Online (MWO) might be free-to-play, but MWO Creative Director Bryan Ekman and Piranha President Russ Bullock insist this is going to be a proper MechWarrior game in the tradition of MechWarrior 2 through 4, not a successor to the Xbox action game Mech Assault. Ekman says joystick support is a strong probability, and both call this a Mech sim.
“I think it’s really the MechWarrior you know,” Bullock says. “It’s fully first-person. It’s not a new interpretation. We’re modernizing things a little bit, I think we’ll get to those questions, but certainly it’s MechWarrior.”

What ever the previous games were/had/did, just imagine whats comming around the mountain.
Go Devs, Go. It's a workday you know...

[Kristov Kerensky]

My numbers are easily backed up, MW2 series made Activision 70 million USD, and the MW2 GAME, not all the expansions, sold 7 million copies in 3 years. http://www.localditc...or/history.html, as someone ELSE already linked, is where I get the 70 million from, the 7 million copies of MW2 was from Activision, something they were extremely proud to make public in 1997, but can't find that info today, as the division at Activision that created/promoted the MW2 game has been defunct for over a decade now. Sales numbers used to be published, especially if they were good numbers. Sierra/Dynamix was extremely vocal about the fact that Tribes2 sold over 250k copies within 24 hours of release, but good luck finding the PR pieces they did back then TODAY.

And yes, I know the Activision MW2 7 million copies sold includes ALL copies of MW2 they sold..but it WAS MW2, not the addons GBL and Mercs. THOSE are included in the 70 million the series made for Activision. They didn't make 70m off the MW2 game, FASA wouldn't have pulled the license if they had Keep in mind, GBL and Mercs were done AFTER FASA pulled the license, sales of those 2 weren't as high as the original MW2 totals but they made MORE profit from them, all the initial dev work having been done and paid for by MW2. And Netmech..it was free, so it's not factored into the numbers.

MA..I know the game quite well, I got it for myself because it was advertised as THE BTech Mech game for the XBox. And it was just that, the ONLY BTech themed game for the XBox. Sadly, it wasn't actually MechWarrior, nor was it BTech, as I said, MS gutted the franchise and just used the skin to try and fool people. Nothing wrong with the GAME as a game, but it was NOT BTech or MechWarrior. It was a fun giant stompy robot game, purposely designed to be easy to master by the LCD. Sold 4 million copies total for MA/MA2.

Sorry Red Beard, but the best selling and most award winning of the entire BattleTech computer games to date has been MechWarrior2. Part of that is the massive campaign by Activision, which partnered with Thrustmaster to bundle the game with joysticks and with 3dFX to bundle the game with their Voodoo video cards. Joysticks and video cards bought JUST to play the game they came bundled with Crescent Hawks to MA2, none of them have topped the success of MW2, not even the MW2 expansion/addons did as well as MW2.

PGI wants a hit, they only have to look at the history of the BTech video games to see which did the best. It ain't rocket science or Lostech

[Red Beard]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 December 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:

Sold 4 million copies total for MA/MA2.

Said sales numbers did NOT include MA2. MA2 failed to break a million. With good reason. 4 million, MA stand alone.

Quote

Sorry Red Beard, but the best selling and most award winning of the entire BattleTech computer games to date has been MechWarrior2.

No apologies. I never disagreed. I would not be surprised if PGI has a similar marketing plan in store.

Quote

Part of that is the massive campaign by Activision, which partnered with Thrustmaster to bundle the game with joysticks and with 3dFX to bundle the game with their Voodoo video cards. Joysticks and video cards bought JUST to play the game they came bundled with Crescent Hawks to MA2, none of them have topped the success of MW2, not even the MW2 expansion/addons did as well as MW2.

Not digging on the game's quality here, but you kind of pointed out the very reason why MW2 sold so well. Not just because it was a decent game, but because there was an ingenius marketing campaign. MA didn't even have a commercial or a magazine ad. The game sold itself.

Comparing the two games is like comparing apples and oranges, and I doubt many people that loved MW2 would like MA, and vice versa. That said, I think your assertion that the more simulation like the game, the more it will sell is way off base.

Quote

PGI wants a hit, they only have to look at the history of the BTech video games to see which did the best. It ain't rocket science or Lostech

Not which sold the best, but which marketing scheme hit home. MW2 was a so-so game that was well advertised. My opinion.

Edited by Red Beard, 12 December 2011 - 01:25 PM.

[Basch]

Red Beard, on 12 December 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

This gentleman has NO clue what he is saying. MA was a much deeper game than what he is suggesting. I can only say that I doubt Basch has even played this game. I put in over 5 years of play on MA and can tell you that NOTHING he just posted is valid.

While MA WAS indeed an arcade game, there was a great deal of true depth to the gameplay. True, it was not a simulator, but it did offer action gamers a chance to play a game with the BT flavor. Some people think that MA was a heretical game for the liberties that Day 1 studios took in making new mechs and weapons. I would simply say that that is being close minded. But, we are all entitled to an opinion.

MechAssault was a top selling BT game, going platinum in less than a year, and selling over 4 million worldwide through the course of it's life. Few, if any MW games can claim sales stats like that. MA also enjoyed consistent DLC release, AT NO COST. That was a brilliant portion of Day 1 studios genius. They released new maos, new mechs and new game types, at no cost.

Some didn't like the top-down view point style of play, but I did. While I agree it would not work in a simulator game, it was awesome in MA.

If you don't know what you are saying, Basch, you should refrain from posting. You only served to display your ignorance.

Feeling the need to defend myself sir,

I did play and beat the campain, and played quite a bit online and as i said at the end of my post this was only my experence. I have beyond a shadow of a doubt that some people REALY enjoyed the game and every thing the dev's put in it. However, I did not.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Sorry Red, but MW2 wasn't a so-so game that was well advertised, it was an award winning game, a game that reviewers gave thumbs up and high scores to. The bundled deals were due TO the success MW2 had already achieved and weren't done when the game was first released, they came later on. The Voodoo chipset wasn't actually on the market when MW2 was released, that chipset came out in '96 and Activision actually released a special version of MW2 that was coded JUST for the Voodoo chipset, and bundled that same version with the Voodoo card that was released in late '96/early '97.. Thrustmaster released a new joystick around the same time as the Voodoo card by 3dFx, and it was bundled with MW2. These same pieces of hardware could also be found bundled with new computers, other software titles by OTHER publishers besides Activision and even bundled together.

MA had a lot of advertising actually, but it was one of many console games being released at the time, so you may have missed the PR campaign, I didn't, it's why I bought the game, the ONLY BTech related game on any of the best consoles at the time. It was a fun giant stompy robot game, but it was NOT BTech or MechWarrior, not even close, sorry.

MA actually had 3 releases, MA, MA2:Lonewolf and MA:Phantom War. MA and MA2 were on the XBox system while MAPW was on the DS. MA and MA2 had high ranking reviews due to their Multiplayer functions, but that was about it. MA single player was ok, nothing special. MA2 single player was actually dinged in reviews, it was sorely lacking. MAPW garnered low scores and bad reviews all around.

MA had 1 thing going for it..it was one of the XBox Live showcase games, that is the ONLY reason it did well, and that's a fact as the failures of MA2 and MAPW show all too clearly.

MW2 stood on it's own as a solid game with a great single player campaign..and that was it when it was released, it's multiplayer aspects were so bad that they didn't rate reviewing, because it didn't actually have them yet The original NetMech that MW2 shipped with was an early alpha version coded in '93 when the game was first being designed, with a MAX connection speed of 9600 baud hardcoded into it, 1v1 combat only, buggy as all hells and labelled as such. We actually had to hack the code in order to make the thing connect at 14.4, never got it to accept anything faster no matter what we did..and 28.8 was pretty much the standard when MW2 released. NetMech 95, released in '96, was when the multiplayer aspect of MW2 finally bloomed...long after the game had already garnered top reviews and rewards and gone platinum a few times over.

So..yeah Red..you can tell us what YOUR opinion of the various games are all you want, but I'll toss out the facts regardless of your opinion on them. MW2 was the best selling of all the BTech video games to date, from Crescent Hawks to MW4, MC and MA titles, MW2 out did them all..and it went platinum before it's multiiplayer aspect even WORKED

[PropWash]

Red and Kristov: I know, this really isn't a contribution to the discussion, but I wanted to just say that your 'debate' warms my heart.

If I could issue an award for one of the smarter and more thoughtful debates on here that is mostly fact based, this would be one of them

It should be mentioned that MA was an XBL title that was to help bring the whole 'Live' experience to the masses large in part due to the fact that much of the FASA Studios team had extensive experience in developing an 'interactive narrative' and 'social experience' through their work developing the various Tesla Cockpit products at Virtual World (FASA Interactive and Virtual World were sister companies under the Virtual World Entertainment Group umbrella before Microsoft bought it in 1999)

The producer of MechWarrior 4 was TJ 'PAINGOD' Wagner, who would later serve as producer for MA1 at MS, and soon after, would move directly to Day 1 Studios to produce MA2. TJ was also a key player in manufacturing of the Tesla Cockpits and other 'Mech products that never saw light of day.

And that is one to grow on.

[PropWash]

As for the more Sim, less Arcade debate, this is one that has been beat-to-death internally during the development of MANY various BattleTech / MechWarrior products.

Our solution was actually to have 'both'.

90+% of our revenue comes from casual 'walk-up' players who have little to no interest in playing in anything but the most simplistic modes who know nothing about MechWarrior, nor have any interest to, they just want to play something 'fun' in the cockpit that looks 'neat'. For them, we have 'Basic' piloting mode with quick action, and only 2 controls they NEED to use. Throttle and Stick. The armor values and whatnot are tweaked to assure quick action and success for even the newest pilots (Read: lots of explosions)

For those who want an advanced game, most of the 90+ control systems in a Tesla cockpit actually function in basic mode, but they dont provide as much value to the player unless they are playing in an advanced game where heat and advanced features are enabled. Those advanced players account for a smaller player population, but they are far more inclined to form a supporting community and become repeat players. Many play well over a thousand missions.

Edited by PropWash, 12 December 2011 - 03:55 PM.

[Seventy Times 7]

It may be true in BOXED games that most revenue comes from those walk-up simple players, but in a F2P model, it will be the people who stick with the game and become part of the dedicated community that put down the money to support the developer or add bells and whistles for themselves. It's best to pander to the people who will put money down rather than the casual gamers who will play for free for a few days and drop it.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Prop, I was extremely excited when I found out TJ was going to lead the MW4 team and that they were bringing the Tesla Pod engine and code with them to make MW4 with...imagine my disappointment in what they released.

Simple mode in a single player game, such as the previous MW titles and the Telsa Pods, that's fine, no issues with that, it allows people to learn on their own time at their own pace. I remember telling more then a few people on Kali that if they wanted to be good in a Mech, they needed to play the entire single player game through at least once, not just immediately jump into online combat. Repeat that same advice for MW3..not so much for MW4 though

MWO though..no single player options, no simple mode to learn with. Make the game a sim, make it complicated, and people will stick around even if they get frustrated because...it's F2P. I play a few MMOs right now that are F2P, some just recently went F2P, others have been that way since they released. And to date, I've yet to stick around in a F2P game that was simple, they just aren't fun enough to keep my attention..and judging from the numbers those same games have, the general gaming public feels the same way. DC Universe Online is a great example, it just recently went F2P after being out for 8 months as P2P. The initial response to it going F2P was so overwhelming that the servers were literally crashing constantly for the first week, with log in ques running into the 20k numbers. 2 weeks after the game went F2P, you didn't have to wait to log in to the game during prime time, IF you were still playing it. A very simple to learn and play game, extremely arcade like. 10 hours, you will have hit level cap if you play solo, less if you group. One week, maybe 2, and you will have mastered the entire game, every power type, every weapon type, and PvP. That's it..yer done...NOW what? Which is exactly why Sony made the game F2P when it was less then 9 months out of the gate, they could NOT keep a player base of sufficent size to keep the 2 servers they run(1 US, 1 EU) up and running, much less add more content. It's doing better now that it's F2P..at least..there's more players, but it's not really making enough to keep the game running for another year at this point.

As I said, just look at the best selling title of the entire franchise to date, see what they did right(sticking to TT for the most part, sim-like without being a TOTAL sim, easy enough to learn without needing a text book, complex enough that you don't master it within a few hours) and go with that as your base.

One way to do this..which I cringe to offer up but what the hell..

Start the new player off with a simplistic version of the game, stock only Mechs, nothing fancy, like the Tesla Pods offered, quick and easy combat with lots of blinking lights and things blowing up. As you advance in levels, the game gets more indepth and complicated, more sim-like, until they hit the level MW2 used, very sim-like and a pretty much straight from TT system. This will let the players work their way up to that level of complexity, so they can learn how it all works without a single player game to teach them. And they'll be pitted against other players who are at the same levels they are, so there's no newb facing a master situation..but that could always be an option one can select..after all..the best way to learn in most PvP based games is by facing the best players

[Kresten Youngblood]

I want the imersion on day 1 to be included in the game. I am still trying to figure out how to put this game in a pod and have my daughters practing shaking the car whenever i scream that i have taken a hit. Should keep me entertained and keep them out of trouble. With them being 11 and younger, might need to check with the local department of family services on this.

[Gorith]

Firstly the arcade twitchy Fp2 is already very bloated.Also the feel of the BT universe won't appeal to most of the casual players.

So if they make it very arcade actionish they will drive away the niche (most of the loyal BT/MW fans) who want it to be simulation then they have to hope they can compete in a market area already overrun with an IP thats already associated with very simulationist style gameplay. From even a financial standpoint it makes more sense to cater to a niche without much competition rather than to try to make it for everyone when theres already so many established product in that market. Especially why the IP history has been a certain way and is based on a wargame (most wargamers who are also PC gamers are not huge advocates of super action twitch games)

[IceNinja]

Dead Shot, on 11 December 2011 - 11:37 AM, said:

I hope the game has a good balance of simulation type game play. I want to balance heat, ammo, design my own mech, have lots of buttons to push, etc.

I am praying that this is what we get.A simulation type game,where mechs that can be fully customised.Where in the cockpit you are a mech pilot and not an arcade junkie.M$ killed the real Mech Warrior with MechA$$ault and I hope this rebirth of MechWarrior can remove that bad memory.

Respectfully
IceNinja

Edited by IceNinja, 12 December 2011 - 06:49 PM.

[PropWash]

Kristov,

Tesla 4 (the pinnacle of BattleTech advanced simulation) was going to be the base code for the FIT developed version of MechWarrior 3. During the dark days of VWEG, the project was cancelled and the development of Mech3 along with Crimson Skies (previously known as Corsairs on the Tesla cockpits) went to Zipper Interactive. While the Internally developed MUNGA development technology may have been used in the development of Mech4 (I doubt it), I dont believe any major components from Tesla made it into MW4.

Later, when MW4 Mercs was in development, VWE started working with FIT and a Korean 3rd party to port the MW4 engine to the Tesla environment (dubbed Tesla II with the upgrade to Windows from the Novell DOS based Tesla 1 platform). Mind you this was after MW4 Vengence and a few upgrade packs had been released.

So, MW4 came before BattleTech : Firestorm, but the development of Firestorm contributed to a few bug fixes for the retail release of Mercs.

We also implemented some fan made content into our official product technically making it canon. It started with some maps I believe by Ashley 'Suredude' Hall and later 'Mechs created by MekTek Studios.

MekTek continued to develop some Tesla 4 style super advanced simulation concepts for implementation into Firestorm. While we may never get many of those functions into Firestorm, I hope they will be implemented into MP4 and see the light of day. There are some fantastic ideas that I really hope people get to try out in the BattleTech universe. If were lucky, a few of these ideas might make it into MWO.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I worked for Zipper back then, tester, and I'm frankly surprised as hell that MW3 ever got released, much less got an expansion(quit while they were working on that) due to how the company totally ignored ALL input from the testers. We showed them time and time again how fubar their netcode was, but they kept telling us it was fine, we had no clue, our numbers and tests didn't mean anything..yeah..we all know the mess MW3 and it's netcode was

I don't believe any of the MUNGA actually made it into MW4, just looking at it who could believe that? MS had PLANNED on that though, it was part of their early PR campaign though, that it would be in the game and that they were going to bring the Tesla Pods to the PC..man were WE lied to

I've never seen the MekTek stuff myself, I've never been able to connect and d/l the software. I've not played anything BTech or MWarrior related on a computer since MW4, and I never bothered to get the expansions and mechpaks for that either. MW4 and MA just burned me too hard to spend any more on the MS buggered to hells and back versions of the BTech universe and made me pretty much avoid anything based on them.

As for the MWLL..well..never even heard of that until I joined this forum, and the vids I've seen so far don't impress me. Looks unfinished and arcade like, could just be the vids, I don't know, and since I don't own the Crysis game(great tech demo, too bad they didn't include a game), I'm not worried about it

MWO...I'm interested in, but I won't go crazy waiting on it either. So far, the game PGI is talking about sounds like what I'd enjoy playing..but..due to things I've seen on these boards, what people want and seem to think is 'best', I'm just not going to get all worked up about the game, there's way too much time between now and next summer, way too many people demanding another MA or MW4, and if the devs make the mistake of listening to the LCD..well...MS already burned me with MW4/MA, so even if it's F2P, I'll avoid MWO if that's the route it goes.

I miss MW2 game play, I felt like I was piloting a Mech, not a giant stompy robot, and I loved that I had to pay attention to half a dozen things at once during combat, NOT just aiming at something and pulling the trigger like I did in the Quake or Unreal games. Hells, even when I play FPSers now, I want more things to worry about then where I'm pointing my gun, which is why I like things like the old Tribes game(which is being remade!) and the Battlefield series(on PC, NOT that bs for the consoles!). I want a game that challenges me to do more then point and click..but that's just me I guess.

[Holmes]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 December 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

I worked for Zipper back then, tester, and I'm frankly surprised as hell that MW3 ever got released, much less got an expansion(quit while they were working on that) due to how the company totally ignored ALL input from the testers. We showed them time and time again how fubar their netcode was, but they kept telling us it was fine, we had no clue, our numbers and tests didn't mean anything..yeah..we all know the mess MW3 and it's netcode was

I don't believe any of the MUNGA actually made it into MW4, just looking at it who could believe that? MS had PLANNED on that though, it was part of their early PR campaign though, that it would be in the game and that they were going to bring the Tesla Pods to the PC..man were WE lied to

I've never seen the MekTek stuff myself, I've never been able to connect and d/l the software. I've not played anything BTech or MWarrior related on a computer since MW4, and I never bothered to get the expansions and mechpaks for that either. MW4 and MA just burned me too hard to spend any more on the MS buggered to hells and back versions of the BTech universe and made me pretty much avoid anything based on them.

As for the MWLL..well..never even heard of that until I joined this forum, and the vids I've seen so far don't impress me. Looks unfinished and arcade like, could just be the vids, I don't know, and since I don't own the Crysis game(great tech demo, too bad they didn't include a game), I'm not worried about it

MWO...I'm interested in, but I won't go crazy waiting on it either. So far, the game PGI is talking about sounds like what I'd enjoy playing..but..due to things I've seen on these boards, what people want and seem to think is 'best', I'm just not going to get all worked up about the game, there's way too much time between now and next summer, way too many people demanding another MA or MW4, and if the devs make the mistake of listening to the LCD..well...MS already burned me with MW4/MA, so even if it's F2P, I'll avoid MWO if that's the route it goes.

I miss MW2 game play, I felt like I was piloting a Mech, not a giant stompy robot, and I loved that I had to pay attention to half a dozen things at once during combat, NOT just aiming at something and pulling the trigger like I did in the Quake or Unreal games. Hells, even when I play FPSers now, I want more things to worry about then where I'm pointing my gun, which is why I like things like the old Tribes game(which is being remade!) and the Battlefield series(on PC, NOT that bs for the consoles!). I want a game that challenges me to do more then point and click..but that's just me I guess.

I seem to agree with most of what you wrote. Also, yes, MW:LL is very arcadey, I uninstalled it pretty quick once I found that out.

[Red Beard]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 December 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

if the devs make the mistake of listening to the LCD..well...MS already burned me with MW4/MA

What exactly do you mean by Lowest Common Denominator? Without any kind of explanation, it sounds like a sharp slap in the face to those that have differing opinions than yours.

You seem to present yourself as though you have high standards for your games, but those standards seem to be set by you insulting a large base of gamers. Some folks like arcadey action, some like simulation. You are not on some kind of pedestal for liking one or the other.

That said, an explanation may clear that up and prove my thoughts wrong.

Edited by Red Beard, 12 December 2011 - 09:40 PM.

[Holmes]

Basically, the average consumer will pick up a Call of Duty type game, and maybe even pay money for it... but it seems very hardcore geek-fanatic to want to spend 8 hours tweaking controls on an elaborate joystick. (Like me and a few people do.)

Mario Kart vs. GT5
Mario Kart = Pick up and play, drop 40 dollars for.
GT5 = Some people spend hundreds of hours adjusting gas/air combustion ratios while driving on their $500 racing wheel.
---
Star Fox vs Microsoft Flight Simulator X
Star Fox = Pick up and play, drop 40 dollars for.
Microsoft Flight Simulator X = Spend hundreds of hours practicing proper flight maneuvers, performing incredibly long flights across the Atlantic with real time scale and physics.

It's not necessarily an insult, just the bottom line for sales so that it is the most profitable, and incorporates (ideally) "everyone" not just the ... highest denominator of fans, or whatever you would call that in math.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Oy gods this again.

Well, there is no question and no debate that MA is a full on arcade game. Its an arcade treatment of a franchise that's had a ravenously devout *sim* following for years whove watched it wander further away from MW2, to 3, to 4 losing more and more of its sim soul. MA is a fun successful game and I hope they make another for its fans. But BT and MW are first, foremost, and ideally an immersive experience whether its a rpg, board game, or a sim balanced with action.

Edited by lakedaemon, 12 December 2011 - 10:13 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Red Beard, on 12 December 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

What exactly do you mean by Lowest Common Denominator? Without any kind of explanation, it sounds like a sharp slap in the face to those that have differing opinions than yours.

You seem to present yourself as though you have high standards for your games, but those standards seem to be set by you insulting a large base of gamers. Some folks like arcadey action, some like simulation. You are not on some kind of pedestal for liking one or the other.

That said, an explanation may clear that up and prove my thoughts wrong.

You do this a lot don't ya...oh well..I'll try and explain what LCD means then.

Lowest Common Denominator..designing a game for the masses, the idiots who have problems finding the power button on their computer, who often have hand-eye coordination issues and who find walking and chewing bubble gum to be a taxing, if not outright impossible, accomplishment. That, by the way, is how it was first described to me by someone who was working for MS at the time on the MW4 team. I found it a remarkably apt statement when MW4 was released.

Tribes, a great example of LCD in action. The first game was awesome, just totally mind blowing when it was released. And SO complex and deep! The learning curve in Tribes wasn't a curve at all, it was a freaking never ending upward slope. Tribes 2..LCD was introduced, against Dynamix's wishes I might add, and the game did well at release, 250k copies sold within 24 hours, a record at the time. Within a year, the game was pretty much dead, Dynamix didn't exist anymore, Sierra was running the game totally, and they LCD'd it death, literally. Sierra tried for a hat trick, Tribes:Vengeance! Sierra went extreme LCD with that one. Sold around 50k copies..the game was literally cancelled the day it was released, the patch they had FOR release day wasn't even released, it was that bad..all because of LCD. BTW, Dynamix did the first MW game, did ya know that?

The MW series, another great example and one that many here have direct experience with. The first 2 titles in the series, MW and MW2, anything but LCD, extremely complex and deep games, both sold well, with MW2 being the king of the franchise to date. MW3, the LCD creep starts showing. MW4, the LCD creep is now firmly entrenched and the franchise is pretty much finished..but..MS wouldn't just let it go! MA was released and the LCD of the series was complete. The differences between MW and MW2 are mainly tech based, the simple advancement of computer hardware made MW2 a better game, that's it. Between MW2 and MW3, DESPITE the hardware advances, MW3 is a lesser game, LCD showing it's head. MW4..well..it's not even really a Mech game now is it? Outside of the names and actual physical bodies of the Mechs, MW4 is NOT Btech or MechWarrior, plays nothing like anything by that name, it's giant stompy robots. MA..well..the LCD of the franchise is now complete, it's NOTHING like any of the previous titles, to the point of making MW4 look like a real BTech game, it's just giant stompy robots on the XBox LIVE! That, being a showcase game for Live, is the ONLY reason it sold as well as it did, fact, the game's reviews were NOT great except in one respect..it's multiplayer was awesome..for Live. The game has no resemblance to the previous titles in the franchise, it's extremely easy to play and master, and there's no complexity or depth to the game at all. And before you start Red, my SIX YEAR OLD SON mastered the single player game within a week(he was only allowed to play 30 minutes a day), and roflstomped people on Live constantly. And..I hate to say this, but the boy..he is NOT a video gamer by any means, he wasn't back then either to be honest, but he rocked MA on Live. He was, I really must add, a purely button smashing player btw...that's how complex and deep MA was, a 6 year old just smashing the controller buttons was better then most of the people he played on Live...*chuckle*..

THAT is LCD Red, the dumbing down of a game franchise to make it as simple and easy to play as possible, typically at the expense of what made the franchise a hit in the first place. And to date, it's never been successful as a design plan...never.