90 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 October 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

Good troll list, 10/10. Would read again.

The problem is that the thread creator is actually dead serious in all three cases that he listed.

I don't know whether to feel sorrow or pity. Perhaps both. May the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless his poor soul.

[Yellonet]

Tristan Winter, on 16 October 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

Defining OP as the best mechs of each class...

Well, I didn't.

FupDup, on 16 October 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

The problem is that the thread creator is actually dead serious in all three cases that he listed.

I don't know whether to feel sorrow or pity. Perhaps both. May the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless his poor soul.

I'm not sure how it's a problem as it's only my opinion. But oh well.

[FupDup]

Yellonet, on 16 October 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Well, I didn't.

I'm not sure how it's a problem as it's only my opinion. But oh well.

It being "an opinion" isn't a shield that makes it immune to criticism.

For example, a number of people on this forum have the opinion that the KDK-3 is a perfectly balanced mech with performance in-line with all of the other chassis in the game. I shouldn't have to explain this one...

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 16 October 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

The problem is that the thread creator is actually dead serious in all three cases that he listed.

I don't know whether to feel sorrow or pity. Perhaps both. May the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless his poor soul.

I know, I was being facetious.

More people need to be watching MWOWC so they understand exactly why certain 'Mechs are crap. Especially Lights. You can't know until you've seen how good these people are at shooting.

[Tristan Winter]

Yellonet, on 16 October 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

Overpowered means that it overall is better than it should be when compared to comparable mechs (class/weight)

Tristan Winter, on 16 October 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

Defining OP as the best mechs of each class

Yellonet, on 16 October 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Well, I didn't.

It was close enough that it doesn't really matter, Yello. You could replace "best mechs of each class" with your "better than it should be when compared to comparable mechs (class/weight)" and it wouldn't have any impact on the rest of my post.

The point is that "better than it should be when compared to comparable mechs" is myopic. The LCT isn't better than it should be compared to the Commando. The Commando is too weak compared to the Locust. And they're both too weak compared to the heavy mechs. The LCT is UNDERpowered, if anything. And most other light mechs doubly so.

[Requiemking]

Tristan Winter, on 16 October 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

It was close enough that it doesn't really matter, Yello. You could replace "best mechs of each class" with your "better than it should be when compared to comparable mechs (class/weight)" and it wouldn't have any impact on the rest of my post.

The point is that "better than it should be when compared to comparable mechs" is myopic. The LCT isn't better than it should be compared to the Commando. The Commando is too weak compared to the Locust. And they're both too weak compared to the heavy mechs. The LCT is UNDERpowered, if anything. And most other light mechs doubly so.

The exception being ACH, and even then, ACH isn't OP. It's just the best of the worst.

[Appogee]

Best Mechs by weight class:
ACH
HBK-IIC
TBR
Kodiak

Are these Mechs "OP"...? If you define "OP" in the way the original poster does, then Kodiak is, TBR isn't, HBK-IIC might be, and ACH almost is, were it not for the Locust.

[Appogee]

Requiemking, on 16 October 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

ACH isn't OP. It's just the best of the worst.

"Worst"...?! ACH is crazy good.

In my most recent match in it - yesterday - I did 5 kills, 3 of them solo/KMDs, and a total of 670 damage or thereabouts. That was an above average match. But it's usually good for 1 or 2 kills.

[Y E O N N E]

Appogee, on 16 October 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

"Worst"...?! ACH is crazy good.

In my most recent match in it - yesterday - I did 5 kills, 3 of them solo/KMDs, and a total of 670 damage or thereabouts. That was an above average match. But it's usually good for 1 or 2 kills.

I can say the same thing for my Mist Lynx B, though.

[Yellonet]

Tristan Winter, on 16 October 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

It was close enough that it doesn't really matter, Yello. You could replace "best mechs of each class" with your "better than it should be when compared to comparable mechs (class/weight)" and it wouldn't have any impact on the rest of my post.

It matters quite a lot actually. Best in class is not at all the same as being OP.
A class is a rather wide range of sizes and weights, a mech can be OP while still not being the best in its class. I don't consider the Warhammer to be the best heavy for instance.
For example if there was as 40-45 ton medium that was OP (because it was head and shoulders above similar mechs it might still not be the best in class because there are some good mechs in the 50-55 ton range that probably qualify better for the best medium.

FupDup, on 16 October 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

It being "an opinion" isn't a shield that makes it immune to criticism.

For example, a number of people on this forum have the opinion that the KDK-3 is a perfectly balanced mech with performance in-line with all of the other chassis in the game. I shouldn't have to explain this one...

Of course not, but what you wrote was that my opinion was a problem...

[Y E O N N E]

Yellonet, on 16 October 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

It matters quite a lot actually. Best in class is not at all the same as being OP.
A class is a rather wide range of sizes and weights, a mech can be OP while still not being the best in its class. I don't consider the Warhammer to be the best heavy for instance.
For example if there was as 40-45 ton medium that was OP (because it was head and shoulders above similar mechs it might still not be the best in class because there are some good mechs in the 50-55 ton range that probably qualify better for the best medium.

Of course not, but what you wrote was that my opinion was a problem...

If it's OP, but not best-in-class, that means you have some really screwy definitions of what OP means and strange ideas about what the class should be capable of.

[Bud Crue]

Yellonet, on 16 October 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

Overpowered means that it overall is better than it should be when compared to comparable mechs (class/weight)

That is is overall better than it should be when compared to comparable mechs.

Going in reverse:
As to comparable mechs I'm gonna assume this is an indication of weight class. If otherwise, I have no clue what this means...ballistic mechs compared? If the latter then every mech in the game is OP relative to the Panther 10P. But I will assume the former and go with weight class.

All assault mechs are better than they should be relative to the Victor.
All Heacy mechs are better than they should be relative to the Dragon
All Medium mechs are better than they should be relative to the Phoenix Hawk or maybe the Vindicator.
All lights are better than they should be relative to the Commando.

As far as mechs being OP. Only one I can think of is the Kodiak 3 and that is in relation to everything.

Sorry, Yellownet even after reading the whole thread I am just not sure what you are getting at.

[SilentScreamer]

Appogee, on 16 October 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

"Worst"...?! ACH is crazy good.

In my most recent match in it - yesterday - I did 5 kills, 3 of them solo/KMDs, and a total of 670 damage or thereabouts. That was an above average match. But it's usually good for 1 or 2 kills.

Yeonne Greene, on 16 October 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

I can say the same thing for my Mist Lynx B, though.

I'm sure I am not the only light mech fan that would love to see a video capture of that Mist Lynx in action. Most pilots throw the Lynx in the same tier as Commandos.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 16 October 2016 - 12:54 PM.

[Tsar Bomba]

Opie

[Appogee]

SilentScreamer, on 16 October 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

I'm sure I am not the only light mech fan that would love to see a video capture of that Mist Lynx in action. Most pilots throw the Lynx in the same tier as Commandos.

Lynx is ok. Just nowhere near as good as an ACH

[Y E O N N E]

SilentScreamer, on 16 October 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

I'm sure I am not the only light mech fan that would love to see a video capture of that Mist Lynx in action.

Unfortunately, I don't have any video capture set up; I'm running on fumes for hard disk space to the point where I am constantly juggling games. I have this 960 GB SSD that is currently useless due to Windows's inability to see the partition I deliberately left open (rest is Linux) for this specific use.

All I have at the moment is a pile of end-of-match screenshots.

[Yellonet]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 October 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

If it's OP, but not best-in-class, that means you have some really screwy definitions of what OP means and strange ideas about what the class should be capable of.

My definition is in the first post. Overpowered is NOT the same as being the best, it can be, but it certainly isn't all the time. Overpowered is a different thing than simply being the best, that it has its own word is kind of a clue.
To simplify it I would say that OP means better than it should be. In our case, OP mechs can completely obsolete other mechs as they do everything or nearly everything better, leaving no competitive room for different flavours of mechs.
In a class of mechs we have many different kind of mechs, geared towards different roles, an OP mech could be one that completely owns a certain role, but still overall isn't the best in the whole class.

[SilentScreamer]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 October 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

Unfortunately, I don't have any video capture set up; I'm running on fumes for hard disk space to the point where I am constantly juggling games. I have this 960 GB SSD that is currently useless due to Windows's inability to see the partition I deliberately left open (rest is Linux) for this specific use.

All I have at the moment is a pile of end-of-match screenshots.

I ran into the same problem. I've run Linux and Windows on most of my computers since the 90s. Took a 1,000 gigs and split it 300 windows, 300 linux and 400 spare. when I wanted to use the spare I tried to format it but neither Windows or Ubuntu were able to find the partition. What finally worked was booting linux off a CD ( I used a Puppy build http://puppylinux.or...20WaryPuppy.htm ) . Worked like a charm, have the extra 400 for storage now.

[Y E O N N E]

Yellonet, on 16 October 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

My definition is in the first post. Overpowered is NOT the same as being the best, it can be, but it certainly isn't all the time. Overpowered is a different thing than simply being the best, that it has its own word is kind of a clue.
To simplify it I would say that OP means better than it should be. In our case, OP mechs can completely obsolete other mechs as they do everything or nearly everything better, leaving no competitive room for different flavours of mechs.
In a class of mechs we have many different kind of mechs, geared towards different roles, an OP mech could be one that completely owns a certain role, but still overall isn't the best in the whole class.

And I covered that contingency with the "strange ideas about what a class should be capable of." Specifically, it's your "better than it should be" clause I take issue with, because you are defining that yourself. The game mechanics and business economics define what this should be, not you and not me.

A Locust should be as useful as a Kodiak. Should they do exactly the same thing? No. But since killing 'Mechs is the goal of every game mode, they should both have combat roles where they can perform. It should not just keel over and die upon sight of the Bear. Anything else upsets the economics; there is no reason to play a Locust if it just dies from a frightening look. You upset the Light players by giving them terrible options, and we take our business elsewhere. You also end up with long match times for heavier pilots because the lighter classes suck. Those people get upset...and also take their business elsewhere.

But what about that Heavy or Assault angry at getting harassed and killed by Lights? Sorry, can't fix lack of skill or an unwillingness to learn (but we can provide a better tutorial). You can go watch the MWOWC to see just why the Locust would be and is garbage.

[Bud Crue]

Yellonet, on 16 October 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

In a class of mechs we have many different kind of mechs, geared towards different roles, an OP mech could be one that completely owns a certain role, but still overall isn't the best in the whole class.

Now you're talkin...

The Dragon totally owns the the role of having arm mounted hard points on opposite side of a mech, wherein said mech is as wide as a barn. The Victor is similarly OP in that role in the Assault class.

The Phoenix Hawk absolutely owns the role of fast medium whose arms fall off when looked at funny. No other mech comes close in that department.

The Commando is the most dominate mech in the game for having absurdly out of proportion arm mounted "dynamic weapons" depictions. No other mech competes with the cartoonishly giant arm missile boxes or medium lasers of the Commandos arms.



-Sorry I just couldn't resist.