257 replies to this topic

[BLOOD WOLF]

guy0320, on 23 October 2016 - 01:01 AM, said:

You asked me to name who said that mixed builds were not a problem. Your dismal of my stating that you thought that mixed builds needed to be nerfed was a clear example of you stating that mixed builds were not a problem. If you cannot put two and two together to see that, then I can understand why Restosll blocked you.

See below for why your atlas's 87 point no penaly alpha isn't actually a problem.

Yea I am done with you. You obviously can't understand what I am typing. If you can not differentiate what I am saying to what you want me to say there is no point in going further. I never said that mixed builds needed a nerf. I dont even know what you mean. putting a penalty on mixed builds for high alpha's is not nerfing the weapons themselves. How do you not understand that. Your acting as if mixed builds is a weapon system in itself. Go spend tomorrow thinking about that concept and then come back and respond.

This is the problem with using words like "nerf" they do not do a good job to convey meaning.

ED does not nerf whatever the heck that means anything. It just applies a penalty for high damage outputs paired with high rates of fire.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 October 2016 - 01:09 AM.

[Yosharian]

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 October 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

Its not obvious to some people why ED is winning the tide of change. ED's objective was to plug the loopholes allowed by the previous heat scale system. For those still going around acting as if there are not plainly demonstrable reasons why ED is better than the older system is simple. It is empirically demonstrates that builds that were able to escape penalty can not do so under the new system. It is a umbrella system that catches all, not just same type weapon groups.

You have to demonstrate this is not the case by valid evidence. Asserting that it failed or its bad tells nobody anything about the system. They have been taking data from the test servers, that is all. The test servers now are probably not in use at the moment, because the ED system as it seems has already satisfied the conditions of testing. Unless their is a weapon combination or something that it does not catch, and once again by demonstration.

I remember watching a video by somebody who ranted against the ED system and not once did they demonstrate the validity of their claims. Stop complaining that the PTS pop is not their and get a group going. Nobody goes in their without a group anymore, especially after a long period of it being out.

Demonstrate you claims when it comes to empirical knowledge that can be tested. Otherwise there is no good reason for anyone to take what you say as facts without Bias.

The problem I have with ED is that it's a system that doesn't fit the game it's supposed to be implemented in.

I've been saying this for months now.

Here is concrete proof that ED doesn't work:

This build:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c5682371d33d7e0
has an 87 point split alpha currently. I can fire 6xSPL twice, popping the ERPPC whenever, and get no heat penalty. This requires some facetime in order to wait 0.5sec between SPL volleys. The vast majority of this damage occurs at about 180m range.

This build:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8c7e13612f4eb0a
has a 54 point alpha at about 480m range, nearly three times more.

The SPL build is much more dangerous at close range, but it requires the player to close to 180m which means being highly exposed to return fire, being outflanked or straight up shot in the back armour, exposed to LRM fire, etc.

The laser vomit build, by comparison, requires almost no exposure to enemy fire whatsoever. You can deal your 54 points and get back into cover easily because of the range. You can deal damage from great distances.

The SPL build will get absolutely destroyed by ED - it's unusable. There simply isn't enough power to fire the weapons, even when chain-firing.

The laser vomit build simply has to wait for a second to fire in two volleys in order to get zero heat penalty, and it can always just alpha anyway and then spend a bit more time cooling down.

Guess which build ED was supposed to be punishing?

ED is not fit for purpose. End of discussion.

I'm sure this post will get discussed and not just buried in favour attacking some other poster who just posts bile and hatred.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Yosharian, on 23 October 2016 - 01:13 AM, said:

The problem I have with ED is that it's a system that doesn't fit the game it's supposed to be implemented in.

I've been saying this for months now.

Here is concrete proof that ED doesn't work:

This build:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c5682371d33d7e0
has an 87 point split alpha currently. I can fire 6xSPL twice, popping the ERPPC whenever, and get no heat penalty. This requires some facetime in order to wait 0.5sec between SPL volleys. The vast majority of this damage occurs at about 180m range.

This build:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8c7e13612f4eb0a
has a 54 point alpha at about 480m range, nearly three times more.

The SPL build is much more dangerous at close range, but it requires the player to close to 180m which means being highly exposed to return fire, being outflanked or straight up shot in the back armour, exposed to LRM fire, etc.

The laser vomit build, by comparison, requires almost no exposure to enemy fire whatsoever. You can deal your 54 points and get back into cover easily because of the range. You can deal damage from great distances.

The SPL build will get absolutely destroyed by ED - it's unusable. There simply isn't enough power to fire the weapons, even when chain-firing.

The laser vomit build simply has to wait for a second to fire in two volleys in order to get zero heat penalty, and it can always just alpha anyway and then spend a bit more time cooling down.

Guess which build ED was supposed to be punishing?

ED is not fit for purpose. End of discussion.

I'm sure this post will get discussed and not just buried in favour attacking some other poster who just posts bile and hatred.

got a video?

I don't have the PTS video installed so I cant replicate and test your build

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 October 2016 - 01:15 AM.

[guy0320]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 01:06 AM, said:

Yea I am done with you. You obviously can't understand what I am typing. If you can not differentiate what I am saying to what you want me to say there is no point in going further. I never said that mixed builds needed a nerf. I dont even know what you mean. putting a penalty on mixed builds for high alpha's is not nerfing the weapons themselves. How do you not understand that. Your acting as if mixed builds is a weapon system in itself. Go spend tomorrow thinking about that concept and then come back and respond.

This is the problem with using words like "nerf" they do not do a good job to convey meaning.

ED does not nerf whatever the heck that means anything. It just applies a penalty for high damage outputs paired with high rates of fire.

If you are penalizing something, you are nerfing it. The fact that you still don't understand this after nearly 5,000 forum posts says a lot about your reading comprehension.

[BLOOD WOLF]

For those that are smart enough. A penalty is not the same thing as a nerf(reduction. A reduction is an attempt to downgrade a weapon or mech. A penalty is akin to a punishment. There is a difference. I trust that those who can tell the difference get what i am saying.

so there is a difference to saying a LL damage is going from 10 to 9 with regular hear

there is a difference when saying that a LL is staying at 10 but each time it burns it gets aditional heat.

2 different concepts.

nobody really cares to be honest. Demonstrate this via a video that sets up a control and then maybe you will be on to something.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 October 2016 - 01:21 AM.

[Deathlike]

BLOOD WOLF, how about you try to defend or oppose what happened with the UAC jam quirk "adjustments"?

You barely speak about balance, let alone comprehend it.

Back in the day, you had problems understanding what Ferro Fibrous did for armor, as you were confused solely by semantics.

Frankly, you couldn't explain balance if you were just an alt account of our balance overlord. I challenge you to try.

If you totally ignore my points, like the rest of us, we will continue to not take your posts seriously. We ForumWarriors might not be the majority, but we certainly know dumb as we see it.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 October 2016 - 01:22 AM.

[guy0320]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

For those that are smart enough. A penalty is not the same thing as a nerf(reduction. A reduction is an attempt to downgrade a weapon or mech. A penalty is akin to a punishment. There is a difference. I trust that those who can tell the difference get what i am saying.

so there is a difference to saying a LL damage is going from 10 to 9 with regular hear

there is a difference when saying that a LL is staying at 10 but each time it burns it gets aditional heat.

2 different concepts.

I think that 99% percent of people would agree that both constitute a reduction in effectiveness of the weapon in relation to others, and that both, therefore, constitute a nerf.

[Snowbluff]

RestosIII, on 23 October 2016 - 12:34 AM, said:

Except the KDK-3 Dakka is still perfectly fine with ED. Plus going over the ED limit with Guass is laughable. So it doesn't even fix that "problem".

I don't see how roughly 28 heat versus 58 heat isn't a hefty change.

guy0320, on 23 October 2016 - 01:15 AM, said:

If you are penalizing something, you are nerfing it. The fact that you still don't understand this after nearly 5,000 forum posts says a lot about your reading comprehension.

I actually don't see the complaint. TTK is being raised universally, and the SPL build you showed would be penalized under ghost heat and PD either way. Even then, PD allows for an avenue for adjusting weapons other than changing their damage by altering their draw. SPLs might see a change in their draw if the penalty is too high for the range.

Edited by Snowbluff, 23 October 2016 - 01:31 AM.

[Yosharian]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 01:14 AM, said:

got a video?

I don't have the PTS video installed so I cant replicate and test your build

I don't need a video, I can demonstrate mathematically:

My EXE build puts out 72 damage every 3 seconds with SPLs, plus 15 damage every 4 seconds with the ERPPC, dividing to find the damage per second thats 24 DPS from the SPLs and 3.75 DPS from the ERPPC, which is 27.75 damage per second.

ED refills at 20 points per second so even if I was to chain-fire all weapons, evenly spread, there aren't enough energy points per second to allow me to fire my weapons without incurring ghost heat, and this is an extremely hot mech and very difficult to pilot already as it is.

The initial draw reserve of 30 allows me to fire 5 SPLs ghost heat-free initially, but after that I'm forced to chain small numbers of SPLs and very rapidly (within a couple of seconds) I won't be able to use more than 2/3 of my arsenal without penalty.

This is even while firing all weapons on chain, so 100% face-time, which currently my mech does not have to do; although there is significant face-time I do still get the change to twist some damage while brawling. And even with 100% face-time I still wouldn't be able to fire all weapons properly under ED. This build would be dead.

I do fairly well with this build even though I'm not the best brawler, because it plays to the EXE's strengths, using maneuverability and armor advantage to destroy lighter mechs in close combat while trying to avoid trading at range, although I do have the ERPPC so I'm not completely useless at range.

The laser vomit build, by comparison, is really easy to play and I've completely destroyed teams with it. My stats from when I used this build to powerlevel my other EXE variants are some of the strongest stats I have on my list (428 average damage, 2.8 K/D ratio, 2.0 W/L ratio). Vomit is still incredibly strong, easy to play and very risk-free.

Edited by Yosharian, 23 October 2016 - 01:33 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Yosharian, on 23 October 2016 - 01:26 AM, said:

I don't need a video, I can demonstrate mathematically:

My EXE build puts out 72 damage every 3 seconds with SPLs, plus 15 damage every 4 seconds with the ERPPC, dividing to find the damage per second thats 24 DPS from the SPLs and 3.75 DPS from the ERPPC, which is 27.75 damage per second.

ED refills at 20 points per second so even if I was to chain-fire all weapons, evenly spread, there aren't enough energy points per second to allow me to fire my weapons without incurring ghost heat, and this is an extremely hot mech and very difficult to pilot already as it is.

This is even while firing all weapons on chain, so 100% face-time, which currently my mech does not have to do; although there is significant face-time I do still get the change to twist some damage while brawling. And even with 100% face-time I still wouldn't be able to fire all weapons properly under ED. This build would be dead.

well I don't know about that. like I said I dont have the PTS to see how this build would play out. I don't agree that the build would be dead, then again I dont know.

Deathlike, on 23 October 2016 - 01:22 AM, said:

BLOOD WOLF, how about you try to defend or oppose what happened with the UAC jam quirk "adjustments"?

You barely speak about balance, let alone comprehend it.

Back in the day, you had problems understanding what Ferro Fibrous did for armor, as you were confused solely by semantics.

Frankly, you couldn't explain balance if you were just an alt account of our balance overlord. I challenge you to try.

If you totally ignore my points, like the rest of us, we will continue to not take your posts seriously. We ForumWarriors might not be the majority, but we certainly know dumb as we see it.

I already addressed that a long time ago. You and others were jumping the gun and missed the whole point of my post. Even other people in the thread got what I was saying, you are under the illusion that everyone shares your point of view......how odd

"I couldn't explain balance" This guy

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 October 2016 - 01:36 AM.

[Deathlike]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 01:33 AM, said:

I already addressed that a long time ago. You and others were jumping the gun and missed the whole point of my post.

I explained the difference. You didn't. It's as simple as that.

Quote

"I couldn't explain balance" This guy

Hey, I offered you the opportunity to explain the last UAC changes... and you haven't yet. It's proof enough anyways.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Deathlike, on 23 October 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

I explained the difference. You didn't. It's as simple as that.



Hey, I offered you the opportunity to explain the last UAC changes... and you haven't yet. It's proof enough anyways.

you are asserting that. I will assert that I already knew the difference.

The last UAC changes in the PTS?

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 October 2016 - 01:40 AM.

[Deathlike]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 01:38 AM, said:

you are asserting that. I will assert that I already knew the difference.

You explained it so poorly that it's not hard to be corrected by it.

Quote

The last UAC changes in the PTS?

If you paid any attention to balance (or the obvious vocal threads about it), I'm talking about the October 2016 patch changes in the main game.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 October 2016 - 01:40 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Deathlike, on 23 October 2016 - 01:39 AM, said:

You explained it so poorly that it's not hard to be corrected by it.



If you paid any attention to balance (or the obvious vocal threads about it), I'm talking about the October 2016 patch changes in the main game.

give me a link and maybe Ill give you the same answer.

I didn't pay attention to the last patches on weapon to be honest. I don't really want to or see why that is relevant to anything,especially the thread.

After looking at them I actually do not know why those mechs specifically. Maybe Ill ask around.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 October 2016 - 01:45 AM.

[RestosIII]

Snowbluff, on 23 October 2016 - 01:24 AM, said:

I don't see how roughly 28 heat versus 58 heat isn't a hefty change.

I actually don't see the complaint. TTK is being raised universally, and the SPL build you showed would be penalized under ghost heat and PD either way. Even then, PD allows for an avenue for adjusting weapons other than changing their damage by altering their draw. SPLs might see a change in their draw if the penalty is too high for the range.

Want to respond, but I just realized it's 5:40 AM and I haven't gotten any sleep. Already having trouble posting this and keeping it coherent. Will get back to this when I wake up.

[Hunka Junk]

Cementi, on 22 October 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

Sorry a poll about ED is premature as we do not know the final incarnation of it.

All values on TS are subject to change as its a test server. Untill they put up a build and say "Ok guys this is the values we are planning on releasing to live. Let us know what you think." There is no point in making a poll.

There is also the sad fact that the majority of the people that would vote in said poll would be uneducated on the topic and would likely vote one way or another on personal bias.

All of the above applies to a thread announcing that ED is winning.

My personal take: ED has already won because it's another crappy "rework" that is clearly going to be drawn out for as long as possible and then presented as new content.

It's going to replace one despised game mechanic with another despised game mechanic.

The good thing about it all is that BLOOOOOOOD WOOOOOLF is going to be taking a vow of silence for a month when he loses the wager he made with me about the popularity of this whole fiasco.

Edited by Hunka Junk, 23 October 2016 - 01:44 AM.

[Deathlike]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 01:41 AM, said:

give me a link and maybe Ill give you the same answer.

I didn't pay attention to the last patches on weapon to be honest. I don't really want to or see why that is relevant to anything,especially the thread

I'm going to tell you this... if you cannot be hassled to find things that are easily located, you are a terrible researcher.

From this day forth... if you ask about stuff that you cannot be hassled to look for/research yourself, we will continue to ignore your points. You keep asking people for the "source" and then you blatantly ignore their sources. At this point, you don't get to have the benefit of the doubt unless YOU DO SOME WORK and not just leave it to other people do that work for you.

http://mwomercs.com/...85-18-oct-2016/

[BLOOD WOLF]

Deathlike, on 23 October 2016 - 01:44 AM, said:

I'm going to tell you this... if you cannot be hassled to find things that are easily located, you are a terrible researcher.

From this day forth... if you ask about stuff that you cannot be hassled to look for/research yourself, we will continue to ignore your points. You keep asking people for the "source" and then you blatantly ignore their sources. At this point, you don't get to have the benefit of the doubt unless YOU DO SOME WORK and not just leave it to other people do that work for you.

http://mwomercs.com/...85-18-oct-2016/

genius, go read my re-edited post. Also you are the one that brought up the resent UAC changes. I don't even care about the recent changes on the mechs.

So basically you are saying I can not ask for sources because I didn't know about the recent changes to these UACs on certain mechs. Too which had nothing to do with what I was talking about and it was an irrelevant topic you brought up?

I was also talking about the Link to the TOPIC i made, genius

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 October 2016 - 01:55 AM.

[BluefireMW]

Davers, on 22 October 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

PGI's dilemma is they want to make heat important, like it is in 3025. Except when DHS became standard heat wasn't really an issue anymore, except for the "overgunned" mechs like the Nova. So even with the tripled fire rates and reduced cooling they still need to create additional mechanics.

it's simple because of Heat is a 0 and 1 part in here. It should have side effects in between, then heat would be different.

Edited by BluefireMW, 23 October 2016 - 01:52 AM.

[Hunka Junk]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 01:46 AM, said:

genius, go read my re-edited post. Also you are the one that brought up the resent UAC changes. I don't even care about the recent changes on the mechs.

So basically you are saying I can not ask for sources because I didn't know about the recent changes to these UACs on certain mechs. Too which had nothing to do with what I was talking about and it was an irellevent topic you brought up?

I think the greater point is that the side you think you're helping would be better off without your "help".