338 replies to this topic

[SmithMPBT]

People in QP like to brawl, turning every corner and finding a mech that destroys u by tapping the mouse 3 times quickly isn't fun. You don't see loadouts like EMP/lords/SJR generally in QP because it requires coordination, which most players don't want to bother with in QP. The 'git gud" argument is only "gud" for making people move to other games. Re-balance the supermech and gameplay will be alot less ****** for people not in Kodiak-3s.

[El Bandito]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 28 October 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

cuz the way i see it heavies have been OP for a very long time. i mean i fear none in my timbers, not lights, not mediums and most definitely not the vast majority of assaults.

really stop and think about it, what other assaults are even real assault mechs? a couple of meta builds sure but no assault has any real edge over heavies, and all assaults are the victims of rabid locust packs.

not saying the kodiak 3 is totally fine, just trying to point out that we have never had a "real" assault before and now that we have one, you know a mech so terrifying that you HAVE to fight it strategically, you HAVE to out flank it, poke it in the back, you simply CANNOT face tank it and expect to win.

What you might not realize is that due to the nature of MWO as MP only arena game, a mech shouldn't be leagues above its peers.

My BLR-2C and Mauler-MX90 both eat Heavies as breakfast when they meet. Those mechs can't be facetanked too. But KDK-3 outclassed them by significant margin when I played it.

Col Jaime Wolf, on 28 October 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

i don't want to say it but alot of players need some serious "git gud", kodiaks are powerful yes but they are far from unbeatable. and like lrm boats their damage is inflated because of the nature of UAC's, yes they hurt, and yes they will kill you quick, but if your smart and stop acting like a deer that just got shined maybe you would realize like LRMS, kodiaks with UACs are only really good against bad players.

that's why EMP/lords/SJR use the gauss/erppc bear in competitive play because they realize this too.

Comp play is completely different than solo-q, due to the amount of coordination it requires. The dakka build works extremely effective in solo-q, and not just against bad players. I have killed a lot of better-than-average players (some are forum warriors who read this thread already) in my KDK-3. The mech is being more of a detriment than boon for those who play solo-q, due to its obvious imbalance. It is a mech that needs nerfs.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 October 2016 - 10:20 AM.

[Zergling]

Dee Eight, on 28 October 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

I have my own info that sharing of violates the CoC for the forum. But publically PGI has announced they won't reveal banned accounts again (the last time they did so was more than a year ago).

In other words, you don't want to start falsely accusing people of cheating because you'll get banned for it.

Dee Eight, on 28 October 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

As well it should as it has thanks to endo steel, FF, and more engine cap, the ability to carry as much tonnage of weapons/armor as a DWF, but do so with much more agility and as to "high" ballistics for the KDK3... the TOP most mounts will clear over a DWF, but the lower mounts will not (fortunately for the phraken pattern DWF who stepped in front of my new KDK-3 an hour ago I was only shooting the UAC/5s at the time (I bought a second one to configure with 2xUAC/5,2xUAC/10,4xSPL while my original is currently configured 4xLB-10X,4xERSL). But even the arm energy hardpoints or the torso missile hardpoints of other variants are higher than on most any other assault.

Well ****, you admitted that even without the supposed cheating in the event, it would still produce higher scores than the Dire Wolf!

Well ****, you just admitted the KDK-3 is overpowered!

Dee Eight, on 28 October 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

Epic Assaults, Kodiak leaderboard...8th to 75th is a 1000 point spread. 7th is more than 400 higher and 1st is 800 higher still than 7th. That you fail to understand the why/who those accounts are, is not my fault.

Battlemaster 8th to 75th is a 1246 point difference
Executioner 8th to 75th is a 1191 point difference
Banshee 8th to 75th is a 1176 point difference
Highlander 8th to 75th is a 1112 point difference
Gargoyle 8th to 75th is a 1102 point difference
Highlander IIC 8th to 75th is a 1052 point difference
Warhawk 8th to 75th is a 1003 point difference
Kodiak 8th to 75th is a 1001 point difference

The Kodiak's score distribution in that event is nothing unusual, there is no evidence of cheating skewing the results.

Dee Eight, on 28 October 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

S3B is the 3rd alt account to a T1 player. The 2nd Alt account he was using during the original Kodiak launch event was VictoriaSeymore. I forget the name of the original account. There's probably a 4th alternate by now. As S3B he posted a screen grab of a match end...

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5339686

Alt accounts are allowed, and alt accounts are not evidence of cheating.

Dee Eight, on 28 October 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

An 8:21 domination game and pulled off 2,277 damage... how exactly does one achieve that in a KDK-3 (that'll take at least 12 tons of ammo if its a pure ballistic build with UAC/10s), in a single QP game, without enemies just STANDING still letting their components be stripped off by playing on their own? Answer? It cannot be done. But having a sync group drop leg opponents for you, and then let you farm the kills... that's quite doable.

Answer: you can't do it, so you think it is impossible.

Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it is impossible for other players.

Dee Eight, on 28 October 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

Yes by being the alt account of another player to farm potatoes.

Here, I posted how much potato farming he did so quickly in that thread in this message...

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5342032

Also read the LAST post in the thread (which is locked now btw). Then ask yourself again why certain accounts haven't been used for awhile.

S3B was active in September, so he does not appear to have been banned for an event that ended in August.

But you seem to think the Mods are on your side, allowing you to violate the CoC: https://mwomercs.com/conduct

Quote

• Accusing other players of using hacks, scripts, or cheats.
  
• Naming and shaming the alleged misconduct of another individual, including but not limited to accusations of cheating or exploiting.

Letsee what the mods think of that, shall we?



I also suggest you look at this thread, and the last post by a different moderator: http://mwomercs.com/...t/page__st__120

Quote

This thread is hereby closed, as it has been amply explained why
exploits, cheats, and/or hacks are not necessary for a high score.

But hey, maybe you know the cheat claims are a load of bull, and you are just trying to get this thread locked for discussion of cheating to silence the discussion.

Edited by Zergling, 28 October 2016 - 11:25 AM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

El Bandito, on 28 October 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

What you might not realize is that due to the nature of MWO as MP only arena game, a mech shouldn't be leagues above its peers.

My BLR-2C and Mauler-MX90 both eat Heavies as breakfast when they meet. Those mechs can't be facetanked too. But KDK-3 outclassed them by significant margin when I played it.

Comp play is completely different than solo-q, due to the amount of coordination it requires. The dakka build works extremely effective in solo-q, and not just against bad players. I have killed a lot of better-than-average players (some are forum warriors who read this thread already) in my KDK-3. The mech is being more of a detriment than boon for those who play solo-q, due to its obvious imbalance. It is a mech that needs nerfs.

see i dont know if i can deal with this kind of hyperbole, we got half the pro-nerf opinions here saying that we need to balance based on the performance of the very best players and we got another half saying we need to balance around the 90%. smh

i agree that the Kodiak 3 is a little OP and could use some toning down but really what can you do besides a 10+ lines of red text?

reducing its torso turn? sure might help a bit but the forum warriors will never be happy until it has nothing less then outright red text for everything from internal structure, to agility and weapon velocities.

yes you el bandito do well in yours, yes ive done exceedingly well in mine compared to other assaults and consider it my top assault literally a head and shoulders above the rest. but at the same time i keep coming back to "this is how an assault mech should feel" and wondering why the other 26 assault mechs in my stable are absolute garbage in comparison.

I keep coming back to the fact that I'm nigh invulnerable in many heavies but still have to play very carefully in my kodiaks lest I become the lunch of a light pack.

your right that it is going to eventually get nerfed and its probably going to result in all 5 of my kodiaks sitting in the corner stripped, just like my victors. whether that's the intention or not we all know how this eventually ends.

[Scout Derek]

maybe because there's no other counter to it that Maybe we should make one?

Just something to toss into the ring here again.


Maybe it might be actually time to add some IS UAC 10s and 20s now, or perhaps some Mrms.

Again, something to consider as seeing that both sides and even the people on the same side can't agree.

[Zergling]

Oh yeah, here's the averages for the Epic Assault leaderboard with the top 25 in each mech removed, only 26-75 scores.

Kodiak = 3442
Dire Wolf = 3029
Mauler = 2928
Battlemaster = 2823
Awesome = 2783
King Crab = 2761
Warhawk = 2686
Atlas = 2618
Stalker = 2600
Highlander IIC = 2558
Banshee = 2554
Executioner = 2445
Gargoyle = 2411
Zeus = 2304
Highlander = 2168
Victor = 2082

Gee, what a surprise; the Kodiak is still on top by more than 10% above the next highest mech, the Dire Wolf.

And even with the top 25 scores removed, the Kodiak still beats the Dire Wolf without the top 25 scores removed (3442 vs 3229).

So even if the top 25 scores in Kodiak leaderboard for the Epic Assault event were somehow filled with cheaters and other mechs weren't (when the score distribution shows this wasn't the case), the Kodiak still beat the Dire Wolf, Battlemaster, Mauler and King Crab by a considerable amount.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 28 October 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

What you might not realize is that due to the nature of MWO as MP only arena game, a mech shouldn't be leagues above its peers.

Which is why my desired solution is to take MWO away from being just an arena game. Failing that, I'd rather it just goes down in flames, seriously.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Zergling, on 28 October 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

Oh yeah, here's the averages for the Epic Assault leaderboard with the top 25 in each mech removed, only 26-75 scores.

Kodiak = 3442
Dire Wolf = 3029
Mauler = 2928
Battlemaster = 2823
Awesome = 2783
King Crab = 2761
Warhawk = 2686
Atlas = 2618
Stalker = 2600
Highlander IIC = 2558
Banshee = 2554
Executioner = 2445
Gargoyle = 2411
Zeus = 2304
Highlander = 2168
Victor = 2082

Gee, what a surprise; the Kodiak is still on top by more than 10% above the next highest mech, the Dire Wolf.

And even with the top 25 scores removed, the Kodiak still beats the Dire Wolf without the top 25 scores removed (3442 vs 3229).

So even if the top 25 scores in Kodiak leaderboard for the Epic Assault event were somehow filled with cheaters and other mechs weren't (when the score distribution shows this wasn't the case), the Kodiak still beat the Dire Wolf, Battlemaster, Mauler and King Crab by a considerable amount.

everyone knows the leader boards are gamed by units to put and keep players at the top, maybe not every single leader board but it has already been openly exposed before and thus is not a good indicator of a mechs relative performance.

competitive games are, so why don't you start getting the screenshots from MRBC and the world tourney with the top teams and using that. tyty. also stop making WOT for the love of battletech.

[Deathlike]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 28 October 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

everyone knows the leader boards are gamed by units to put and keep players at the top, maybe not every single leader board but it has already been openly exposed before and thus is not a good indicator of a mechs relative performance.

competitive games are, so why don't you start getting the screenshots from MRBC and the world tourney with the top teams and using that. tyty. also stop making WOT for the love of battletech.

Pretty sure that all the top tier teams are running dual Kodiak-3s whenever possible.

I'm not sure what you're expecting?

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Deathlike, on 28 October 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Pretty sure that all the top tier teams are running dual Kodiak-3s whenever possible.

I'm not sure what you're expecting?

yes and most of the time they are packing dual gauss/erppc but lets not be bothered by details shall we?

[Zergling]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 28 October 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

everyone knows the leader boards are gamed by units to put and keep players at the top, maybe not every single leader board but it has already been openly exposed before and thus is not a good indicator of a mechs relative performance.

competitive games are, so why don't you start getting the screenshots from MRBC and the world tourney with the top teams and using that. tyty. also stop making WOT for the love of battletech.

There is no evidence that the Kodiak was gamed more than other mechs, and even when only lower scores are considered to remove the possibility of gamed scores, the Kodiak is still beating the Dire Wolf by over 10% average score.
Hell, the lowest score of the Kodiak in that event was 3226, only 3 points less than the average for the Dire Wolf!

And FYI, the KDK-3 is the exclusive assault in competitive games, which is a rather strong indication of just how strong it is.

Edited by Zergling, 28 October 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 28 October 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Comp play is completely different than solo-q, due to the amount of coordination it requires.

(not specifically directed at you, unless of course you also suffer from the same ailment )

People should really make up their freaking minds on whether balance should be based on the top, bottom, or somewhere in between. <shrugs>

Edited by Mystere, 28 October 2016 - 12:13 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 28 October 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

everyone knows the leader boards are gamed by units to put and keep players at the top, maybe not every single leader board but it has already been openly exposed before and thus is not a good indicator of a mechs relative performance.

Well I know it and you know it and others know it, but there will always be some who will deny it even if its smacking them in the face with a bazooka.

[Zergling]

Dee Eight, on 28 October 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

Well I know it and you know it and others know it, but there will always be some who will deny it even if its smacking them in the face with a bazooka.

Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot.

'cause ya know, I've only completely destroyed your claim that the Kodiak was being cheated more than other mechs, and then proven it completely irrelevant because even when top scores are disregarded, the Kodiak is still overperforming.

If you can't admit you're wrong in the face of complete argumentative defeat like that, you were probably a brick wall in another life.

But hey, go ahead and demonstrate your poor qualities again by sticking your head in the sand and continuing to insist you are correct in the face of overwhelming evidence.
If you can't admit you're wrong, then just admit maths is too hard for you and that you don't understand the topic.

Edited by Zergling, 28 October 2016 - 12:17 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 28 October 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

yes and most of the time they are packing dual gauss/erppc but lets not be bothered by details shall we?

Don't forget the dual MGs !!! They make all the difference !

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Zergling, on 28 October 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

You must be pretty ignorant of the topic at hand if you think that somehow changes things.

The KDK-3 with dakka build isn't actually the best; in the hands of a skilled player, dual gauss/ER PPC is preferred. In the pub queues, the dakka build does well because of the different meta, and it has a much lower skill requirement.

In other words, the KDK-3 is overpowered at all skill levels; lower skill players use the dakka build, while higher skill players use the dual gauss/ER PPC build.

The dual gauss/ER PPC build is why simply removing one ballistic hardpoint from each side torso won't be an adequete nerf. Yes it would kill the dakka build, but it won't fix the dominance of the KDK-3 at high level and competitive play.
As such, suggestions for KDK-3 nerfs include such things as torso twist arc restrictions.

"Hurr durr, look at me mom, I think I'm saying something witty but it is actually really stupid!"

if you cant keep a civil tone then i wont respond to anything you say. straight up personal attacks are against the COC, so either put up a good argument or shut up.

[Zergling]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 28 October 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

if you cant keep a civil tone then i wont respond to anything you say. straight up personal attacks are against the COC, so either put up a good argument or shut up.

I've already made a good argument. If you can't have basic knowledge of the topic at hand before chipping in with pointless posts, I don't see why I should be polite.

And fyi, nothing I said was a 'personal attack'; it is not a personal attack to call out ignorance.

But please, threaten me with the moderators like they are some weapon you wield, moderators just love being used like that.

Edited by Zergling, 28 October 2016 - 12:35 PM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Zergling, on 28 October 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

I've already made a good argument. If you can't have basic knowledge of the topic at hand before chipping in with pointless posts, I don't see why I should be polite.

And fyi, nothing I said was a 'personal attack'; it is not a personal attack to call out ignorance.

But please, threaten me with the moderators like they are some weapon you wield, moderators just love being used like that.

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

Socrates.

[Zergling]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 28 October 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

Socrates.

When you've lost an argument, pretend to take the moral high ground instead! Playing the victim card always works!

Fact is, you displayed gross ignorance of the topic at hand. Don't get defensive when someone calls you out on your own mistakes, just admit you were wrong and move on like a mature adult.

Or continue to play childish passive-aggression games if you like.

Edited by Zergling, 28 October 2016 - 12:40 PM.

[Fox the Apprentice]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 28 October 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

Socrates.

Zergling, on 27 October 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

[...]
the event leaderboards data?




Mcgral18 + El Bandito's stats are significant samples, showing that the mech is overpowered in the hands of players that know what they are doing.
The leaderboards show that over a large number of players over a large number of battles, the Kodiak is overpowered.


Those sets of data are statistically significant, and not 'cherry-picking' in any way.


Further, there is in fact, data representative of players closer to average than El Bandito and Mcgral18 in the KDK-3; your own leaderboard stats:
Overall = 1.18 W/L, 1.56 K/D, 270 average MS
Lights = 1.27 W/L, 1.10 K/D, 185 average MS
Mediums = 0.68 W/L, 0.74 K/D, 168 average MS
Heavies = 1.00 W/L, 1.43 K/D, 248 average MS
Assaults = 1.54 W/L, 2.28 K/D, 369 average MS



The same goes for MOBAjobq:

Overall = 1.16 W/L, 1.32 K/D, 255 average MS
Lights = 1.11 W/L, 1.01 K/D, 184 average MS
Mediums = 1.06 W/L, 0.83 K/D, 214 average MS
Heavies = 1.40 W/L, 1.09 K/D, 239 average MS
Assaults = 1.15 W/L, 1.72 K/D, 310 average MS


[...]

I await your argument.

Edited by Fox the Apprentice, 28 October 2016 - 12:42 PM.