25 replies to this topic

[Alteran]

Well if you've read any of my posts on CW/FW/FP you will know my stance and what I want.

But...

Given what we've all been told by Russ, 2 bukkits (Clan and IS) and 4 planets'ish in the fight, my thought is why bother with that. Most I would argue, want to keep their faction identity. If that is the case and in the interest of the 2 bukkits, run Tukky 24/7/12.

I posted it as a sarcastic remark, but then thought about it. Why not?

Without the depth that CW was supposed to have, the IS map is useless. Tagging planets for 15MC a cycle is not a reward worth fighting for. If all that is really the case, then get rid of it all.

Run Tukky all day, every day.

Implementation time - well we've done it three times already, it can be done in a minor patch today. We could be running the two bukkits by this afternoon.

I've come to accept the reality of how limited PGI is with their programmer base and current vision for MWO. The original concept of CW was a true in-depth vision for a game mode that at best has been handled manually over the last 15+ years by user groups, like NBT and Star League. PGI had an opportunity to raise the bar and give any future Mechwarrior title a new standard to achieve. They failed to deliver their promised game mode. FP as purposed, or as PGI has currently envisioned and even now, is just an extended version of QP with a terrible queue.

[Appogee]

But... but... but...



It'll all be fixed, 90 days™ from MechCon.

[nehebkau]

One of the biggest problems with CW is balance and bukkits are not going to fix that.... NOW BEFORE PEOPLE START QQING (Oh wait! I bet some of you already stopped reading and went into abused precious little snowflake mode)... I am not just talking about can vs is balance -- i am more so talking about pug vs 12 man and comp vs casual balance. People tend to quit when they perceive an imbalance that will prevent them from having a chance at winning.

This isn't a get-gud moment or a "cw is hard mode' all that is BS and smoke used to obscure what is a uncomfortable truth. If you want a healthy game you need a healthy game environment and population. EVERY successful game out there where you have competition between players makes some effort to segregate the more experienced from the less experienced. Why? it is no fun for an experienced player to be sandbagged by a window licker and just as bad for a newbie to be ham-fisted by a pro. If you don't like the fact that you gotta hold a baby by the hand -- life is full of crap you are not going to like -- but scaring people away from a "AA Title" is just stupid business.



Bukkits wont fix this -- it will actually make it much worse just like a battle of Tuk won't fix it.

But maybe you are on to something -- just cut FW development and plan its end of life and concentrate on building the other aspects of the game. Let the players do with FW as they please. With no FW development maybe we can actually get a game lobby, a true Social interface and more grouping tools. Hell maybe even Solaris.

Edited by nehebkau, 12 November 2016 - 12:01 PM.

[Alteran]

The problem with FP right now is that most of the PUG's have quit FP. PGI should have kept the split queues and let it ride out for a few months and then re-revaluate. They gave it, what 3 weeks? Not even?

If this was November of last year, I'd be advocating that PGI is still developing CW/FW and going to give us what they promised us, but then Mechcon came and went, we got what we got for FW/FP and Russ now talking about bukkits the last few months...

CW/FW/FP is done.

Further development for MWO.... no. They don't have the talent or vision to do it. I've finally woken up and see the reality of PGI's limitations. They are good at making the frame and graphic looks of Mechs, but that is it.

Solaris, if they develop it, will be no better than FP. People will complain about tiers, balance, cheaters and the need to separate out the different techs into different Solaris leaderboards. Then it'll be the same 50-100 people playing the game mode and nothing else... much like we see in FP.

In the end, I'm pretty sure FP is done. Bukkits won't help save the game mode, it's PGI's easy way out scenario, it's life support without a feeding tube. PGI and others can keep telling us it's the 'lack of community support' and eventually a portion will begin to believe it. Those of us that have been here since the launch of CW knows why the game mode died... lack of immersion. It is the lack of immersion that brought us to the point where it is now a lack of community issue. It's only ever been a QP on steroids mode, nothing more.

What I suggest is at least a way to keep the faction identity and give PGI the immediate bukkit play they are looking for. At least then they can test the 2 bukkit system to see if it's even worth dedicating resources to it.

[VonBruinwald]

I blame clan stacking and unit conspiracy.

FW is predominantly Clan Vs IS (That's your two buckets right there) and argue as you will Clans are more edgy so there are more players aligned with them.

Then we get into the Merc Unit conspiracy. When the larger units are primarily working with each other as opposed to against each other we end up with pug stomping causing smaller units to quit and the larger units to sit on one side of the Clan Vs IS fence.

You can argue the finer details but there's clearly a clan bias in the player base (just look at the current FW event) and I doubt Team Green would have taken so much of the sphere if the larger units were consistently working against them as opposed to with them.

[Alteran]

VonBruinwald, on 12 November 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

I blame clan stacking and unit conspiracy.

FW is predominantly Clan Vs IS (That's your two buckets right there) and argue as you will Clans are more edgy so there are more players aligned with them.

Then we get into the Merc Unit conspiracy. When the larger units are primarily working with each other as opposed to against each other we end up with pug stomping causing smaller units to quit and the larger units to sit on one side of the Clan Vs IS fence.

You can argue the finer details but there's clearly a clan bias in the player base (just look at the current FW event) and I doubt Team Green would have taken so much of the sphere if the larger units were consistently working against them as opposed to with them.

We could all re-hash the same threads and arguments from the past two years, but it won't help anything. OP Clans vs UP IS... yes we can bring out the 'Lore' that founded this entire BT universe, but it was the narrow implementation of CW that led us down the path of 'balance'.

If we all stepped back and looked at the posts of yesteryear, we'd see that many of us that pre-purchased the Clan Collection pack knew the tech would be at least twice that of the IS... BUT, we expected a balancing with amount of Mechs we could field and a limitation of tonnage before CW was even released. 3:1 was what I actually expected, but given how CW turned into QPonRoids PGI gave themselves no other option.

The amount of Pay-To-Win (Clan Tech) threads was merited, given how PGI released CW and how QP was going, but what did anyone expect? I and so many other people just spent the equivalent of 3+ times the cost of a AAA premium game release on a content pack. Never mind Wave 2 & 3....

MWO's system for QP should have had the tech separated and left alone. CW should have had tonnage and number restrictions, like 48 IS @ 11,000 tons to 16-24 Clan Mechs @ 5000 tons. I would have even advocated for Stock only.

Units... well Lore being Lore, the Merc units should have only worked for IS Houses and limited in size by the Economics of running a Merc Unit. Want to bounce around between a Clan and IS unit, go for it, but you'll be starting over each and every time.

As for the current phase and Jade Falcon, it's no different than when MS went FRR, or Wolf, or whatever. People will play the Tech they bought and paid for. Which in this case I suspect is mostly Clan tech. It's too bad that PGI didn't have a matching IS to Clan pack at each release. Perhaps then we'd have seen a much stronger Tech loyalty.

[Alteran]

Commander A9's post about scheduling matches just put the icing on the cake.

[LordNothing]

id think i would prefer 4 buckets. 4 "factions" which are really alliances of lore factions. you have to join one but you can pick any one of the banners for the lore factions that are part of that alliance. so pretty much same thing we got but with fewer factions, and with a logo selector. i would also supply several merc banners as well.

4 factions are easy to balance too (population wise). if there is a big spread then you just make it so the biggest faction has to fight everyone, the least populous faction only fights the most populous, the other 2 in the middle may fight eachother or the most populous. otherwise all factions at war. then adopt a free trade down rule and incentives for being part of the least populated faction. if you waive penalties for trading down you will see people move over to a lesser faction more frequently. nobody wants to give up a quarter of their points just to trade to an inferior position.

even with 2 buckets you can still allow players on both sides to pick whatever banner they want so long as its on their side. you can have a frendly competition kind of thing where the lore factions on the same side can compete for scores, most drops, most wins, etc. maybe a monthly best of clan/is prize, say 3m cbills, to the faction on each side with the highest performance. you can also have a 1m cbill prize for best side. both would require some minimum participation requirement (say 10 or more games or a certain amount of lp/rp).

Edited by LordNothing, 13 November 2016 - 04:37 AM.

[LordNothing]

Alteran, on 12 November 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Commander A9's post about scheduling matches just put the icing on the cake.

if its in the form of scheduled unit vs unit matches, there are some rules (best 2 out of 3 or something like that), a prize (say a planet), and penalties for failing to show, then yes. if this is in batchall format, where both sides lay down a prize (say cbills/mc from the coffers, or a held planet) and agree to fight, then definitely yes.

granted the units do have the organizational resources to do it all themselves, but i think it would be better as a game feature and not some metasystem.

[jss78]

I must say I'm not terribly interested in # of buckets, as long as the gameplay itself is not more interesting. Invasion is simply not a very interesting game mode -- I can see myself playing it 10% of my MWO time, if that.

Size of player base being what it is, they really need to be able to engage a broader % of player base in FW. The gameplay itself needs to be more fun, but I think beyond that the # of buckets probably needs to go down -- and that's to introduce a rudimentary MM keeping big groups and solos apart. It's just never going to be a fun experience otherwise, and no game out there has ever really tried to put full teams vs. solos, and it's kind of ludicrous that PGI's been doing it for so long.

So make the gameplay itself fun, and give the more casual player a meaningful FW experience. As you start getting a substantial proportion of the player base back in FW, start cautiously increasing the # of buckets (e.g. IS-vs-IS events on top of IS-vs-Clan only). IMO this is the the way out of the hole.

But really I just posted to add a baby walrus meme:

[xe N on]

Alteran, on 12 November 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

The problem with FP right now is that most of the PUG's have quit FP. PGI should have kept the split queues and let it ride out for a few months and then re-revaluate. They gave it, what 3 weeks? Not even?

That is because unit and comp players insisted that this game mode is not for PUGs. PUG bashing in forum was intense.

Now, the unit players have their will. lol. A PUG-free FW.

PS: If I remember right the split queue was only for 2 days. Split queue brought me back playing FW after 1 year ... for at least 2 days.

Won't play until split queue is introduced again. Buckets won't change that. FW will stay dead.

Edited by xe N on, 13 November 2016 - 08:33 AM.

[TheLuc]

all very nice writing guys, like if the Russ will event take note. stop wasting your time, wanna get the game you want.. keep the wallets closed, thats all you got to do.

[Alteran]

TheLuc, on 13 November 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

all very nice writing guys, like if the Russ will event take note. stop wasting your time, wanna get the game you want.. keep the wallets closed, thats all you got to do.

Typically, I don't post, it's only the last few weeks that I've decided to open up, because the player base is fading fast. PGI can see this with their in game stats and we can see it within our units and friends lists. We see it in the QP and FP queues and it's getting bad.

I don't believe that running a Tukky 24/7/12 is any kind of solution to CW/FW/FP. It's a pretty small band-aid to stop a deep gash from bleeding. 2, 4, 8 factions is not the answer either.

Trying to balance weapons and mechs with quirks, nerfs and buffs isn't solving anything either. Too many want a balanced game and PGI is killing the game in doing so.

Game-mode mechanics is the best solution. QP - use filters to give the player the experience they are looking for. FP - use # of mechs fielded and tonnage limits. Change up the number of players allowed on the map to at least 24 or 36 per side. It would be an incredible battle to see 24 IS vs 10 Clan.

Here we are 2 years after the release of CW and they are talking about bundling up everyone into just a few bukkits... CW could have been incredible, what a waste.

[nehebkau]

Alteran, on 13 November 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

...CW could have been incredible, what a waste.

Yep. Failure to hire resources who could carry out their lofty desires. I am not bad mouthing the developers but what they had wanted for FW required, at least, a management group with design and implementation experience of the type of game they wanted to build. Experience is power and currency in the video game world.... (a rip off of Billy Idol).

Which is why I say PGI should just stop all work on FW after the buckets and work on improving the core aspects of the game, social tools, grouping tools and public solaris matches.

edit
by public solaris matches I mean a player can create a solaris match that people can join -- letting the player who makes the match choose the parameters (weight limits, load outs, map etc.) and others decide if they want to join. (I guess that would be called player-made QP arenas)

Edited by nehebkau, 13 November 2016 - 02:48 PM.

[Deathlike]

For the record, running a perma-Tukayyid would burn out whatever's left of the FW/CW population significantly quicker.

[Alteran]

Deathlike, on 13 November 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

For the record, running a perma-Tukayyid would burn out whatever's left of the FW/CW population significantly quicker.

How? So we move to 4 planets with on-going battles instead of one? How is that any different? From what I have read and listened to, we'll be able to decide which planet to drop on... so... it's no different than Tukky. Perhaps if we're running just Tukky, PGI can bring in a version of the MM so we aren't clubbing the crap out of the PUGs.

Burnout is exactly what we have, the queues are a direct reflection of that. Without a reason to fight a CW match, other than pride and planet tagging, we've got what we've got.

Mechcon will need to have a solid CW/FW/FP content announcement to keep me going. If there is nothing in Mechcon, that is up for immediate release, I'll be refocusing my time in MWO.

[LordNothing]

xe N on, on 13 November 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

That is because unit and comp players insisted that this game mode is not for PUGs. PUG bashing in forum was intense.

Now, the unit players have their will. lol. A PUG-free FW.

PS: If I remember right the split queue was only for 2 days. Split queue brought me back playing FW after 1 year ... for at least 2 days.

Won't play until split queue is introduced again. Buckets won't change that. FW will stay dead.

they should have just let the phase 3 event run with the split queue. frankly the 2 all pug games i played were great. if players dont turn out for fp most of the time they do show up for an event (like this week). had all those pugs enjoyed a stomp free game during that event they might have stuck around, some may have joined units. but instead they were merged and the event ran and pugs took a beating, so go figure when the event ended the majority of them never came back.

[Commander A9]

Problem.

After week-long Tukayyid events, the entire community gets burned out.

Look what happened after the month-long back-to-back daily challenges of October.

Honestly, the first unit I was in never really recovered from Tukayyid I. Much as it was fun, dropping 24-7 was exhausting...alot of people never returned..

What you need...is to restore the ability to take multiple planets again. Taking only one planet per attack phase leaves you few options once that planet swings full 100% against you...and no one bothers defending anymore once their chosen attack planet has been secured...Phase 3 placed alot of restrictions upon the units...

Essentially...we need a mass rollback to Phase 1...

Edited by Commander A9, 13 November 2016 - 06:49 PM.

[Alteran]

Commander A9, on 13 November 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

Problem.

After week-long Tukayyid events, the entire community gets burned out.

Look what happened after the month-long back-to-back daily challenges of October.

Honestly, the first unit I was in never really recovered from Tukayyid I. Much as it was fun, dropping 24-7 was exhausting...alot of people never returned..

What you need...is to restore the ability to take multiple planets again. Taking only one planet per attack phase leaves you few options once that planet swings full 100% against you...and no one bothers defending anymore once their chosen attack planet has been secured...Phase 3 placed alot of restrictions upon the units...

Essentially...we need a mass rollback to Phase 1...

I'm cool with a rollback to Phase 1, as long as Scouting is kept (that was a good game-mode addition to CW/FW/FP), but will that be enough to bring back all the Units and players that abandoned CW? I don't think it will. We will have what we have now.

CW as it is right now is flawed to it's core. As long as it's just a dot covered map without any kind of economy or logistics it's just QPonRoids.

If Russ has his way, we essentially will have a 4 planet Tukky to choose from. Pick whatever planet you want to drop on because you are either Clan or IS. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess I don't see a difference.

[nehebkau]

Alteran, on 13 November 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

I'm cool with a rollback to Phase 1, as long as Scouting is kept (that was a good game-mode addition to CW/FW/FP),

Scouting is as broken as invasion.