37 replies to this topic

[Spheroid]

With the AC-2 buffs is there any reason to ever use the AC-5 again?

With cooldown module five and a mild 5% chassis AC-5 buff, the AC-5 only barely beats the AC-2 in dps and still loses in DPS/T. On generic ballistic platforms the AC-2 handily is the better weapon in all metrics.

We know modules are getting nerfed so will the AC-5 only be seen on Dragons, Riflemen and Wolverines?

The AC-2 is accomplishing all this without its own cooldown module. On something with specific AC-2 quirks like the BJ-1, nothing can touch it.

Edited by Spheroid, 19 November 2016 - 03:38 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

great, people want machine gun AC/5's again.

[Bombast]

AC/5s put more damage into a single location, guaranteed, an advantage that is increased with every additional AC/5 fired at the same time.

So a single AC/5 will do 5 damage to a single location. AC/5x2 will do 10. AC/5x3 does 15 damage.

A single AC/2 does 2, AC/2x2 does 4, and AC/2x3 does 6.

In other words, AC/5s do a better job of putting all the damage in one spot, something AC/2s are pretty bad at. Also, most mechs can't carry enough AC/2s to really do anything with. Also also, AC/2s require a **** ton of 'Stand and Deliver,' something that is not good for most mechs.

That being said, I love my quad AC/2 Jager.

Edited by Bombast, 19 November 2016 - 03:44 PM.

[Spheroid]

@Bombast. The AC-2 generates more crit rolls though, potentially leading to faster target death. It does this at far greater range and with a far greater projectile velocity. Also more sustainable heat vs the AC-5. After this recent patch the AC-5 is in a weak place.

Edited by Spheroid, 19 November 2016 - 04:13 PM.

[Bombast]

Spheroid, on 19 November 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

@Bombast. Ac-2 generates more crit rolls though potential leading to faster target death. It does this at far greater range and with a far greater projectile velocity. After this recent patch the AC-5 is in a weak place.

AC/2s also don't do much crit damage, so most modules can take a huge pummeling before enough crits land in just the right place to actually do anything.

And again, most mechs can't carry enough AC/2s to match even one AC/5. And they still suck at focusing enough damage to reliably and quickly break open armor, particularly if your taking advantage of their range.

The AC/2 has its advantages (Good rate of fire and range). So does the AC/5 (Good range and damage concentration). And the AC/10 (Can break stuff in one shot). And the AC/20 (Boom Boom).

The AC/2 also has disadvantages (100% face time, low damage concentration, heavily limited by hard points). And the AC/5 (Low overall damage, does poorly as a solo weapon). And the AC/10 (Heavy as hell). And the AC/20 (Knife Fight range, low ammo count, locked out of a lot of XL builds).

Edited by Bombast, 19 November 2016 - 03:55 PM.

[Spheroid]

Go try it out and see how that works for you. Quad AC-2 on a Jager vs. triple AC-5. Math dictates the AC-2s will outperform the AC-5s. Also not all those AC-5 will hit the same body section due to convergence issues while leading. AC-5 PPFLD meta is long dead. Don't see many triple AC-5 Banshees, I do see plenty of Clan gauss/ER PPC designs.

Edited by Spheroid, 19 November 2016 - 04:07 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

AC5 still usable.

[Bombast]

Spheroid, on 19 November 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

Go try it out and see how that works for you. Quad AC-2 on Jager vs. triple AC-5. Math dictates the AC-2s will outperform the AC-5s.

Ok, my sinuses are to messed up for me to shove on through whatever the hell your trying to do here.

I have provided reasons why you are wrong. Counter them or stop. Or failing that, actual do the math. Like I did (JM5-DD). Triple AC/5s lose 2 DPS a second to Quad AC/2s. For that they get...

- Increased defense (Ability to torso swing between shots)
- Increase in 'Effective' Damage
- One less Ballistic Point Required

So, got anything else other then Raw damage output? Particularly since raw damage output is actually a fairly garbage stat?

[Iain Sumner]

I won't use less/more AC2/AC5 because of these minor change. All loadouts stay the same for me.

[Bud Crue]

There's something about the cycle speed and sound of the AC5 that just bugs me. To that end,
unless critical spaces are an issue I tend to find away to get an extra ton so as to upgrade any build where I consider taking a AC5 to a UAC5. With the exception of the Black Jack, I don't run AC2s unless I can get at least 3 of them in (love the Shadowhawk). Thus there are only a few builds where I even consider the use of AC5s and frankly even then if I have room for 2 AC5s (16 tons) but can't fit in two UACs, I'd just as soon skip the lot and take a Gauss.

AC5s may or may not be obsolete but AC2s, UACs and even Gauss are more fun and sound cooler.

[Y E O N N E]

The AC/5 has been functionally obsolete for a long time now, because anything that can fit them can also fit a UAC/5. It is a no-brainer to pay the 1 ton, 1 slot, and 20 meter penalty to get potentially twice the DPS. The AC/5 has good pin-point damage, but it doesn't matter because it is getting out-DPSed by UAC/5 and cUACs, because when you are doing poke a Gauss rifle can put 5 more damage in one spot for less weight and slots than a pair of AC/5, and because even laser vomit will do more damage to one area per unit of time than AC/5.

It's just not good enough on its own, and only passable on 'Mechs that can boat the crap out of them at range like the MAL-MX90 or that have stupendous rate of fire quirks like the RFL-3N...and even on the latter UAC/5 are still better.

[Gas Guzzler]

Iain Sumner, on 19 November 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

I won't use less/more AC2/AC5 because of these minor change. All loadouts stay the same for me.

A 50% heat increase is not minor.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 November 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

A 50% heat increase is not minor.

It is minor since that FIFTY percent increase only equates to 0.5 heat. You won't feel the difference unless you boat 4-5 AC5s, like the Mauler or Black Widow. And even then, your DPH is still very efficient.

Spheroid, on 19 November 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

Go try it out and see how that works for you. Quad AC-2 on a Jager vs. triple AC-5. Math dictates the AC-2s will outperform the AC-5s. Also not all those AC-5 will hit the same body section due to convergence issues while leading. AC-5 PPFLD meta is long dead. Don't see many triple AC-5 Banshees, I do see plenty of Clan gauss/ER PPC designs.

Jager can't face time. Not any more.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 November 2016 - 09:43 PM.

[JediPanther]

The only reason to take ac or uac is if you really hate your gun jaming on the first or second shot or if you macro the hell out of the uacs so they never jam which pgi allows. Hmm maybe that is why you never want to use the ac when you can just macro uac and win.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 19 November 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

It is minor since that FIFTY percent increase only equates to 0.5 heat. You won't feel the difference unless you boat 4-5 AC5s, like the Mauler or Black Widow. And even then, your DPH is still very efficient.

The extra heat does d*ck over the IS 'Mechs doing PPC+AC, though, which were already toeing the line.

[RestosIII]

JediPanther, on 19 November 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

The only reason to take ac or uac is if you really hate your gun jaming on the first or second shot or if you macro the hell out of the uacs so they never jam which pgi allows. Hmm maybe that is why you never want to use the ac when you can just macro uac and win.

There are still people claiming that macros make AC's more powerful? Really?

[El Bandito]

JediPanther, on 19 November 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

The only reason to take ac or uac is if you really hate your gun jaming on the first or second shot or if you macro the hell out of the uacs so they never jam which pgi allows. Hmm maybe that is why you never want to use the ac when you can just macro uac and win.

Pray tell, how would macros help in this regard? Only way to never jam is to never double tap the weapon, which means there will never be risk free extra damage on UACs, even when using macros.

Yeonne Greene, on 19 November 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

The extra heat does d*ck over the IS 'Mechs doing PPC+AC, though, which were already toeing the line.

Then buff other aspects of AC5, such as velocity. Leave the heat as is, to prevent extreme boating, and have consistency.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 November 2016 - 10:42 PM.

[Black Phoebe]

Spheroid, on 19 November 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

AC-5 PPFLD meta is long dead. Don't see many triple AC-5 Banshees, I do see plenty of Clan gauss/ER PPC designs.

Fair enough, but how many AC/2 Banshees have you seen after the patch?

The AC/2 and AC/5 changes are the least problem the AC/5 has. By the time you are running hot on a AC/5 boat, you should have done a good amount of damage. The problem is, that you have to survive long enough against Gauss/PPC boats, but you seem to be aware of this already.

Edited by Black Phoebe, 19 November 2016 - 10:45 PM.

[RestosIII]

El Bandito, on 19 November 2016 - 10:39 PM, said:

I hate to make this about me (blatantly lying ATM), but what's the difference between normal gifs and anime gifs in regards to people's reactions? There seems to be a major difference in how much vitriol is aimed at one, and not the other.

Also AC/2s aren't better than AC/5's IMO just because of the spread damage difference, and how much staring is involved.

[El Bandito]

RestosIII, on 19 November 2016 - 10:44 PM, said:

I hate to make this about me (blatantly lying ATM), but what's the difference between normal gifs and anime gifs in regards to people's reactions? There seems to be a major difference in how much vitriol is aimed at one, and not the other.

Normal gifs are far more relatable. Some disproportionately weird looking face of a Japanese anime girl on the other hand, not as much.




I am an anime lover too (back in 1997 Rei was my waifu), but I consider most anime girl gifs to be too annoying and cliche. (seriously, the market is too saturated with ****** anime aimed for adolescent males, with only the artwork being somewhat ok).

Edited by El Bandito, 19 November 2016 - 11:17 PM.