24 replies to this topic

[AncientRaig]

*Edit* Links fixed.

I'm trying to refine my CTF-0XP build a bit. I'm running a variation of the AC/20 4ML brawler: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...728168615278260 It's a good build, basically just the "meta" build with a few DHS switched out for a bigger engine, but I'm getting slightly aggravated by not having anything to crit-pad my AC/20. It seems like every time I lose armor on the RT my AC/20 goes a few seconds later, leading to numerous situations where my torso is largely undamaged, but because I got hit by an LL sniper my AC/20 is now molten scrap. So, I changed to this build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7b891013cd5bd9a Slightly smaller engine, but with one ton of ammo shifted to the RT, plus a case, and an extra half ton in the LT. I'm wondering if the change is worth it or not, or if anyone here in has ideas on what I could do.

Anyone who suggests buying another mech will be taken behind the barn and shot.

Edited by Sidefire, 26 November 2016 - 01:07 PM.

[MikeBend]

Hi!
For some reason your links dont show a build in smurfy.
Was it something like this?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...573610805ed7d1d

[BlueFlames]

[edit] The periods in SideFire's build links got pulled into the URL. Copy and paste the URL, then delete the period to see what he built. [/edit]

There's a lot to like about the build as presented. Front-loaded armor is always a good call, and the heat management for the weapon loadout looks good. I also like a build that uses every crit slot, but I'm crazy and value that aspect of a build more than I should.

Looking for possible improvements, the first thing that jumps out at me is CASE. It's usefulness is limited. The Cataphract tends to draw fire to its side torsos, as opposed to its legs, which means you can usually sneak your ammo away in the legs and not have to worry about containing an ammo explosion, since you're less likely to have one to begin with.

If you shift your ammo into your legs and CT (CT ammo is expended first), then you can drop CASE. That and a fairly aggressive armor shave will allow you to add another ton of ammo and upgrade the engine to a STD325, which confers a little more speed and may have more utility in other builds/mechs, owing to the extra heat sink slot. The extra ammo will help keep the AC20 firing through an entire match. Three tons was sufficient to feed an AC20 in the 8v8 days, but now it's insufficient, unless you're planning to die early or have your AC20 crit out--both of which are bad plans.

Making those modifications result in this build.

Personally, I tend to prefer slamming in the biggest XL engine that will fit into a chassis, instead of using a standard engine. Because you're using an AC20 and only have a ballistic hardpoint in the side torso, that kind of goes beyond the realm of refinement. (But muh big side tors--Twist harder!) If you are open to a more extensive redesign, then here's some other builds to consider.

Edited by BlueFlames, 26 November 2016 - 12:17 AM.

[TheLuc]

I would personally go without the AC/20, instead I do prefer something more Classic like this

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c50496aefc7dd73

[jss78]

I think the first build has a lot going for it. I think all I'd do is take away the CASE, strip half ton of armour, and put in a fourth ton of AC/20 ammo.

I've come to feel that CASE is just not worth it in MWO. This is mainly because to me ammo explosions are rare -- even when your build doesn't allow good crit-padding, they just happen quite rarely for me. It's all different in a TT/RPG context where ammo explosions are much more common, and having CASE is the difference between having something left of your 'mech to repair -- and that 'mech could've come down in your PC's family for generations, vs. here we just start another game. So it's just something that doesn't transfer to MWO's economic realities.

An alternative approach to that build would be to drop the engine a little, remove Ferro, and put in a lot more DHS. Something like this I'm not sure it's really "better", just an alternative approach. Oftentimes I feel like with big STD engines you pay "too much" tonnage for a few km/h more speed, while more DHS is just more useful, especially in a brawler 'mech like this.

[VonBruinwald]

TheLuc, on 26 November 2016 - 12:21 AM, said:

I do prefer something more Classic

I like your style.

Clan-Buster

[AncientRaig]

BlueFlames, on 26 November 2016 - 12:08 AM, said:

[edit] The periods in SideFire's build links got pulled into the URL. Copy and paste the URL, then delete the period to see what he built. [/edit]

There's a lot to like about the build as presented. Front-loaded armor is always a good call, and the heat management for the weapon loadout looks good. I also like a build that uses every crit slot, but I'm crazy and value that aspect of a build more than I should.

Looking for possible improvements, the first thing that jumps out at me is CASE. It's usefulness is limited. The Cataphract tends to draw fire to its side torsos, as opposed to its legs, which means you can usually sneak your ammo away in the legs and not have to worry about containing an ammo explosion, since you're less likely to have one to begin with.

If you shift your ammo into your legs and CT (CT ammo is expended first), then you can drop CASE. That and a fairly aggressive armor shave will allow you to add another ton of ammo and upgrade the engine to a STD325, which confers a little more speed and may have more utility in other builds/mechs, owing to the extra heat sink slot. The extra ammo will help keep the AC20 firing through an entire match. Three tons was sufficient to feed an AC20 in the 8v8 days, but now it's insufficient, unless you're planning to die early or have your AC20 crit out--both of which are bad plans.

Making those modifications result in this build.

Personally, I tend to prefer slamming in the biggest XL engine that will fit into a chassis, instead of using a standard engine. Because you're using an AC20 and only have a ballistic hardpoint in the side torso, that kind of goes beyond the realm of refinement. (But muh big side tors--Twist harder!) If you are open to a more extensive redesign, then here's some other builds to consider.

jss78, on 26 November 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

I think the first build has a lot going for it. I think all I'd do is take away the CASE, strip half ton of armour, and put in a fourth ton of AC/20 ammo.

I've come to feel that CASE is just not worth it in MWO. This is mainly because to me ammo explosions are rare -- even when your build doesn't allow good crit-padding, they just happen quite rarely for me. It's all different in a TT/RPG context where ammo explosions are much more common, and having CASE is the difference between having something left of your 'mech to repair -- and that 'mech could've come down in your PC's family for generations, vs. here we just start another game. So it's just something that doesn't transfer to MWO's economic realities.

An alternative approach to that build would be to drop the engine a little, remove Ferro, and put in a lot more DHS. Something like this I'm not sure it's really "better", just an alternative approach. Oftentimes I feel like with big STD engines you pay "too much" tonnage for a few km/h more speed, while more DHS is just more useful, especially in a brawler 'mech like this.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying with the CASE. Unfortunately, it's just one of my personal oddities. I get some minor OCD when it comes to ammo placement so putting it in the legs aggravates me for pretty much no reason other than a little voice in the back of my head going "HOW DOES IT GET TO THE GUN IN MY ARM FROM THERE?!"

[Ghostrider0067]

I ran mine with 4x ML and an LBX10 with full cooldown module for a long time. I also used a 300 standard engine for additional speed. I switch between the 10X and an AC20. It makes for a solid punching ECM helper. At present, it's 4x MPL, AC20, and a 280. Fully mastered, it's still got a good amount of speed.

Edited by Ghostrider0067, 30 November 2016 - 10:08 AM.

[Kuaron]

Ghostrider0067, on 30 November 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

At present, it's 4x MPL, AC20, and a 280.

Same here, but I bought mine yesterday.
Basiced after 2 games, the first of which was 12k XP.
(daily x2, event x2, prem x1.5)

Not sure what to try next, probably an LBX build, indeed.

[Ghostrider0067]

An LBX build does work pretty well, too. Obviously you have to deal with the spread damage, but by going with a lighter weapon it does allow for more engine. I think I carried at least four tons of LBX ammo and that was usually sufficient. Good luck and I hope you are enjoying your new purchase.

[Kuaron]

Thanks.
So what do you do with the spare weight after sticking in LBX+4ML+STD300?
Upgrading to MPL? Downgrading from FF and sticking in more DHS?
Neither sounds that convincing.

[Ghostrider0067]

I don't run FF. I usually run DHS and ES. If I have any extra tonnage that isn't consumed by ammo, it's for sensors like a Beagle or a CC. I also run CASE for my ammo even though some choose to not do so. Finally, I run max armor. Since I'm going to be mixing it up, I need all the protection I can get.

[Kuaron]

Uhh… Idk.
CC is underpowered altogether, sometimes fun with very long ranges and zoom module, but not really necessary, doesn’t give you an actual advantage. Only use in case of the CTF would be the sped up paper doll data for bonus damage on stripped components with the LBX, but we are speaking about 3 tons for merely 20% faster data.
BAP can be useful for the same reason, but you are wasting it’s increased range if you are flaying as you should and hiding behind a rock till brawling starts on half of the maps.
It is more of an option since it weights less, but if this effect appears as important, you should use the info gathering module first.
CASE – where do you have your ammo?
In the LBX ST? If it goes, you stay with only 2 ML left, so no big point protecting your adjacent components from the explosion. Or in the shield ST – how do you shield then?
Maybe in the arm with CASE, but then you also cannot shield with this one, and the CTF has huge arms.
I know, people dislike it for logic and lore reasons, but legs… and there you cannot put CASE either, not space.

Also, leg armour. At least if you are not putting your ammo there, you don’t need it on full. And if you do, you still don’t, but slightly more than otherwise.

If this are the options, I think the only viable one is… non of them, but increasing the engine size, even if it gets heavy one step above 300. Or upgrading the lasers to either MPLs or changing one ML for an LPL, depending on preferred range and cooling. Also, if FF fits, there is no reason not to use it (after, ofc, the obligatory ES and DHS upgrades).

[Ghostrider0067]

I'd rather have all of the spaces filled and my tonnage used to the max than to run short. While that you say is true to a degree with regard to sensors, they do help. It's ultimately up to you how to go about your leftover tonnage but I've found success with my build. To your point about the info gathering module, that requires GXP to unlock it and the BAP only requires c-bills. That makes a difference enough to me for a lower level player who may not have the GXP saved up or is saving it for something else.

As for CASE, I use it in the only place you can and that is in the ST. You have to twist, naturally, to minimize or spread damage but it does help. I do run ammo in the legs on some of builds other than the Cataphract, however.

Everyone builds how they choose and I was just advising what works for me. You don't have to build yours the same. I don't follow the "meta" and like to do things my own way. What you do is up to you and you'll find your sweet spot. Good luck either way.

Edited by Ghostrider0067, 02 December 2016 - 09:49 AM.

[Aramuside]

Only thing about the MASC comments above is my Spirit Bear Brawler moves at what 90.7 with MASC engaged which is impressive .... a 30 ton lighter mech doing just a bit more not so much.

Either way i'll be fascinated to try it when I switch from mastering my current Linebackers, Kodiaks and Night Gyr's......

Well presuming I have much time before the Marauder II's in 11 days.

[Ghostrider0067]

Aramuside, on 02 December 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Only thing about the MASC comments above is my Spirit Bear Brawler moves at what 90.7 with MASC engaged which is impressive .... a 30 ton lighter mech doing just a bit more not so much.

Either way i'll be fascinated to try it when I switch from mastering my current Linebackers, Kodiaks and Night Gyr's......

Well presuming I have much time before the Marauder II's in 11 days.

Comparing a Clan assault which clearly has very inherent advantages to an IS heavy isn't really a good comparison, but I guess whatever works. It's impressive to see a KDK moving that fast given it's size, that is beyond dispute.

[Kuaron]

You really don’t need to explain for passages that I’m allowed to do my own builds and not obliged to copy yours.
I already knew!

A discussion works if each presents one’s own theses and proves the other one’s for agreement and contradicts otherwise.
After this one, for example, I’m actually thinking of trying a configuration with target data module and BAP to see it’s worth it. (CC is still to inefficient.)

But do I see it right, you actually lack GXP after the recent double XP event?
I’m more concerned about CBs after finally getting free mechbays and buying two Mechs. ^^
But I could have the module on another Mech somewhere, I’ll go look later.

[Ghostrider0067]

No. I have the GXP. I was speaking to the point of if someone didn't have enough and they were weighing the possibilities. I'm low at this point but have plenty of modules already, target info being one of them.

[Aramuside]

Ghostrider0067, on 02 December 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

No. I have the GXP. I was speaking to the point of if someone didn't have enough and they were weighing the possibilities. I'm low at this point but have plenty of modules already, target info being one of them.

Yes and with the skill/module rewrite being announced at mechcon a lot of people are holding off on spending gxp/c-bills on modules etc anyway. Who know what will suddenly become useful/useless.

[Ghostrider0067]

Aramuside, on 03 December 2016 - 01:58 AM, said:

Yes and with the skill/module rewrite being announced at mechcon a lot of people are holding off on spending gxp/c-bills on modules etc anyway. Who know what will suddenly become useful/useless.

I was unaware of any such changes and knowing this now changes my thought process as it relates to them. Now I'm wondering what, precisely, they have in mind?

Edited by Ghostrider0067, 03 December 2016 - 11:29 AM.