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#1 Navy Sixes

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 02:04 PM

I'm considering a heavy build with a pair of AC5's. I've run it a few times, with encouraging results.

Compared to a single AC10, 2xAC5 enjoys longer range, faster ROF, faster projectile speed, and higher DPS. Two guns are more survivable than just one; it is possible to lose one AC5 and carry on in a reduced capacity, whereas if that 10 goes, I'm SOL.

The thing is, it feels inefficient to me. Why waste 16 tons for 10 pts of PPD that an AC10 can do for 12? And a pair of 5's goes through a lot of ammo, adding still more tonnage.

Or even better, why not run Gauss and get 15 points of PPD, at longer range, for 15 tons?

The 5's play more natural for me. Waiting on the 10's ROF drives me nuts, and at range the 10's slow-moving slug seems to drop funky.

The Gauss' "hold-and-release" firing mechanism is a little much for me to execute in a heated fur ball. And it explodes.

Anyway, I just wanted to get some other peoples thoughts on the matter. Do you think 2xAC5 is a viable build? Or should I just suck it up and get good with a 10 or Gauss?

#2 Kuaron

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 02:50 PM

You can compare, for example, here:

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

You see:
2 AC5 vs. 1 AC10 is
+33 % weight (and one hardpoint and crit slot…), but you get
+50 % DPS and almost +20 % projectile speed and more range

So yes, it’s not some mysterious irrational feeling, it’s obviously worth it by numbers.

Sometimes you still want to stick to AC10s, either because of limited hardpoints or to maximize alpha, adjust the reload time with the other weapons you have and torso twist between the volleys.

#3 Wintersdark

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 03:39 PM

View PostKuaron, on 30 November 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

You can compare, for example, here:

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

You see:
2 AC5 vs. 1 AC10 is
+33 % weight (and one hardpoint and crit slot…), but you get
+50 % DPS and almost +20 % projectile speed and more range

So yes, it’s not some mysterious irrational feeling, it’s obviously worth it by numbers.

Sometimes you still want to stick to AC10s, either because of limited hardpoints or to maximize alpha, adjust the reload time with the other weapons you have and torso twist between the volleys.

yup.

Generally, spending more tons on more, smaller AC's is worthwhile. In addition, 10's are notorious for being a bad middle ground - they're so close to a Gauss Rifle in tonnage and size, but fire at an extremely annoying 2.5s cooldown (or thereabouts if they've been changed lately), they have very slow projectile speed, and mediocre range.

It's almost always better to take either 2x5 if you can, or a gauss rifle as a result - either way, you get range, accuracy via projectile speed, etc...

10's have always been kind of a mediocre option when all is said and done.

On the other hand, these days 10's do have the advantage of much better ammo/ton, so if you're tonnage constrained and can't run a GR or 2x5, you can be even more tonnage/slot efficient due to being able to bring far less ammo than a 2x5 setup.

#4 stealthraccoon

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 08:37 PM

HBK does a good job with dual AC5, or the TBT-7K too - I rarely venture beyond 50 tons, and I do love my AC10, but I agree the dual AC5's is a bunch of fun and I've turned out some great games.

#5 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 09:06 AM

I really wished IS had their UAC10... :)

And with the dual AC5, option to fire as one or chain fire to rattle cages.

#6 Mad Ox

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 10:54 AM

Funny been comparing AC10 vs 2 AC5 recently myself. Running Shadow Hawks 1 with AC10 (Grey Death) and 2 UAC5 (5M).

Both seem to be around the same in terms of usefulness, average game but 2 AC5's seem to be more versatile with its longer range faster fire rate gives it just the oomph to out do single AC10.

Oh and JJ's is a nice boost too.

#7 Roughneck45

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 11:12 AM

IMO its the only way to use an AC5. If you are making a build that only uses one you should upgrade it to a UAC.

#8 TercieI

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 11:23 AM

View PostRoughneck45, on 01 December 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

IMO its the only way to use an AC5. If you are making a build that only uses one you should upgrade it to a UAC.


IMO, even a single UAC/5 says you should be looking for another option. The only ballistics that one of really works for are the Gauss rifle and the AC/20, maybe the AC/10 if you're locked out of the others for some reason.

#9 Insanity09

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 10:50 PM

I would say, without more information, there is no reason why either dual ac5s or an ac10 would not work. I personally tend to find that uac5/ac5 is preferable because it does give a chance at decent range, but otoh, I've started to love the punch from my hbk-g's ac20, so unless the ac5s are in the same location (due to convergence), care about punch might lean you towards the ac10. Shrug.

Unlike Terciel above, I find that if I'm short on tonnage, a single uac5 might be an acceptable substitute over an ac10. Two quick shots are the same damage, and you save a couple tons to be used elsewhere (you do usually need a bit more ammo). Yes, you might jam, but that is often taken care of by simply being back in cover for a moment. Anyhow...

It all depends on play style and mech capabilities/build. For another month of two, quirks might suggest a path (or generic ballistic quirks might not). If you are in a reasonably quick mech accel/decel wise, a fast peeker or poptart, the uac is probably the wrong choice. If you vastly prefer to keep enemies at arms length, the ac20 is probably the wrong answer. If you have plenty of tonnage for ammo and the gun, and are great at prepping your shots with good aim, the gauss might work best. Missed shots on 20's and gauss tend to hurt (due to longer cds and limited ammo). The ac10 is kinda the middle ground in all this (except for ammo efficiency) which for many people means they don't like it (I'm neutral).
What build do you want?

(pgi really needs to fix it so ac ammo is standard at 160 points per ton (80 shot ac2, 32 ac5, 16 ac10, 8 ac20, uac5 ammo might remain different since it functions a bit differently, so leave that at 30?)

#10 Reverend Herring

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 11:16 PM

I never liked the bigger AC:s because of their low range, slow projectile speed and terrible RoF. For me, the sweet spot has been 2AC5's. Or four if tonnage/slots/hardpoints admits it. For some reason I do a lot better for exmple in a MAD-3R with 2 AC5's than the same with 3 AC5's. On the other hand, I do better with Sleipnir with 4 AC5's than I do with a Cyclops with 3 AC5's. Strange really..

Edit: MAD-3R, not 5R...

Edited by Reverend Herring, 13 December 2016 - 09:33 PM.


#11 Orion Leftwind

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 09:23 AM

View PostReverend Herring, on 12 December 2016 - 11:16 PM, said:

I never liked the bigger AC:s because of their low range, slow projectile speed and terrible RoF. For me, the sweet spot has been 2AC5's. Or four if tonnage/slots/hardpoints admits it. For some reason I do a lot better for exmple in a MAD-5R with 2 AC5's than the same with 3 AC5's. On the other hand, I do better with Sleipnir with 4 AC5's than I do with a Cyclops with 3 AC5's. Strange really..


I have the same experience with the MAD-5R

While 3 AC/5's are great on paper, that 3rd mount is so low (barely above arm level) that it makes getting all 3 rounds down range and on the same location difficult. The low mount also make hill humping harder, those 2 high mounts make it simple to peek and shoot, not so much with the low mount.

#12 N a p e s

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 12:02 PM

I've always generally preferred a single big AC versus spamming lighter variants. From a pure DPS perspective I get that it makes sense it's just doesn't usually work out very well for me, few exceptions aside.

It may be the fact that lower cooldown times force me to stare at the target a bit more than I'm comfortable with and that my steady aim on moving targets is pretty average, at least compared to some of the twitch reflex shots that I seem to be able to pull off.

#13 Navy Sixes

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 08:01 AM

View PostOrion Leftwind, on 13 December 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:


I have the same experience with the MAD-5R

While 3 AC/5's are great on paper, that 3rd mount is so low (barely above arm level) that it makes getting all 3 rounds down range and on the same location difficult. The low mount also make hill humping harder, those 2 high mounts make it simple to peek and shoot, not so much with the low mount.

This is the very build I had planned out in Smurfy's, but abandoned for the very same reason. I had hoped the 3-ballistic geometry would arrange in a cluster on that high RT mount. As you said, it is frustratingly not so.

Once I'd settled on 2xAC5, the 5M looked like a better bet.





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