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#1 DGTLDaemon

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:38 PM

OK, I've been wanting to ask this question for a long time, because after spending almost a year in MWO, there's something I still fail to understand about this game's community. I personally come from an RPG background, and have played a variety of games of this genre over the years - from classic isometric RPGs like Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment, to action/RPGs like Diablo and Dark Souls, and all the way to "hybrids" like Mass Effect and Deus Ex. In all those games, there was some sort of a character development system present, which, in combination with the inventory/equipment system, allowed you to "build" your character in a way that would make it effective under the specific game rules while at the same time suiting your personal preferences. And as far as I can remember, trying to build your character in an optimum way has never been frowned upon in any gaming community I was ever engaged in. Well, if you became overzealous with your optimizations, you could earn yourself a nickname of a "power gamer", but that was not necessarily a bad thing :) However, MWO is the first game in my experience where any attempt to look at the available options, analyze the current game rules, and try to build your "character" (or, in this case, your mech) in a meaningful way rather than slap a random selection of weapons and gear all over it is met with an almost universal hatred. The last such thing that actually prompted this post from me was a reply in a thread where we discussed possible MC costs of respeccing under the new skill system:

View PostTycho von Gagern, on 06 December 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

The more I think about it, the more okay I am with PGI soaking the "meta chasers" who will constantly want to respec for "optimization" after each balance pass.


And this is what I've seen a million times on this forum. Trying to build your mechs in an optimum, meaningful, performance-oriented way that is consistent with the current state of the game rules? Then you need to be punished for that, because... Because what? All I hear is that "meta ******" and "meta chasers" are "ruining the game for everybody else". But why? What is so objectionable about using the customization options that are an integral part of this game to achieve the desired performance? I know that I'm starting a potential flame war here, but this is an honest question. I am truly baffled here. Can someone from the anti-meta crowd at least try to explain why you hate meta builds and meta gamers so much? Or is it some sort of underlying, self-evident concept of MWO that doesn't warrant an explanation?

#2 Tristan Winter

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:46 PM

Historically speaking, the hate of min-maxing stems from the tabletop and pen and paper RPG communities. Even playing Warhammer 40,000 in the early 90's, you would get really dirty looks if you tried to min-max your army to the point where it barely resembled lore anymore. You would get called 'cheesy'. A typical 'cheesy' army was the Imperial Guard (which is basically supposed to be like a Soviet Army. Lots of expendable tanks and infantry) with as few soldiers (Guardsmen) as possible, and as many lascannons (powerful support weapons) as possible. So instead of fielding a sea of expandable soldiers, you ended up with a small concentration of laservomit. It was very effective, but very boring and completely counter to the idea of the Imperial Guard in lore.
(I'm not saying it originated in the 90's, I'm just saying that it goes back several decades. The above is an example from 2nd edition Warhammer 40,000 tabletop)

Also in pen-and-paper RPG, the idea of doing anything possible to win is frowned upon by many. The ideal (in many people's minds) is to create interesting characters that are true to the lore of the universe. People who try to make a character that is as powerful as possible are referred to as 'munchkins'. In the neckbeard community, being called a munchkin will often lead to fist fights and knife attacks. Sometimes, tables are flipped.

Posted Image


Edited by Tristan Winter, 06 December 2016 - 11:47 PM.


#3 DGTLDaemon

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:56 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 06 December 2016 - 11:46 PM, said:

Historically speaking, the hate of min-maxing stems from the tabletop and pen and paper RPG communities.

Thank you :) If this is a tabletop thing, that explains a lot. I have no PnP background, so this aspect of PnP mentality was unknown to me. In the games that I've played, the term "meta gaming" usually referred to using knowledge external to the game to enhance your performance (for instance, rushing to a certain location from the start of the game to pick up some high-level gear that you shouldn't know about yet) rather than min-maxing and optimization. Live and learn :) Once again, thanks for the insight.

#4 Karl Streiger

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:57 PM

I think almost every start his "carrer" as min/maxer. My first BattleMechs in TT were min/maxed chassis that had almost nothing in common with the "hull" (Consider a Splash Dragon with several CStreak Missile Launcher)

After some years i tried to keep the character true but min/max it out AS7-K as a premier example.

The third step is keeping the Mechs in stock but creating your army as you like it. (one Gauss Fafnir Variant, Hauptmann A, + Hauptmann B and HGN-732)
The final and for many guys the first step is to take what you were given. (Random Assignment)

I think min/maxing is cool for QP Solaris Style combat - but to be forced to use pre-designed Combat Drop Decks in FW would be much better.

#5 Requiemking

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:58 PM

The main reason people hate "meta chasers" around here is because, as is our experience, these sorts of people tend to get in the way of having a balanced game were all the mechs can have a fair shot at victory. Take, for example, the Kodiak 3. For months after the thing's release, it was OP as hell. Naturally, people wanted it nerfed to make the game balanced. However, the "meta chasers" constantly obstructed this, making several people quite angry.

#6 Wecx

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:59 PM

View PostDGTLDaemon, on 06 December 2016 - 11:38 PM, said:

OK, I've been wanting to ask this question for a long time, because after spending almost a year in MWO, there's something I still fail to understand about this game's community. I personally come from an RPG background, and have played a variety of games of this genre over the years - from classic isometric RPGs like Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment, to action/RPGs like Diablo and Dark Souls, and all the way to "hybrids" like Mass Effect and Deus Ex. In all those games, there was some sort of a character development system present, which, in combination with the inventory/equipment system, allowed you to "build" your character in a way that would make it effective under the specific game rules while at the same time suiting your personal preferences. And as far as I can remember, trying to build your character in an optimum way has never been frowned upon in any gaming community I was ever engaged in. Well, if you became overzealous with your optimizations, you could earn yourself a nickname of a "power gamer", but that was not necessarily a bad thing Posted Image However, MWO is the first game in my experience where any attempt to look at the available options, analyze the current game rules, and try to build your "character" (or, in this case, your mech) in a meaningful way rather than slap a random selection of weapons and gear all over it is met with an almost universal hatred. The last such thing that actually prompted this post from me was a reply in a thread where we discussed possible MC costs of respeccing under the new skill system:



And this is what I've seen a million times on this forum. Trying to build your mechs in an optimum, meaningful, performance-oriented way that is consistent with the current state of the game rules? Then you need to be punished for that, because... Because what? All I hear is that "meta ******" and "meta chasers" are "ruining the game for everybody else". But why? What is so objectionable about using the customization options that are an integral part of this game to achieve the desired performance? I know that I'm starting a potential flame war here, but this is an honest question. I am truly baffled here. Can someone from the anti-meta crowd at least try to explain why you hate meta builds and meta gamers so much? Or is it some sort of underlying, self-evident concept of MWO that doesn't warrant an explanation?


The current Meta-builds are no fun! Trying to stay far away as possible with PPCs is just not fun. Infact it reminds me nothing of the Battle-tech universe that i love. I jumped on MWO yesterday after a long hiatus and this is what i encountered.

First game, on canyan, i jumped in my Hunchie, and on conquest my entire team was trying to pop tart so hard in a big ball. They slowly inched further and further to the corner of the map while all the control points were taken. Soon we lost because everybody was surrounded on the edge of the map. (I died early because i actually attempted to take theta on my own).

Second game, on mining, i jumped in my ER Small gargoyle. I thought to myself, this will be glorious (because it was skirmish).
Again my team has PPCs, ER Large Lasers, LRMs. I push torward the center with my team. As the battle progresses my teammates slowly get further and further from the fight almost to the point of being back at the starting zone! I stay in the middle hiding in a corner as the enemy team passes by and end my life.

Third game, i grab my shadow cat and load up on ppcs, i had to join the meta!
Polar highlands here i go! What do you know it took till the 9 minute mark for the battle to begin! I was the only one shooting at the enemy, and lucky for me everybody on the other team had LRMs and ER Large Lasers, so it was super easy.

The battle ended at 3 minutes, and we won because i plugged away 800+ damage in my shadow cat.

So anyway the META doesn't feel like battletech to me, just to many people concerned about their stats.

#7 Tristan Winter

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:59 PM

View PostDGTLDaemon, on 06 December 2016 - 11:38 PM, said:

I am truly baffled here. Can someone from the anti-meta crowd at least try to explain why you hate meta builds and meta gamers so much? Or is it some sort of underlying, self-evident concept of MWO that doesn't warrant an explanation?

Think of it like this. The more you're attached to a fictional universe, like Battletech or Star Wars or Warhammer 40,000, the more nostalgia is involved. When people diverge from your perception of what that universe should be, it interferes with your nostalgia.

Imagine that you're playing a Star Wars MMORPG and the most powerful characters in the game are actually Jedi Masters wielding grenade launchers and flying around with jetpacks. Or imagine that Ewok berzerkers are the most powerful melee characters in the game, and those warhammer-wielding Ewok berzerkers are cutting through Sith Lords like raging bulls through circus clowns. This would interfere with your nostalgia, and it would ruin your immersion, because it wouldn't feel like Star Wars.

Similarly, when people are min-maxing in MWO, it often involves builds that don't resemble anything from lore, and it may involve an attitude towards mechs that don't fit the Battletech universe. For example, some people strip their arms of armour and equip STD engines so they can play sword-and-board, sacrifcing one half of their torso while keeping all their weapons in the other half. This cavalier attitude towards components doesn't really fit the Battletech lore, because mechs are supposed to be extremely valuable and you really don't want to lose both arms and a side torso every time someone sneezes at you. Some mechs are supposed to be centuries old. They're really valuable. And when you completely change the weapon loadouts, they cease to resemble the mechs people recognize from lore. It's like taking an AT-AT walker from Star Wars and replacing the legs with monster truck wheels, because that's more effective.

Oh, and also, there's the issue of some builds in MWO being actually easy mode. If everyone ran meta-builds, there would be zero variation in the game. Every assault mech would be a KDK-3, every light mech would be an ACH or Jenner IIC. We would see 6-7 different mechs in every battle, in a game where there are actually several hundred different mechs to choose from. That's dull. (I'm exaggerating here, but you get the idea)

#8 RestosIII

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:02 AM

I run almost exclusively lore builds, because I'm insane and have a death wish, so my hatred for meta builds is a mixture of jealousy, and despising how efficient said builds are when used. Watching 2 Gauss+1 PPC builds make me feel dirty, even if it's on someone else's mech, just because it'll ruin someone's day if it hits them, with no real counter besides positioning. Yes, I am saying that I call being an expert in the Mechlab as being cheap. Same reason I resize rushing in RTS games. Sure, it works, and has the highest probability of success, but it makes it boring. Everyone should get on my level and run lore builds in QP.

That, and take things like the PPCs out of the arms of a Warhammer, and you've ruined the mech completely.

Posted Image

Edit: Jesus my spelling is bad when I'm posting on a phone at 3 AM.

Edited by RestosIII, 07 December 2016 - 11:47 AM.


#9 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:03 AM

A furthering of the above background post, in relation to the context of MWO specifically, is that the current meta builds thrive on inflicting as much pinpoint damage as possible in the shortest space of time. In other words, these current meta builds are designed to cripple mechs in one or two salvos. This drives the time to kill to uncomfortably low levels for a game that not only lacks respawns, but a game that comes from a source known for the slow, grinding death of your machine as its parts get blown off around you.

Meta isn't necessarily bad, mind you. However, I would be quick to point to other popular online games that get established metas. LoL, for an example, has metas that develop over a season. It will inevitably happen. However, these meta builds take time and skill throughout the course of a game to build up your characters in such a way as to optimize their capabilities. Meanwhile, in MWO, you drop into the match already optimized from the get go. Further, while people might whine and gnash their teeth over the idea of changes that might rock the meta in MWO, in many healthy games, again including LoL, each season brings often dramatic changes to the way things work. The intention is to break up the meta. To force people to "relearn and rediscover."

Regular change keeps things fresh. It helps keep the longevity. It provides fresh opportunities and new beginnings. A stale, unchanging meta, on the other hand, is extremely unhealthy for the longevity of a game.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 07 December 2016 - 12:05 AM.


#10 Wecx

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:04 AM

View PostTristan Winter, on 06 December 2016 - 11:59 PM, said:

Think of it like this. The more you're attached to a fictional universe, like Battletech or Star Wars or Warhammer 40,000, the more nostalgia is involved. When people diverge from your perception of what that universe should be, it interferes with your nostalgia.

Imagine that you're playing a Star Wars MMORPG and the most powerful characters in the game are actually Jedi Masters wielding grenade launchers and flying around with jetpacks. Or imagine that Ewok berzerkers are the most powerful melee characters in the game, and those warhammer-wielding Ewok berzerkers are cutting through Sith Lords like raging bulls through circus clowns. This would interfere with your nostalgia, and it would ruin your immersion, because it wouldn't feel like Star Wars.

Similarly, when people are min-maxing in MWO, it often involves builds that don't resemble anything from lore, and it may involve an attitude towards mechs that don't fit the Battletech universe. For example, some people strip their arms of armour and equip STD engines so they can play sword-and-board, sacrifcing one half of their torso while keeping all their weapons in the other half. This cavalier attitude towards components doesn't really fit the Battletech lore, because mechs are supposed to be extremely valuable and you really don't want to lose both arms and a side torso every time someone sneezes at you. Some mechs are supposed to be centuries old. They're really valuable. And when you completely change the weapon loadouts, they cease to resemble the mechs people recognize from lore. It's like taking an AT-AT walker from Star Wars and replacing the legs with monster truck wheels, because that's more effective.

Oh, and also, there's the issue of some builds in MWO being actually easy mode. If everyone ran meta-builds, there would be zero variation in the game. Every assault mech would be a KDK-3, every light mech would be an ACH or Jenner IIC. We would see 6-7 different mechs in every battle, in a game where there are actually several hundred different mechs to choose from. That's dull. (I'm exaggerating here, but you get the idea)


This is exactly how i feel.

#11 Requiemking

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:05 AM

View PostRestosIII, on 07 December 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:

I run almost exclusively lore buds, because I'm insane and have a death wish, so my hatred for meta builds is a mixture of jealousy, and despising how efficient said builds are when used. Watching 2 Gauss+1 PPC builds make me feel dirty, even if it's on someone else's mech, just because it'll ruin someone's day if it hits them, with no real counter besides positioning. Yes, I am saying that I call being an expert in the Mechlab as being cheap. Same reason I resize rushing in RTS games. Sure, it works, and has the highest probability of success, but it makes it boring. Everyone should get on my level and run lore builds in QP.

That, and take things like the PPCs out of the arms of a Warhammer, and you've ruined the mech completely.

Posted Image

Although, some mechs are pretty optimal for the current Meta right out of the gate. Highlander IIC-A anyone?

#12 The Unstoppable Puggernaut

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:11 AM

There should be a button on every mech (in mech bay) that says "Default". Clicking this should select the lore build. With the lore build you should be rewarded +20% c-bills at the end of the match.

This would at least give people a reason to not only lessen the meta designs but also reward those who stick to lore.

#13 RestosIII

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:13 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 07 December 2016 - 12:05 AM, said:

Although, some mechs are pretty optimal for the current Meta right out of the gate. Highlander IIC-A anyone?


I'd rather not use one of PGI's magical made-up variants, especially an IIC, thank you very much.

#14 Wecx

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:15 AM

View PostRestosIII, on 07 December 2016 - 12:13 AM, said:

I'd rather not use one of PGI's magical made-up variants, especially an IIC, thank you very much.


The awesome would fit the META as a stock build heh.

#15 DGTLDaemon

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:16 AM

View PostThe Unstoppable Puggernaut, on 07 December 2016 - 12:11 AM, said:

There should be a button on every mech (in mech bay) that says "Default". Clicking this should select the lore build. With the lore build you should be rewarded +20% c-bills at the end of the match.

This would at least give people a reason to not only lessen the meta designs but also reward those who stick to lore.

We are deviating from the topic here, but after trying out stock mechs in a tournament we ran in our unit, I'd rather have a separate "stock mode" in QP as opposed to a "full customization mode". I'm not sure if mixing stock builds and custom builds is wise, even with bonuses :)

#16 Requiemking

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:16 AM

View PostRestosIII, on 07 December 2016 - 12:13 AM, said:

I'd rather not use one of PGI's magical made-up variants, especially an IIC, thank you very much.

Ok then. Nova Prime. Laservomit for days.

#17 RestosIII

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:22 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 07 December 2016 - 12:16 AM, said:

Ok then. Nova Prime. Laservomit for days.


I wouldn't say days. Maybe 5 seconds. But it is one of the better ones. Adder Prime and LBK Prime are good contenders as well. But a true star is the Nova S. 6 MPLas+4 MGs? Yes please. But on the other hand... there are things like, well, the entire ACH lore line, or the Ice Ferret. Or the Mist Lynx A.

#18 Requiemking

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:23 AM

View PostWecx, on 07 December 2016 - 12:15 AM, said:


The awesome would fit the META as a stock build heh.

Well, only two of them(8Q and 9M).

#19 Kasumi Sumika

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:23 AM

View PostRestosIII, on 07 December 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:

That, and take things like the PPCs out of the arms of a Warhammer, and you've ruined the mech completely.


Everytime I seen Whammy without it's weapons on arms or Not put PPCs in arms, it's makes me sad.

Posted Image

#20 Requiemking

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:24 AM

View PostRestosIII, on 07 December 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:

I wouldn't say days. Maybe 5 seconds. But it is one of the better ones. Adder Prime and LBK Prime are good contenders as well. But a true star is the Nova S. 6 MPLas+4 MGs? Yes please. But on the other hand... there are things like, well, the entire ACH lore line, or the Ice Ferret. Or the Mist Lynx A.

Every Dragon ever. Also, LOCUSTS.

EDIT:can't forget the Firestarter either.

Edited by Requiemking, 07 December 2016 - 12:24 AM.






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