95 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

davoodoo, on 07 December 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Want to incentivize non boat builds??

Throw in 75% dmg increase with 50%(or scaling) heat increase for lasers for anything thats bigger than light.
You packed only 2 lpls?? ok then but theyll hit like ac20 and still overheat you.

this may have unseen adverse side effects,

PhoenixFire55, on 07 December 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

Srsly. Why can't you just let people play the game with loadouts they want and do the same yourself? ...

im just offering a solution, to what i feel maybe a problem in the future,
and doing such offer a solution to help Mixed builds as to set them apart from boats,

[N0MAD]

Andi Nagasia, on 07 December 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

this may have unseen adverse side effects,


im just offering a solution, to what i feel maybe a problem in the future,
and doing such offer a solution to help Mixed builds as to set them apart from boats,

Your idea goes down the line PGI takes complicated/convulted, wana seriously stop boating use fixed hard points similar to how MW4 did it, cant stick an AC20 into an MG slot or a Large laser into a small laser slot, this also gives different variants a use.
How long have people been suggesting this?.

[FupDup]

N0MAD, on 07 December 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:

Your idea goes down the line PGI takes complicated/convulted, wana seriously stop boating use fixed hard points similar to how MW4 did it, cant stick an AC20 into an MG slot or a Large laser into a small laser slot, this also gives different variants a use.
How long have people been suggesting this?.

That doesn't stop boating though, at least not in general. That just means you have to pick SPECIFIC MECHS for boating the big guns.

It also doesn't address the boating of small guns.

The one thing that sized hardpoints do is differentiate mechs/variants in a similar way as engine caps, JJs, ECM, quirks, etc (which is fine). Sized hardpoints do NOT balance weapons or do anything about boating.

[N0MAD]

FupDup, on 07 December 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

That doesn't stop boating though, at least not in general. That just means you have to pick SPECIFIC MECHS for boating the big guns.

It also doesn't address the boating of small guns.

The one thing that sized hardpoints do is differentiate mechs/variants in a similar way as engine caps, JJs, ECM, quirks, etc (which is fine). Sized hardpoints do NOT balance weapons or do anything about boating.

How do you boat large lasers on a variant that has say 4 medium laser slots?, wasnt talking about weapon balance here either, but it definately stops boating on a variant that say has 3 mediun lasers and 3 small lasers, you dont get a 6 medium or 6 large laser boat.

[cazidin]

FupDup, on 07 December 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

That doesn't stop boating though, at least not in general. That just means you have to pick SPECIFIC MECHS for boating the big guns.

It also doesn't address the boating of small guns.

The one thing that sized hardpoints do is differentiate mechs/variants in a similar way as engine caps, JJs, ECM, quirks, etc (which is fine). Sized hardpoints do NOT balance weapons or do anything about boating.

Realistically, the ONLY way for PGI to simply limit boating would be to institute a limit on how many of X weapons a mech can carry at one time but why would you want that? Not you, specifically, but anyone else.

[FupDup]

N0MAD, on 07 December 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

How do you boat large lasers on a variant that has say 4 medium laser slots?

By picking a different variant. You don't HAVE to pick the variant with the smallest hardpoint sizes. You can, like, only choose to play the variant with the biggest stock guns.

[N0MAD]

somedood, on 07 December 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

I'm sure they can just make specializing have diminishing returns so that the deeper you get into a tree the nodes start to cost more. The more you specialize your energy heat reduction the less able to are to add durability or movement based quirks so you start to become a glass cannon.

This is a very sound idea

[cazidin]

FupDup, on 07 December 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

By picking a different variant. You don't HAVE to pick the variant with the smallest hardpoint sizes. You can, like, only choose to play the variant with the biggest stock guns.

N0mad, you really should pay attention to what FupDup is saying here. Sized hardpoints MAY mitigate boating, as it is now, but it introduces a different kind of boating and a new meta game. Which variant of which mech has X hardpoint of Y size to use as many of A or B weapons that I want? That's one of the first things I did when playing MW4:Mercs, Mektek, mind you. I looked for the mechs that had the most optimal arrangement and size of hardpoints.

[N0MAD]

FupDup, on 07 December 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

By picking a different variant. You don't HAVE to pick the variant with the smallest hardpoint sizes. You can, like, only choose to play the variant with the biggest stock guns.

Generally variants with big stock guns have less gun mounts.

[FupDup]

N0MAD, on 07 December 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

Generally variants with big stock guns have less gun mounts.

For big guns, you don't need a large quantity...you can't always even use that quantity (e.g. max out at 2 PPCs, 2 Gauss, etc.).

It's also dependent on the specific mech/variant in question. Since stock builds are all over the place, there are 100% guaranteed to be at least a few variants that run the common meta builds of today (although I haven't made a list of which ones).

Again, the one thing that sized hardpoints do well is chassis/variant differentiation and reduced redundancy of mechs (more "uniqueness"). That's all fine and good. This game has too much redundancy/overlap as it is.

However, they don't do anything except that. They don't stop boating on mechs with the blessed stock hardpoints, and they don't balance the guns (this is something that people other than you try to use sized HP's for).

[N0MAD]

cazidin, on 07 December 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

N0mad, you really should pay attention to what FupDup is saying here. Sized hardpoints MAY mitigate boating, as it is now, but it introduces a different kind of boating and a new meta game. Which variant of which mech has X hardpoint of Y size to use as many of A or B weapons that I want? That's one of the first things I did when playing MW4:Mercs, Mektek, mind you. I looked for the mechs that had the most optimal arrangement and size of hardpoints.

Brother how does that differ for the way meta is now? now you select a variant that has optimum hardpoints and hardpoint placement and boat large weapons in those hardpoints, with sized hardpoints at least youre not boating all large weapons.

[Andi Nagasia]

you guys keep looking at this as a penalty to boating weapons,
please look at this as a buff to using less or mixed weapons,

if a NVA would normally get -10% Laser Heat Gen(if you take 12ERMLs)
this just starts off as a -30% Laser Heat Gen, that degrades to -10%(if you take 12ERMLs)
ill im proposing is a way to buff Mixed builds abit more, nothing lost only gained,

[L3mming2]

Lostdragon, on 07 December 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

How will the new skill tree favor boating even more?

i dont think there has to be done somthing about it. but yes it will favor boating even more.

example, now i use LPL,ML laser mechs (both with range mod's), with the new skill tree i will pick ore pulse ore regular lasers, cos investing 20 extra skill points out of 75 is to steep to consider bringing the 2 at the same time.

second example,
if i got a AC20 and SRM brawler, now i just equip CD mods for both as range is not very usfull for them.. with the new system i cant just pick only CD skill's i need to go thru the entire tree, wasting valuble skill points i could use for something else...

[Andi Nagasia]

as has been suggested before was the idea for cost to increase with higher levels,
Example
Laser Heat Gen Lv 1(-5%) = 1SkillPoint
Laser Heat Gen Lv 2(-5%) = 2SkillPoints
Laser Heat Gen Lv 3(-5%) = 3SkillPoints
Laser Heat Gen Lv 4(-5%) = 4SkillPoints
Laser Heat Gen Lv 5(-5%) = 5SkillPoints,

this would encourage people to maybe spread out their use,
perhaps this is better than my initial idea?

[50 50]

WarHippy, on 07 December 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

Well from other things that were said mechs that really needed their quirks are going to have them baked into their base stats not the skill tree, which adds to my suspicion it is the same tree for all mechs. I would love to be wrong, but we have something like 300-400+ different mechs in this game and we are to believe that each has their own unique tree? It would make sense that a mech that doesn't have any ballistic hard points would not have the option for ballistic skills, but at the same time if you accidentally select one all you have to do is respect(wasting time or money) to fix it.

The example shown at Mechcon was just a mockup with place holders for the demonstration.
I'd like to point out that while the Griffin was in the background there were options for Ballistic skills and while the Hellbringer was in the background it showed increases for Inner Sphere Autocannons.

At a minimum it would be easy enough to filter the skill trees according to hardpoint options so I expect that will be done. But it was also stated that the tree will be per mech and some mechs which are known to underperform will have a point of difference.
Exactly what that means is anyone's guess but with the removal of quirks I would expect these underperforming mechs to be more on par (Seeing as the quirks were one of the big problems in the first place).

My personal hope is that mechs do get some unique trees or skills based on the variants. The system looks like it will be easy to update and change anyway.

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 07 December 2016 - 06:03 PM, said:

as has been suggested before was the idea for cost to increase with higher levels,
Example
Laser Heat Gen Lv 1(-5%) = 1SkillPoint
Laser Heat Gen Lv 2(-5%) = 2SkillPoints
Laser Heat Gen Lv 3(-5%) = 3SkillPoints
Laser Heat Gen Lv 4(-5%) = 4SkillPoints
Laser Heat Gen Lv 5(-5%) = 5SkillPoints,

this would encourage people to maybe spread out their use,
perhaps this is better than my initial idea?

Doesn't really stop boating. If I'm boating, I have no use for bringing other weapon skills anyway. 15 of 75 to dedicate to firepower is fine, and even if it weren't, I would just leave it at Level 3 and boat anyway.

And you know what? I don't have a problem with boats. You make it harder to boat, and it becomes that much harder for an IS 'Mech to rival the firepower of a Clan 'Mech. It becomes that much harder for a Light to be useful. It becomes that much more pointless to have a 'Mech with a lot of guns (which makes Assaults kind of pointless, too).

[N0MAD]

I like the idea of a Plus/minus system myself.
Want +range then you get -damage for example.
You wana buff something up fine but something needs to suffer for it.

[Y E O N N E]

N0MAD, on 07 December 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

I like the idea of a Plus/minus system myself.
Want +range then you get -damage for example.
You wana buff something up fine but something needs to suffer for it.

AKA, trade-offs.

[davoodoo]

Andi Nagasia, on 07 December 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

this may have unseen adverse side effects,

Probably yes, but its numbers tweaking.

In worst case scenario you can slap -% heatsink effectiveness instead of heat generation to better balance it on heavier mechs.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Lostdragon, on 07 December 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

That is literally no different than how it works with modules now. If you are boating one primary weapon you can take range and CD modules, if you have two or more weapon types you have to make choices on which modules to take. If you are boating one weapon you may be able to take advantage of stacking quirks and modules or in the future skills for it that make it strong but you can never fully compensate for the weaker mechanics that popularly boated weapons have like short range, long CD, long burn duration, high heat, spread, etc.

Yes, it is no different, and one of the reasons why boating is so prevalent in the live client. Boats can maximize their effectiveness with a duration/velocity, cooldown and range module for their only weapon type, while mixed builds have to sacrifice maxing out a single weapon's effectiveness so that their other weapons get some kind of buff.

I don't see you guys complaining about mechs with mixed hardpoints having more powerful quirks than mechs with all Ballistic or Energy hardpoints, this is no different here. To those saying that a diminished skill would be less effective with boats, think of it like this, would you rather have a 5% cooldown bonus for all boated weapons (say 6 or 8 of them) or would you rather have only a single of those weapons have a 15% cooldown? This is what mixed builds deal with, and why it's ridiculous to say that it's unfair for boats.