50 replies to this topic

[Ironwithin]

BigScwerl, on 15 December 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:

Compare Hunchback to Hunchback IIC - nevermind the engine, just look at the default price on there.

One has (superior) endo and double heatsinks stock, the other doesn't. You can figure out which one is which.
Stupid comparison is stupid.

Edited by Ironwithin, 16 December 2016 - 11:34 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ghostbear1968, on 15 December 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

Funny, guess these type of players are the reason we as clan players, who pay more for there equipment, get limited more and more, if its weight or weapon range, and then i keep seeing so many IS units cheeting because PGI seems to be not able to stop them, really sad to see. But since i am a Loyalist, i will keep fighting IS, but i wont buy anything anymore as long as PGI cant make sure there is no cheeting going on, or at least increases the speed they deal with those guys, Sad enought that so many people rely on these tools, just because the cant pilot a Mech propperly

Chances are, most of the players you face are not cheating. The reality is balance does favor Clan mechs (price is really irrelevant, this isn't that type of game as it is PvP, and even so, Clan mechs don't really cost more than IS mechs when you consider all the upgrades required to go into IS mechs (DHS, endo, XL engines, etc)). But that being said, the power gap is not incredibly significant, but it is there. Clan loyalists have no reason to complain about balance.

[Willard Phule]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 December 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

Chances are, most of the players you face are not cheating. The reality is balance does favor Clan mechs (price is really irrelevant, this isn't that type of game as it is PvP, and even so, Clan mechs don't really cost more than IS mechs when you consider all the upgrades required to go into IS mechs (DHS, endo, XL engines, etc)). But that being said, the power gap is not incredibly significant, but it is there. Clan loyalists have no reason to complain about balance.

Let's talk about those upgrades, shall we?

First of all, we don't get to swap engines, period. XL or otherwise.
Secondly, we're stuck with this spazzfire UAC nonsense while you get single shot projectiles. Or our lack of quirks. Or the burn time on our lasers. Or our splash damage ERPPCs.

[Koniving]

BigScwerl, on 15 December 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:

Compare Hunchback to Hunchback IIC - nevermind the engine, just look at the default price on there.

Now...
Try to convert a Hunchback into an IS equivalent for a Hunchback IIC, or a Hunchback IIC into a Clan equivalent for a Hunchback.

If you are paying more for Clan, then the price for should be higher for the HBK-IIC to HBK conversion when totaling the parts.

However, after doing this for about 7 minutes I'm not done with the IS HBK to HBK IIC conversion and I'm already paying 1.4 million extra when comparing total prices. I'm not even done yet as I have yet to put in the XL 200 engine which is another 3 million 266 thousand 500 cbills. (I am comparing total prices of both the purchased 'Mech, and all changes to 'convert' it into the other 'Mech of their respective technological equivalents)

This is largely due to the fact that engines come at a 30-40% discount when they come with the mech, In fact all equipment comes with the 'Mech at a discount so the fewer the changes you have to do the better it is for your wallet. This said: The HBK IIC comes with XL engine and double heatsinks, automatically saving quite a bit of money as 'bought with mech' is usually 30% cheaper than 'bought in inventory'.

Now if we had a Hunchback 5 series instead of the 4 series, our prices would be more comparable and I'd probably be paying the same for both an IS and Clan HBK. Instead we have to upgrade.

It is through upgrading that IS players pay significantly more than Clan players in the long run.

In ones we don't have to upgrade, IS often can get cheaper than Clan players.

Fun note:
Take a SHK 2D and SHK 5M
Ignoring all hardpoints... Take a SHK 2D and convert into a 5M.
Now take a SHK 5M -- recounting all the prices from scratch except those that do not need to be changed -- and make it into a SHK 2D. No cheating or you'll miss the point.

An SHK 2D to 5M conversion costs just slightly over 4 million more cbills than a 5M to 2D conversion.
Even though you have exactly the same inventory in terms of number of each item in total... you spend a bit over 4 million more to get it by using the cheaper SHK 2D to get it all... than the more expensive 5M to get it... quite simply due to the fact that "if it comes with the mech, it is cheaper".

Edited by Koniving, 18 December 2016 - 10:02 AM.

[Natred]

Funny heat sinks supposedly got buffed for clan but I noticed no difference. 4 health per heat sink is a nerf for sure. Seems like my heat dissipation and rate seem to be the same as before. Maybe it's always been these numbers but they forget to announce it.

[Nighthawk513]

Natred, trust me, the heat sinks got buffed. Twas a glorious buff. And the lowered health only matters if they open your armor. Since clans basically don't get structure quirks, why does it really matter? The component will be gone soon enough anyway...

Unfortunately, said buff also lead to (to date) almost 50 separate "Clan OP" threads, none of which have said a single thing about the heatsink buff except for this thread.

Frankly, if they roll it down to 1.3 and redo the tonnage, I have a sneaking suspicion that this "massively op clan B*******" will disappear. Or at least become much more managable via their tonnage scale.

That said, it was nice to continue firing in clan mechs like the IS laser vomit can...

[Natred]

Yeah, I guess we get another 3 or 4 total heat limit. That's op? Lol

[Nighthawk513]

Many laser vomit builds that got off two alphas and were close to heat cap before can wait 2 seconds and get a third alpha off now. That's the difference between 100 burst damage and 150 burst.

My 2 PPC Gauss huntsman build was literal insanity to run before, now it is viable, and a staple of my drop decks unless it is a hot map.

The lower heat cap was one of the biggest things keeping clans in check, so they had to be careful firing the massive amount of weapons.

It had a similar effect to giving EVERY clan mech a -10 to -15% heat gen quirk. Given that the mechs were reasonably well balanced previously for faction play, that made a noticable difference. Which made everyone want to play them, so the mercs came over, the IS got stomped, and the crying began...

Dissipation is the same I think, so once you hit the heat cap, it is just as hard to cool off. But it is the third alpha you now get before said heat cap that made clans more powerful.

Edited by Nighthawk513, 19 December 2016 - 04:58 PM.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

reason why quick play feels way more enjoyable for me is because IS and CLAN mechs
are mixed in that mode.
I also wanted quick play maps integrated into FW, but as it looks the CLAN meta builds
dominating FWQP and FWINV mostly.Dont know what can be done against this.
At least they shoud only enable players to play FW
with 4 own,purchased(cbills or mc) ,customizable mechs.
That way it is garanted that new players have played at least 20 hours of quick play matches
and know where MWO really shines imo (or is more forgiving ).

Willard Phule, on 18 December 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

Let's talk about those upgrades, shall we?

First of all, we don't get to swap engines, period. XL or otherwise.
Secondly, we're stuck with this spazzfire UAC nonsense while you get single shot projectiles. Or our lack of quirks. Or the burn time on our lasers. Or our splash damage ERPPCs.

spazzfire UAC: tell that to KDK-3
splash ERPPC: i woud love to use these

Edited by SHRedo, 07 January 2017 - 09:44 AM.

[Insanity09]

Clans do have an technological edge, that is certain.
Does that make them OP? I'd say no.

Out of the shop, Clans pay more for their mechs, but as Koniving pointed out (fantastic post there), customizing to make a decent mech means that IS often pays more overall. Either way that plays out, it is easy to ignore a cost difference, since a little persistent play will bridge any supposed cbill gap.

Statistically speaking, and theoretically, the skill levels between clan (and their mercs) and IS (and their mercs) should be more or less equivalent. Which means that the tech advantage becomes a deciding factor.

More significant is a population imbalance, if such exists. If the clans have more population (possibly due to the gypsy mercs), then the ramifications become significant. The simple ability to make more drops per unit time, even if some are ghost (especially if?), will overwhelm the opposition. Quite literally. That's simple math.
Add in the tech advantage, and the Clans will definitely seem to be winning a great majority of the time.
I've not seen actual population numbers, so I can't state for certain this is happening, though it does seem to be the case.

Even minor advantages in tech or population will have a large bearing over time.

Clearly, since lore wise it makes sense for the Clans to keep the tech edge (for now?), PGI should somehow encourage the population to shift in IS favor to counter that, but not so hugely that the Clans are plowed under by numbers. A difficult balancing act at best.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Insanity09, on 07 January 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

Clans do have an technological edge, that is certain.
Does that make them OP? I'd say no.

Out of the shop, Clans pay more for their mechs, but as Koniving pointed out (fantastic post there), customizing to make a decent mech means that IS often pays more overall. Either way that plays out, it is easy to ignore a cost difference, since a little persistent play will bridge any supposed cbill gap.

Statistically speaking, and theoretically, the skill levels between clan (and their mercs) and IS (and their mercs) should be more or less equivalent. Which means that the tech advantage becomes a deciding factor.

More significant is a population imbalance, if such exists. If the clans have more population (possibly due to the gypsy mercs), then the ramifications become significant. The simple ability to make more drops per unit time, even if some are ghost (especially if?), will overwhelm the opposition. Quite literally. That's simple math.
Add in the tech advantage, and the Clans will definitely seem to be winning a great majority of the time.
I've not seen actual population numbers, so I can't state for certain this is happening, though it does seem to be the case.

Even minor advantages in tech or population will have a large bearing over time.

Clearly, since lore wise it makes sense for the Clans to keep the tech edge (for now?), PGI should somehow encourage the population to shift in IS favor to counter that, but not so hugely that the Clans are plowed under by numbers. A difficult balancing act at best.

I do hve the answer for that! NO MORE MERCS ON CLAN SIDE!!! ONLY LOYALISTS!!!

Then you will see how many will, indeed stay clanners! Most big units will want to be mercs, and will switch to IS, in a heartbeat.

[Insanity09]

While from a purely lore standpoint, removing mercs from the clans sounds great, I suspect that sort of heavy handed change would create a serious population imbalance.
The only way that wouldn't be an issue would be if some (or many?) of the mercs decided to switch to loyalist with one of the clans.

As an alternative, I wonder if it would be feasible to change the way mercs worked a little bit. The one small change, possibly with a significant impact, would be that they would be designated as IS or Clan mercs. They could continue to switch specific contracts within their chosen sphere, but they could no longer waffle between IS and Clan as far as faction warfare.
The short term impact might be negligible, but longer term it might allow for easier balancing efforts.

[RaptorCWS]

Jack Spade Ward, on 09 January 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

I do hve the answer for that! NO MORE MERCS ON CLAN SIDE!!! ONLY LOYALISTS!!!

Then you will see how many will, indeed stay clanners! Most big units will want to be mercs, and will switch to IS, in a heartbeat.

why.
what do you think they only play mercs for the cbills? then why are so many falcon and now smoke jag? why not liao and marik for their bonus? most will just play clan loyalist after that. the perk of being a merc was switching tech at will not roleplaying as a merc.

[Willard Phule]

SHRedo, on 07 January 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

reason why quick play feels way more enjoyable for me is because IS and CLAN mechs
are mixed in that mode.
I also wanted quick play maps integrated into FW, but as it looks the CLAN meta builds
dominating FWQP and FWINV mostly.Dont know what can be done against this.
At least they shoud only enable players to play FW
with 4 own,purchased(cbills or mc) ,customizable mechs.
That way it is garanted that new players have played at least 20 hours of quick play matches
and know where MWO really shines imo (or is more forgiving ).


spazzfire UAC: tell that to KDK-3
splash ERPPC: i woud love to use these

Whereas I would love to have single shot ACs and the ability to swap out engines. Not like that'll ever happen.

When will people start to realize that PGI's "balancing" has more to do with population control than it does with making equipment anywhere near "equal?"

Clans are OP because all the experienced players...solo or group....went clan. When that happens, a wave of nerfs and tweaks happen to drive the experienced players to the side with the new advantage. Happens every couple of months or so.

[Insanity09]

@ Willard Phule,

Where did you get the info that the Clans specifically have the ALL (your word)better players?
I find that interesting considering that many skilled people actually prefer a challenge, and considering that the tech advantage is with the clans, that would suggest the challenge would be playing IS.
How, btw, are we defining a "better player"?

How many of the better players currently on the clan side are actually mercs, not clan loyalists?

Does anyone actually have a current (active) population breakdown? Reliable?

[Drunk Canuck]

cplaxeman, on 13 December 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Give it a week and there wont be a IS planet on the map...

Then git gud

[Drunk Canuck]

Insanity09, on 11 January 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

@ Willard Phule,

Where did you get the info that the Clans specifically have the ALL (your word)better players?
I find that interesting considering that many skilled people actually prefer a challenge, and considering that the tech advantage is with the clans, that would suggest the challenge would be playing IS.
How, btw, are we defining a "better player"?

How many of the better players currently on the clan side are actually mercs, not clan loyalists?

Does anyone actually have a current (active) population breakdown? Reliable?

To be honest, there aren't many good Clan players, the only one's worth worrying about is Evil. And FWIW, I can safely say that most of 228th now is no longer playing Faction Play, our participation in it has dwindled due to the staleness and lack of challenge in playing the game mode when there is no proper team match making to be had. Most of us got tired of curb stomping bad Clan units and even worse pugs. IS keeps losing because of the excessive amounts of potato tier pugs and the lack of interest in playing consistently among IS units because of said pugs. If you can't field a team of 12 players from your own unit on IS, it is a futile attempt to beat a Clan team. Clans aren't OP, teamwork is.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 14 January 2017 - 12:42 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Insanity09, on 11 January 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

@ Willard Phule,

Where did you get the info that the Clans specifically have the ALL (your word)better players?
I find that interesting considering that many skilled people actually prefer a challenge, and considering that the tech advantage is with the clans, that would suggest the challenge would be playing IS.
How, btw, are we defining a "better player"?

How many of the better players currently on the clan side are actually mercs, not clan loyalists?

Does anyone actually have a current (active) population breakdown? Reliable?

Drunk Canuk said it best:

Drunk Canuck, on 14 January 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Clans aren't OP, teamwork is.

That's what I based my statement on. I don't tend to drop with groups, so I'm in the no matchmaker Potato Warfare like everyone else. IS potatoes vs Clan potatoes tends to end up with Clan on top. Not because our potatoes are better...but because the veterans that are dropping with them are.

Ever notice on a Clan stomp (think 48-12 score), the damage isn't spread evenly among the team? You'll have 3 or 4 above 1500, then have 4 or 5 below 500 damage with zero kills. That's the norm. Even less so for an IS team packed with potatoes.

[Insanity09]

Sigh. I'll make one more effort, Willard.

In post #34 you stated that ALL experienced players, solo or group (meaning unit?), went clan. Where did you get that information, or are you simply using unsupported hyperbole to make a vague point?

Do you have any factual information, as opposed to forum citations, to support that there are no longer any experienced (meaning skilled) players on the IS side? Is there true data mining (from PGI or elsewhere) showing that?

You do realize that the citation you used from Drunk Canuck to support your, ahem, argument was made by a person who then went on to say that there were not many good clan players?

I will re-state my position again. Whether the clans are OP or not is questionable. I say not, but they certainly have a tech advantage.
Teamwork is the most significant factor in determining who will win a match. That does NOT mean that other advantages do not come into play.
If, as is likely, teamwork (skill factor) is more or less equal between the factions, then a tech advantage becomes significant.
Population numbers will also be a telling matter. People, on the whole, tend to flock to the advantaged side, in mwo that is clan, so it is reasonable to expect that the clans will have a numerical advantage in addition to a technological. Dangerous.

Note: Statistically speaking, there is a subset in any population that will choose to play a disadvantaged side. For various reasons, this subset is often highly skilled. Thus, typical behavior patterns would indicate that a small, skilled portion of the mwo population will have chosen IS. Significant enough to make a difference? Arguable, but in the face of a large population imbalance, probably not.
Balance problems lead to population problems.

Per the faction leaderboards, the best units are mercenary. If many of the mercenary units are currently fighting with the clans, that does not mean that clan players, specifically clan loyalists, are of higher skill than IS, it indicates instead that the mercenaries are higher skill (than both IS and clan?). Mercenaries switch sides, it is one of their defining characteristics.

#1 on the loyalist leaderboards is currently IS, of House Liao. However, only 3 of the top 10 loyalists are IS, 7 are clan. If there were no skilled players for IS, IS presence at the top of the leaderboards would be impossible. The underrepresentation of IS at the top levels suggests that something is not balanced, however.

[DrMo0]

Clanners aren't OP - that isn't the issue. PGI just needs to fix a few simple things to make the game fair, honest, and not a waste of time.

Firstly I would like to say gg to PGI. Get the drop deck error and have to leave game because I can't play my mechs(multiple times, not just once). Pretty much screwed over IS with the new update(took away longtom, gave clanners more space to camp spawn, increased all lrms - clanners included) all the clanners who disagree and IS who disagree can just stop talking. Literally can't even play my mechs due to the fact of a drop deck error??? (Have to leave the game and then can't rejoin, even if I have 3 mechs left)?? Waste of time.

On the other note, Tier 1 and 2 players get dropped with new players who just started the game??? Make a training course so trial mechs and people who are Tier 4/3 so we don't lose half the system within a month. Also make it invalid for trial mechs to be in CW. - let the noobs stick with Quick play until they get a feel for the game and actually know what they're doing before getting thrown against MS or BNC.

Now lets get to one of the biggest problems. Spawn camping, no skill, back shooters. This isn't the old Mech Warrior way. Drop ships get blocked due to the new "gates" or "barriers" added into CW. If I remember correctly, Drop ships had more gun then usually most of the planet could even carry. 6-8(not sure the exact number) of LL's? What is this? Amateur hour? In mech warrior they should have indestructible turrets that have flamers or srms on them near spawn point to have a fair, none autistic, honest fight. Literally can't play one match without getting spawn camped unless I am in an organized twelve man using TS or discord, ect..

Lastly I'd like to touch up on the jump jet exploit. Pretty funny how every time you fight a clanner in CW or in quick play they have jj's and basically spam them while you shoot at them. Basically, while they are spamming their jj's and you shoot at them - all damage is transferred to the legs, which is total bs. If I shoot a mech in the ct while they are in the air, I expect to damage the CT not their fresh legs. No one goes for legs - unless you really like legging people.

Just fix these simple things to make the game better, not much to ask for, but it screws everyone ( not just myself ) over.
I can write PGI a twelve page essay on how they should fix these things, I am a scripter and coder so doing these things wouldn't be very hard to fix at all. Honestly just simple things that are just being ignored - for what reason we shall maybe never know??

I feel like I should make a youtube channel just for PGI to see how much these things screw people over. Maybe I will, but kinda don't wanna waste my time however since these things probably won't be changed. If they do get changed, then hey, good for you guys for actually listening to players who have been playing for many years.

Anyways, this message isn't to disrespect anyone or roast anyone. Just simple things that could make they game better, fair, and more fun for everyone.

Who doesn't like a challenge? Setting up the game to be an actual game and not just another 3D multiplayer shooter would be a good idea, but hey, this might not sound so "appealing" to people who spent $100's on the game. Whatever though, just an opinion. Don't get mad.

Edited by DrMo0, 15 January 2017 - 09:05 PM.