53 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

Alan Davion, on 27 December 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

And give the Clan players a reason to burn the forums down? Yeah, no. Bad, bad idea. Worst idea ever.

iie, simply make isXL = cXL but with different penalties than simply death w/loss of one side torso. IS would still take up 3 slots instead of 2 in each side torso but would have a higher heat/movement penalty.

[Ted Wayz]

I like what the OP says. What the current system also does not reflect is the Clan bidding system for the right to attack planets. Like government contracts the right to attack planets in many cases went to the lowest bidder, as in who would take the planet with the least amount of mechs.

This could be incorporated with the current system by saying the clans need to achieve victory conditions without losing "X" mechs. This way PGI can stick with their crappy non-lore based lance vs lance system, and not try so hard to balance something that gets more unbalanced with each quirk pass and mech release.

So PGI, gather some data and figure out a mech limit for the clans to achieve victory conditions.

Edited by Ted Wayz, 27 December 2016 - 05:31 PM.

[Luca M Pryde]

Bombast, on 27 December 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

That's an incredibly simplistic view of WWII Germany. And mostly not true.

But I wont derail the thread any further. Just thought I'd point that out.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot.

While numbers certainly did choke the Clans up, it's not what beat them. Both the Battle of Tukayyid and the Great Refusal were fought with Clan rules, with the Clan's chosen method of warfare. And Anastasius Focht and Victor Ian Steiner-Davion kicked your butts both times, fair and square.

Which means it's the Steiners who saved the Inner Sphere. FASA really liked capitalism.

They only fought on clan terms at a strategic level during bidding. In actual combat it was gangdamclan style fighting.

The IS clans (Jade Falcon and Wolf etc) then stopped this form of battle over the years except when fighting other clans.

Edited by Luca M Pryde, 27 December 2016 - 05:38 PM.

[Mystere]

Thor Sten, on 27 December 2016 - 04:57 PM, said:

My guess would be, because the average FPS-player can't handle fighting outnumbered.

Or outgunned.

That's the feeling I am getting anyway in all of these discussions.For all the high and mighty talk, apparently they'd choose the over-gunned side without hesitation, and it all lies with self glory instead of winning with the team. It's sad really if true.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 27 December 2016 - 06:38 PM, said:

Or outgunned.

That's the feeling I am getting anyway in all of these discussions.For all the high and mighty talk, apparently they'd choose the over-gunned side without hesitation, and it all lies with self glory instead of winning with the team. It's sad really if true.

I mean, you yourself are allied with the over-gunned side and have previously stated you do whatever it takes to win...

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

I mean, you yourself are allied with the over-gunned side and have previously stated you do whatever it takes to win...

It's a tag ... that can be easily changed. But I'm not bothering to do so because there really is no compelling reason given PGI's seemingly design methodology of just "winging it". But if PGI miraculously steps up to the plate and proves to be up to snuff, I just might do so.

Do not mistake it as something resembling a real life choice, nor misconstrue what I meant by "whatever it takes to win". <shrugs>

Edited by Mystere, 27 December 2016 - 07:11 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

I don't know how many here played Warhammer Online. There came a time in PvP where people figured out that you could just flip to the dominant side and you wouldn't even have to get off your horse to unlock the capitol. Nothing like seeing 200 plus people riding objective to objective with no opposition.

Then EA made the mistake of making people actually work. They changed the system to make objectives dynamic.

EZ mode off. People left in droves.

Be careful what you wish for. PGI is in a tenuous position where the wrong move could simultaneously not attract new people to FW while driving out the hard liners. They need to find a way to reward both.

[Thor Sten]

Mystere, on 27 December 2016 - 06:38 PM, said:

Or outgunned.

That's the feeling I am getting anyway in all of these discussions.For all the high and mighty talk, apparently they'd choose the over-gunned side without hesitation, and it all lies with self glory instead of winning with the team. It's sad really if true.

I was thinking less about "wishing to win" and more about the efficiency to handle a lot of different "variables" at once.

Anecdotal, but in my experience, simple maps* and simple game modes (Skirmish > EverythingElse) are opted for most often. This can't be simply "because it's the easier to win" because, after all, the enemy get's the same treatment. All there is, is less things to pay attention to. It's easier to play, not easier to win.

Being outnumbered is very similiar and would overwhelm a lot of players (myself probably included), making the seemingly ez mode Clan Tech either way more frustrating than anything else, or Clan Tech would need to get even more juiced up (and it would become hell for everybody, once good players get the handle on it).

[MeiSooHaityu]

Clan superior tech against IS superior numbers works in TT because the game can be tweaked for each engagement a bit better and the players that show up are all there to play.

A game like MWO with varying player skills, varying effectiveness of builds, and people going disco or AFK last minute, etc... all make balancing purely by numbers a bad idea IMO.

I think the way PGI is going about it is the best way for this game. Maybe they could try something different in a Clan expansion in MW5:Mercs or a follow-up title where it is a single player and story driven experience and the advantage by numbers could be more better tailored and controlled.

[Mystere]

Thor Sten, on 28 December 2016 - 03:57 AM, said:

Being outnumbered is very similiar and would overwhelm a lot of players (myself probably included), making the seemingly ez mode Clan Tech either way more frustrating than anything else, or Clan Tech would need to get even more juiced up (and it would become hell for everybody, once good players get the handle on it).

Now that's a perspective I don't recall ever seeing on these forums.

There is still hope.

[Mystere]

MeiSooHaityu, on 28 December 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

Clan superior tech against IS superior numbers works in TT because the game can be tweaked for each engagement a bit better and the players that show up are all there to play.

Hmm. Some people showing up in an MWO drop are not there to play?

MeiSooHaityu, on 28 December 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

A game like MWO with varying player skills, varying effectiveness of builds, and people going disco or AFK last minute, etc... all make balancing purely by numbers a bad idea IMO.

How exactly is that any different from today with "varying player skills, varying effectiveness of builds, and people going disco or AFK last minute, etc."?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mystere, on 28 December 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

Hmm. Some people showing up in an MWO drop are not there to play?

Generally people who come to a table top game and are scheduled to play, don't suddenly get there and say..."I change my mind, I'm not playing" and then the whole game needs to be re-evaluated. I'm sure it has happened, but realistically it isn't going to happen with any kind of notable frequency. It is easier in a game like MWO where a player drops into a match, and takes up a slot, but doesn't play (whether it is a dropped connection, crashed client, gets pulled away, or just says screw it and discos). Almost every game I play, somone seems to be disco for some reason (which takes up a valuable slot).

So yes, I would imagine people who bother to coordinate with their friends for a match, get their TT equipment, get in their car, and drive to a friends house is there to play and frequently a random person who drops into a match in MWO might not be as committed.

I think that is a fair assumption.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mystere, on 28 December 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

How exactly is that any different from today with "varying player skills, varying effectiveness of builds, and people going disco or AFK last minute, etc."?

Because in a 12 v 12 with sides roughly equal in tech, missing one guy isn't the end of the world. One guy missing is (in theory) less than 10% (roughly 9% or 8%) of your total force in numbers. Of course this varies on whether it is a light or an assault, but for sake of argument, we will say it is less than 10% reduction in force.

Now, lets balance for tech with numbers. Lets say IS 12 v Clan 8. Now if a clanner disconnects, that player more greatly affects balance. The clan force is now down by 13 or 14%. It skews the balance way more than if you started with an equal amount of players 12 v 12.

Of course the percentage is really just there to help visualize the effects of a disco more than anything, but it still helps paint a picture of how it can more greatly effect balance.

In a TT game, that can be accounted for on the fly by a GM (if somone had to leave in an emergency), but in a game like MWO where the rules and objectives are rigid, it makes it more devastating.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 28 December 2016 - 08:22 AM.

[Paigan]

Nice OP.
My simple solution for achieving balance with asymmetrical numbers while still having equal player numbers:
Don't balance IS by magically weird quirks, but give them more WAVES than Clan players. Even in Quickplay. Everywhere.
Not just more drop tonnage. WAVES.
When a Clanner can bring in 1 Kodiak, an IS player can bring 2, 3, 4 subsequent Atlasses in.

Plus:
- give Clans some restraints, maybe even punishement to force players a little bit to play more "clan like".
- give IS more tactical options like artillery, consumables, etc.

Games like StarCraft or AvP show that you can very well create a game with asymmetrical balance where every faction is attractive to play.
It just has to be done in a smart way.

Edited by Paigan, 28 December 2016 - 08:49 AM.