56 replies to this topic

[MovinTarget]

In many drops I hear people complain (IS side) about the range advantage that the Clans have..

For Pete's sake, stop looking at lasers and grab Guass and ER PPC...

1) They have the *EXACT* same range as their clan conterpart
2) Many IS mechs have good quirks for these (especially ER PPC) that make IS *SUPERIOR* to most clan mechs.
3) IS Guass is sturdier than Clan Gauss.

The reason these are considered the preferred trading weapon of "try-hards" or whatever you want to call the players that try to win, is because you can effectively poptart them or hill/side hump with them. Clan lasers may seem scary but learn to fire ER PPCs at range and you'll win trades versus most laser vomit because you don't have to focus a beam.

You need to learn:
Timing/rhythm to firing and recharging
How to lead a target (Its often harder for them to dodge if they are already moving.)

And finally, never stop moving yourself! Beam weapons are most effective when they can focus a component.

Build mechs that use these weapons well.

Drop in training grounds and practice your timing, poptarting ridge clearance, heat management and pinpoint accuracy.

[DevlinCognito]

It's this outside the box thinking that'll get you kicked from MW:O you cheeky Colonial, this is your last warning before you get your 'succesful Inner Sphere Unit' revoked Mr Movin! Don't you realise it's easier to whine and ***** than learn a new skill?!?

[MovinTarget]

DevlinCognito, on 27 December 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

It's this outside the box thinking that'll get you kicked from MW:O you cheeky Colonial, this is your last warning before you get your 'succesful Inner Sphere Unit' revoked Mr Movin! Don't you realise it's easier to whine and ***** than learn a new skill?!?

The only reason I think "outside the box" is because I can't find the dang thing to get in it!

[NobunagaReborn]

This is why most my mechs are ballistic and missile other than that i'll pretty much only use pulse.

However I believe generally things are unbalanced between the two sets. I believe building frankenmechs for IS should also be a good way to supplement the differences. Essentially turning everything into omnimechs.

So next question. What about quirks? I believe every mech should have quirks defined by model and omni parts swapped out should lower said quirks by a fraction.

[MovinTarget]

NobunagaReborn, on 27 December 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

This is why most my mechs are ballistic and missile other than that i'll pretty much only use pulse.

However I believe generally things are unbalanced between the two sets. I believe building frankenmechs for IS should also be a good way to supplement the differences. Essentially turning everything into omnimechs.

So next question. What about quirks? I believe every mech should have quirks defined by model and omni parts swapped out should lower said quirks by a fraction.

Not to mention all Lore-heads whose heads have not yet exploded to due to what they perceive as egregious transgressions in the game would simultaneously go *poof*

[NobunagaReborn]

But I still say having them would create a bit more balance. At lease add in centurion omni

[Wraith 1]

There are good reasons why you see Clan mechs using gauss+ERPPC more often than IS mechs, and the IS gauss seems to be bugged with regards to durability right now.

You're mostly right though, PPFLD is strong right now and IS should be using it more often.

[MovinTarget]

NobunagaReborn, on 27 December 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

But I still say having them would create a bit more balance. At lease add in centurion omni

The clan "omni" aspect is not what people typically have an issue with... they complain about the clan lasers having better range, even after the LPL nerf. The fact is, clan lasers burn for days and if you are paying attention, you can typically get our of their beams and avoid a portion of the damage.

Try to master using ER PPCs and Guass and suddenly you'll be trading close to equal with them (ER PPC splash damage notwithstanding) and you can typically have quirks that make your volleys move faster and farther even. Add in additional structure/armor quirks and it is absolutely reasonable to assert that it is plausible to hold ones own in trading vs clans.

[MischiefSC]

IS ERLLs are solid for trading too. There's both GHR and TDRs with burn duration quirks that bring the ERLLs down to 1 sec and their heat is only 8, vs the LPLs 7. You can run 5 very effectively and with the range quirks you can out-trade at 800-1000m with all but the absolute best gauss/ERPPC players. Rare to find someone who can poke, shoot a pre-charged gauss accurately and fade in less than 1 sec.

With the superior accuracy of hitscan lasers vs gauss charge issues and travel time variance on gauss and ERPPCs you can win those trades outside of the range IS normally has to get in to trade at.

With the structure quirks on both the GHR 5P and TDR of choice (many of which have some excellent quirks) a good team can absolutely build a functioning trade deck for IS play. You can even run a solid BJ3 2xERPPC poptart.

There's the potential to build some very solid and viable trade decks with IS mechs most people already have. 3 solid trade mechs and a WHR/BLR 2C LPL for mixing it up works just fine in the tonnage options for IS.

Run some 5 ERLL TDRs and GHRs in QP if you don't already. You'll be surprised. I actually like the quirks on the TDR better; the GHRs JJs and slim lines help it a lot but the TDRs better heat, range and cooldown quirks let it play further back while still being surprisingly good in a brawl.

Edited by MischiefSC, 28 December 2016 - 01:28 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Let's try this again, it's been a while -

Anyone up for putting a mixed team together with a couple trade mechs in the deck and dropping to settle out strats and positioning?

I tried a few times in Davion but couldn't get enough people together to fill 2/3 of a drop. So now with a mixed population we could get 8-12 IS players willing to play a trade deck? Honestly I think a good team who put some time in could run a flat out obscene win/loss and maybe even teach those skills to their teams and help the remaining IS diehards skill up.

Edited by MischiefSC, 28 December 2016 - 03:36 PM.

[DevlinCognito]

If you see any of IDI on, give us a poke, IDI love any opportunity to shoot each other.

[MischiefSC]

DevlinCognito, on 28 December 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

If you see any of IDI on, give us a poke, IDI love any opportunity to shoot each other.

I'm just talking grouping up for CW matches, just having 2 or 3 map appropriate poke mechs in the deck and playing accordingly.

You don't want to run a trade deck with a push team, it's a mess.

If the IDI guys want to put 2 or 3 trade mechs together they can put in a deck, maybe COMA and whoever else wants to, we can try to get a 8-12 man together set up for trading and see how that plays.

If EVIL experience is anything to go by the Clans have no experience playing against that, I think it will play really well - if we can practice it up and see how it plays.

[Tarl Cabot]

Wraith 1, on 27 December 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

There are good reasons why you see Clan mechs using gauss+ERPPC more often than IS mechs, and the IS gauss seems to be bugged with regards to durability right now.

You're mostly right though, PPFLD is strong right now and IS should be using it more often.

That and the cGR is lighter/less space, ERPPC/cLPL works, and cERML/cMPL complement it midrange while using the durable cXL. Dont forget free case in every slot so a GR explosion does not cause damage to other sections. While for the IS, the need for weight savings and some speed requires the use of the fragile isXL.

As for isGR, ERLL/LL/LPL complements it but generally need fragile isXL for weight savings and speed. Why put a GR on a battlemaster/banshee or other humanoid mechs with low slung ballistic hardpoints when they have all of those high mounted energy quirks?

When it was IS vs IS and most mechs were slow except for the lights and a few meds, it did not matter as much but IS vs Clans with their overall default higher speed due to the use of durable cXL, even with locked components most are still able to stuff lighter/smaller packaged, higher damage weapons in their omnis and Clan battlemechs.

As noted above, IS mechs tend to depend more on energy weapons more heavily than the Clans need to do cause they can build their energy weapons around their ballistics such as UAC 10s and GR.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 28 December 2016 - 07:30 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Well, i am doing this off my phone, but I seem to remember that with the last patch, IS GR got more durable and Clan GR got more fragile/critable... yes they has case in every component, but you can more easily halve their mech with a touchy GR in the ST.

To be fair i didn't check the tonnagw/slot differences for GR, just dmg/range... i will look that up when i get a chance...

The ERPPC might be the more equalized weapon between the 2, quirks notwithstanding...

[MovinTarget]

Okay, so yes, the Clan GR saves you 1 ton/3 slots but the IS gives you DOUBLE the health and I believe a far lower crit chance (I know I saw that in one of the recent patches).

So the IS GR has its own advantages despite the extra ton/space

[KinLuu]

The weapons are not the problem, the mechs are.

The IS has a very limited selection of mechs that are suited for Gauss + PPC builds. The reason for that is - like so often - the IS XL engine. To make a Gauss + PPC build work on anything smaller than an assault, you need to run a XL engine. It simply does not work well with torso mounted Gauss.

So you want arm-mounted gauss rifles.

This limits your choices significantly. The mechs that come to my mind are the Firebrand, the Dragon Slayer, the HGN-732B, the TDR-9S and the BLR-1G. And all of those have issues. On the TDR and the BLR, the Gauss and the PPCs are mounted rather far apart, which leads to convergence issues. The HGN is a Highlander. IMHO the Dragon Slayer looks like it would be the best choice.

But... would you really take it over a well build pure energy BLR-2C?

[Ssamout]

KinLuu, on 29 December 2016 - 11:34 PM, said:

The weapons are not the problem, the mechs are.

IMHO the Dragon Slayer looks like it would be the best choice.

But... would you really take it over a well build pure energy BLR-2C?

Good observations. I guess that's why DragonSlayer was the go to mech during first poptart era. Have not tried it now though. For me it still feels like 6xerLL battlemasters are superior just because big xl and those hardpoints make trading with erppc clanmechs soo easy.

If someone likes to try erppc on IS side, I'd recommend BJ-3. That 972m range with velocity quirks has surprised a lot of clanners lately..

[MischiefSC]

KinLuu, on 29 December 2016 - 11:34 PM, said:

The weapons are not the problem, the mechs are.

The IS has a very limited selection of mechs that are suited for Gauss + PPC builds. The reason for that is - like so often - the IS XL engine. To make a Gauss + PPC build work on anything smaller than an assault, you need to run a XL engine. It simply does not work well with torso mounted Gauss.

So you want arm-mounted gauss rifles.

This limits your choices significantly. The mechs that come to my mind are the Firebrand, the Dragon Slayer, the HGN-732B, the TDR-9S and the BLR-1G. And all of those have issues. On the TDR and the BLR, the Gauss and the PPCs are mounted rather far apart, which leads to convergence issues. The HGN is a Highlander. IMHO the Dragon Slayer looks like it would be the best choice.

But... would you really take it over a well build pure energy BLR-2C?

Don't overlook the ERLLs. There's a lot of options in the 60-70 ton range (TDR, interestingly enough) that can mount 5 and have 15% quirks on heat gen, cooldown and burn duration decrease. This gets the ERLLs running cooler than LPLs and a burn length of only 1.06 with a half-second faster cooldown, letting them cycle when mastered in less than 3 seconds.

With a max range with module of just under 800m you can effectively trade with gauss/ERPPC from 700-1K. Faster cooldown/better heat means you'll be in position, waiting when they come up to poke. The players who can actually poke and get an accurate shot then back into cover in less than 1 sec is a short list.

While it may not shake up the comp meta there's likely less than 10 people playing FW total who could do that consistently (probably closer to 5). At that 700+ range you're also totally out-ranging all the LPL/CERML or Gauss/LPL/CERML builds that most Clans take for 'trading' against IS because they're expecting you to need to close to 400-450 for IS LPLs.

I'm strongly of the opinion that a good IS ERLL trade deck could dominate against Clans, it would just need IS players willing/able to do long range trades. Run 2 ERLL traders and 2 LPL brawlers in your deck (at 265 tons this would be very easy) and you'd wreck face all day long.

Edited by MischiefSC, 01 January 2017 - 03:23 PM.

[MovinTarget]

KinLuu, on 29 December 2016 - 11:34 PM, said:

The weapons are not the problem, the mechs are.

The IS has a very limited selection of mechs that are suited for Gauss + PPC builds. The reason for that is - like so often - the IS XL engine. To make a Gauss + PPC build work on anything smaller than an assault, you need to run a XL engine. It simply does not work well with torso mounted Gauss.

So you want arm-mounted gauss rifles.

This limits your choices significantly. The mechs that come to my mind are the Firebrand, the Dragon Slayer, the HGN-732B, the TDR-9S and the BLR-1G. And all of those have issues. On the TDR and the BLR, the Gauss and the PPCs are mounted rather far apart, which leads to convergence issues. The HGN is a Highlander. IMHO the Dragon Slayer looks like it would be the best choice.

But... would you really take it over a well build pure energy BLR-2C?

I never said it *had* to be both at the same time... there are lots of heavies and assaults that can boat ER PPCs rather effectively.

And for the guy that pointed out certain mechs have good ERLL quirks, you are right, the duration quirks might be the key one, though the duration/range combo is most ideal...

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Once the new skill tree hits the live servers, we'll be able to quirk the heck out of any chassis we need to, which I imagine would be the ones that have the best hardpoint placement and numbers as well as base speed. Will be interesting to see where it goes after that...will a form of the poptart meta return if one can selectively buff PPC velocity/heat and JJ speed/height?