56 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

If you try taking GaussPPC on innersphere mechs you'll get wrecked. The IS doesn't have any good mechs for the PPFLD meta. The PPCs lack splash damage (which does more work than you might think), the IS generally has to mount gauss in a torso with an XL engine, and probably the biggest factor... lack of mobility.

So don't trade with clans unless

A: you're inside 300 meters.
B: you've already established, per situation, that you're winning trades.
C: they are utter potatoes and you're not.

[MischiefSC]

Tarogato, on 02 January 2017 - 03:57 AM, said:

If you try taking GaussPPC on innersphere mechs you'll get wrecked. The IS doesn't have any good mechs for the PPFLD meta. The PPCs lack splash damage (which does more work than you might think), the IS generally has to mount gauss in a torso with an XL engine, and probably the biggest factor... lack of mobility.

So don't trade with clans unless

A: you're inside 300 meters.
B: you've already established, per situation, that you're winning trades.
C: they are utter potatoes and you're not.

Handful of good IS trade builds and IS ERLLs on a well quirked mech can be good -

But the long range trade game is often about numbers. If the Clan team is 5 or 6 people set for range trades and your side is 3 people you're going to get rekt. The pole game is a math game and it favors numbers.

If you're in a team set up to trade, great. EVIL is about the only active Clan team set to trade as a team. There's room for an IS trade team but everyone needs to be together on it. Mixed trade/push don't work.

Otherwise a good speed synergy deck can push and LPL very effectively and more reliably. It's why it's the standard.

[MovinTarget]

MischiefSC, on 03 January 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

Handful of good IS trade builds and IS ERLLs on a well quirked mech can be good -

But the long range trade game is often about numbers. If the Clan team is 5 or 6 people set for range trades and your side is 3 people you're going to get rekt. The pole game is a math game and it favors numbers.

If you're in a team set up to trade, great. EVIL is about the only active Clan team set to trade as a team. There's room for an IS trade team but everyone needs to be together on it. Mixed trade/push don't work.

Otherwise a good speed synergy deck can push and LPL very effectively and more reliably. It's why it's the standard.

Many clan teams may not go set to trade, but the smart solos sure as heck do... They're the guys mowing down IS brawlers from behind the line while IS tries to fight with clams that actually get in their range....

Edited by MovinTarget, 13 January 2017 - 07:50 AM.

[Starbomber109]

What does the IS trade deck look like?

WHM-7S(5xERLL), GHR-5P(5xERLL), QDK-5k(4xERLL), THD-5S(4xERLL) ?

Not bad, but I can see it losing certain modes very quickly. Skirmish Assault and Invasion would be cake, but you might need a better deck for Domination and Conquest.

[KinLuu]

It depends more on the map and less on the gamemode.

For example, on Frozen City domination a ERLLas focused dropdeck works great, much better than on almost all other maps and modes. It also can work nice on HPG and on Polar, unless you face Clans that know how to poptart.

Edited by KinLuu, 13 January 2017 - 10:32 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Starbomber109, on 13 January 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

What does the IS trade deck look like?

WHM-7S(5xERLL), GHR-5P(5xERLL), QDK-5k(4xERLL), THD-5S(4xERLL) ?

Not bad, but I can see it losing certain modes very quickly. Skirmish Assault and Invasion would be cake, but you might need a better deck for Domination and Conquest.

Map more important than mode. Also the BJ1x 2xerppc poptart (4xsmls for FW if it comes to the push).

I usually run a poptarts, 2x erll boats and a 5lpl BLR because at some point you're going to be cleaning up and it fits the mobility profile.

If the enemy poptarts you just bull back to 800-900m and stay mobile. Hill hump as a drive-by. Don't poke up and back, be at an angle. You can count on one hand the FP players who can poptart accurately at 900m with PPCs and Gauss on the same target.

Poptart ing is a real issue at more like 600m, at which point you should be pushing with LPLs anyway. A good IS long range trade deck vs Clans wants 800m-1k. CERLL lights ayers are crap vs duration quirked IS ERLLs and at that range accuracy on gauss/er ppcs is less reliable than hitscan.

[TheSteelRhino]

I love PPCs. PPC's are great. However, it would be nice if IS ERPPCs did the same damage as CLAN ER PPCs

They hit you for 15 a shot (yes some of it is "splash" dmg). IS hit's for 10.

Honestly, considering IS ER PPCS weight more, and take up more critical slots, they should just hit for 15, or at least 12.5 and do the same heat.

IS ER PPCS generate 13.5 heat, Clan generate 14. (not a huge advantage here)

Now, IS mechs do get some help from quirks as far as velocity, cool down, and heat go.

But there isn't a quirk that gets you 50% more damage per shot.

Just something to keep in mind.

[MovinTarget]

TheSteelRhino, on 13 January 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

I love PPCs. PPC's are great. However, it would be nice if IS ERPPCs did the same damage as CLAN ER PPCs

They hit you for 15 a shot (yes some of it is "splash" dmg). IS hit's for 10.

Honestly, considering IS ER PPCS weight more, and take up more critical slots, they should just hit for 15, or at least 12.5 and do the same heat.

IS ER PPCS generate 13.5 heat, Clan generate 14. (not a huge advantage here)

Now, IS mechs do get some help from quirks as far as velocity, cool down, and heat go.

But there isn't a quirk that gets you 50% more damage per shot.

Just something to keep in mind.

And range...

The one thing IS doesn't have is a ton of variety in the poptart build *with* such quirks...

However, a lot of people confuse poptarting with "Jump up high and shoot" and forget they are actually quite hittable while they are stuck in the air... unable to manuever...

[Stormie]

BJ-3 with 2xERPPC has been very strong for me.
optimum range out to 972m, with 50% velocity buff, and 30% heatgen.

[Buster Machine 0]

LPLs, the best way to beat the trade. Works well against poptarts with some practice, sorta like ***** shooting.

[Grixa19]

Oh cmon guys. Every noob who plays on IS side knows:

For long range: Grasshooper, 6ERLL = Fire only 3 of them in 0,5 seconds = aprox >120 damage in 5 seconds, without overheating.

For medium range: 4LPL 3ML, Clans have their ERMLs? Fear no more u can shoot and twist, cause their laser duration is 100% longer then urs...

For brawl: Stalker, Cyclops with maximum SRM6! U can kill 2 their Direwolfes made of paper in no time!

For total noobs: Pick Trial stalker! Stay behind ur team, chainfire those 4 LRM10, Hold fire key! Clan AMS??? Dafag with them! Clan AMS = AcMSo (Anti clan Missile System only).

[Natural Predator]

Moving target is spot on. From the clan perspective over 300-600 meters for me is the sweet spot. I'll take whatever trades you want to make at that range because I know I'm gonna pop you for 68 damage, preferably in a side torso. The PPC and gauss builds are great for hurting me before I can close to range. The summoner loyalty quirked for PPC pods only has a range of 931 meters with a tc 5. So if you take quirked PPC or extended large lasers or gauss you can trade pretty well with me. I've had some great games against IDI. If your Kurita I would strongly reccomend hooking up with these guys.

Edited by Ragnar Baron Leiningen, 20 January 2017 - 09:25 AM.

[Kimberm1911]

The OP's argument in a nutshell.

Don't complain about Clan lasers despite the fact they are clearly better than IS varieties. Get a Gauss Rifle and PPCs and git gud. The IS Goose waffle and PPCs are just as good as the clan ones.

End OP's argument.

Sure, from a purely damage, range, and PPFLD perspective yes, they are exactly the same. If you take into account the weight, slot usage, ability for clans to run a Clan XL, 2 critical slot double heatsinks, better Jump Jets, and generally nicer hardpoints to successfully run a Gauss/PPC PPFLD build, then IS is still outclassed by Clans. Ever try a King Crab with Dual Gauss Dual ERPPC's? Sure, it's not bad, but compare it to the similarly tonned and armed Kodiak, and it's a joke. Sluggish, with less ammo, heatsinks, and in order to not slog around the battlefield requires an XL. Or, consider the fact that clan mediums can run gauss single ERPPC builds and most IS mechs can not do so effectively.

Oh, and about those Clan lasers with their "super long" burn times. The long burn time is irrelevant when you take into account all the benefits that clan mechs have. In addition, it takes the same amount of time for a clan lasers to deal the SAME damage as IS lasers. You just have to hold the beam on target longer to get EXTRA damage on target compared to the IS mech. In addition, most IS mechs don't have the amazing range quirks you are complaining about. Strap 6 ER larges on anything other than a Stalker or Grasshopper, and it sucks. Plug on 4 ERLL onto ANY clan heavy and it is effective, and generally faster with more heat sinks and targeting computers.

I have played numerous Inner Sphere and Clan designs, before you continue to complain, why don't you go and try out some Inner sphere mechs. My guess is that the majority of people complaining about the IS being OP, haven't played an IS mech since they had Knight Errant as their title.

Edited by Kimberm1911, 20 January 2017 - 10:59 AM.

[KinLuu]

There are a lot more viable ERLLas boats than just the Grashopper and the Stalker.

[Crockdaddy]

IS has 3 practical choices.

ERLL Boat for ranged maps.
LPL/MLorMPL builds for medium maps
Full brawl for uh Emerald Taigia (sp?)

ERPPC / Gauss is not a practical choice for IS. The Dragon Slayer works but it generally underperforms by a decent margin against its clan counterparts.

All these arguments will become moot in February anyway. I would guess only specialized high mounted geometry mechs will see much use in the future ... but that is largely the case now anyway.

[MischiefSC]

Crockdaddy, on 20 January 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

IS has 3 practical choices.

ERLL Boat for ranged maps.
LPL/MLorMPL builds for medium maps
Full brawl for uh Emerald Taigia (sp?)

ERPPC / Gauss is not a practical choice for IS. The Dragon Slayer works but it generally underperforms by a decent margin against its clan counterparts.

All these arguments will become moot in February anyway. I would guess only specialized high mounted geometry mechs will see much use in the future ... but that is largely the case now anyway.

It's why I don't own a GHR 5P. After the skill tree revamp it'll have no value/purpose as the better mounts on the 5H will make it irrelevant.

[Roland09]

Grixa19, on 20 January 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

Oh cmon guys. Every noob who plays on IS side knows:

For long range: Grasshooper, 6ERLL = Fire only 3 of them in 0,5 seconds = aprox >120 damage in 5 seconds, without overheating.

For medium range: 4LPL 3ML, Clans have their ERMLs? Fear no more u can shoot and twist, cause their laser duration is 100% longer then urs...

For brawl: Stalker, Cyclops with maximum SRM6! U can kill 2 their Direwolfes made of paper in no time!

For total noobs: Pick Trial stalker! Stay behind ur team, chainfire those 4 LRM10, Hold fire key! Clan AMS??? Dafag with them! Clan AMS = AcMSo (Anti clan Missile System only).

Pro tip #1: Put armor on your Dire Wolves made of paper. 'Structure tanking' may be your favorite tactic in EVE Online, but it won't work in MWO.

Pro tip #2: Make sure the armor is not all on your back, like you normally do for your gen rushing builds.

=> Problem solved!

I'd like to see a viable Grasshopper build with 6x ERLL which does not overheat. Care to post a smurfy link?

[MovinTarget]

Roland09, on 22 January 2017 - 06:24 PM, said:

Pro tip #1: Put armor on your Dire Wolves made of paper. 'Structure tanking' may be your favorite tactic in EVE Online, but it won't work in MWO.

Pro tip #2: Make sure the armor is not all on your back, like you normally do for your gen rushing builds.

=> Problem solved!

I'd like to see a viable Grasshopper build with 6x ERLL which does not overheat. Care to post a smurfy link?

If you don't alpha, its not that bad... grouped 3x3 or 4x2(hotter but more damage on initial volley)...

Kind of like the nova with 12 small lasers...

[MischiefSC]

MovinTarget, on 22 January 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

If you don't alpha, its not that bad... grouped 3x3 or 4x2(hotter but more damage on initial volley)...

Kind of like the nova with 12 small lasers...

5 er large, more DHS, bigger engine, more profitsssssss......

[TheSteelRhino]

best IS weps at this point are Large pulse lasers..probably followed by large/er large.